I mean, if we don't get instant impact, just label most or all young Packers busts.
It's not like we ever developed anyone.
Why coach? Just fill all the needs GM!?
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It's not like we ever developed anyone.
Why coach? Just fill all the needs GM!?
Yes. I have considered it.Yoop wrote: ↑06 Aug 2021 17:23so you don't consider that QB is the ONE position where most need Grooming, each position has a different learning curve.
That thinking is so wrong.
It's a gray world, you paint me like I'am stupid, how insulting, you know how this works, act like it and we can have a conversation, other wise, you know what you can do.salmar80 wrote: ↑06 Aug 2021 16:38I mean, if we don't get instant impact, just label most or all young Packers busts.
It's not like we ever developed anyone.
Why coach? Just fill all the needs GM!?
why don't you go look at bust rate of each position, then just maybe you'll know what I'am talking about, QB is the highest, then comes DT, so hardly any of them start and do well as rookies, and need grooming, and less so with edge rushers, CB's who often do start and play as rookies.
so you need to rethink cause your wrong.
Depends on the argument right?Yoop wrote: ↑06 Aug 2021 17:23so you don't consider that QB is the ONE position where most need Grooming, each position has a different learning curve.
If it's about Rodgers and Love, of course the QB don't need grooming! That's why the GM deserves to be fired right?! He was going to kick Rodgers out of town.
If it's this argument, then of course the QB needs grooming. But not edge rusher. That's for darned sure.
So are you advocating we should have drafted a different position that, according to you, is proven to require more time to "groom"? Wouldn't the result have been the same? They would have been on the bench just like Gary was in 2019.Yoop wrote: ↑06 Aug 2021 17:36why don't you go look at bust rate of each position, then just maybe you'll know what I'am talking about, QB is the highest, then comes DT, so hardly any of them start and do well as rookies, and need grooming, and less so with edge rushers, CB's who often do start and play as rookies.
so you need to rethink cause your wrong.
I really don't know where you are going with this.
And don't get me wrong. I'm not a Gutey defender.
At this point I have said I am at the wait and see. I will judge the Gary pick after the 2022 season.
But what I am adamant about is if Gary turns out to be awesome, he will be a GREAT pick regardless of where he was taken or how soon of an impact he had. If Gary brings it in 21 and 22 and then we sign him to a 2nd contract and he still produces and even gets better....he will be a great pick.
I feel there is an obsession about getting great rookie contract production because they are cheap. And I agree that is nice.
But what is also important as that the 2nd contract players play to their contract.
Like I didn't give a rats a$$ how much Z Smith was paid in 2019. Because he was an All Pro.
At this point I have said I am at the wait and see. I will judge the Gary pick after the 2022 season.
But what I am adamant about is if Gary turns out to be awesome, he will be a GREAT pick regardless of where he was taken or how soon of an impact he had. If Gary brings it in 21 and 22 and then we sign him to a 2nd contract and he still produces and even gets better....he will be a great pick.
I feel there is an obsession about getting great rookie contract production because they are cheap. And I agree that is nice.
But what is also important as that the 2nd contract players play to their contract.
Like I didn't give a rats a$$ how much Z Smith was paid in 2019. Because he was an All Pro.
WTF are you even talking about? is it happy hour where your at? between you and Sal I can't tell whos the drunkestgo pak go wrote: ↑06 Aug 2021 17:37Depends on the argument right?
If it's about Rodgers and Love, of course the QB don't need grooming! That's why the GM deserves to be fired right?! He was going to kick Rodgers out of town.
If it's this argument, then of course the QB needs grooming. But not edge rusher. That's for darned sure.
FFS we all know that earlier picks do tend to need less coaching then loater picks who do need a season or 2, maybe even 3 to even play a backup roll, the earlier picks ya hope start or play a backup roll sooner ( wow rocket freaking science)
I would never agree to your reasoning, heres why, U just spent a 12 slot pick on a player your coaching up for another team if you can't afford his second contract demands, you lost both of his first two seasons and paid a boot load of Cash to the UDF that has played in front of him, and probably wasn't as good, but then you'd look like a fool and played a cheap rookie instead, Guty, if he like Gary so much should have only went after one Smith boy, nothing about the Gary pick made sense to me, should have taken the DT, he would have helped us some his first year.go pak go wrote: ↑06 Aug 2021 17:48And don't get me wrong. I'm not a Gutey defender.
At this point I have said I am at the wait and see. I will judge the Gary pick after the 2022 season.
But what I am adamant about is if Gary turns out to be awesome, he will be a GREAT pick regardless of where he was taken or how soon of an impact he had. If Gary brings it in 21 and 22 and then we sign him to a 2nd contract and he still produces and even gets better....he will be a great pick.
I feel there is an obsession about getting great rookie contract production because they are cheap. And I agree that is nice.
But what is also important as that the 2nd contract players play to their contract.
Like I didn't give a rats a$$ how much Z Smith was paid in 2019. Because he was an All Pro.
almost every player is better year 3 then they are as rookies, but that doesn't mean Rookies don't start and play well year 1, what you and other here are and have done is protect this draft pick, and it is insane, who in there right mind expects to wait till year 3 for a 12 slot pick to start, unless it's a QB, NO ONE outside of this forum.
if Gary could drop and cover P. Smith would still be digging splinters out of his backside, hell I'd wager Gary could have benched him late his rookie season, Gary didn't need all this coaching up to do what he did late last season, that was just a cover story to make P. Smiths contract look valid, if we'd have had Keven Green coaching OLB's P. smith would have never kept Gary on the bench, and thats the crux of this argument, if we didn't plan to use Gary for 3 freaking years then why draft him in the first place, this was never about Gary, the football player, it's about using such a high resource on a backup player.
Yoop. At the end of the day, I want field tilters.
If I get them where they are awesome in Year 1 and have a progressive rise each year to All Pro like Jaire Alexander....AWESOME. I mean I would take a Jaire Alexander literally every draft.
If I have to wait a few years for them to be awesome like Aaron Rodgers, Jordy Nelson, Davante Adams, Kenny Clark, etc. ....Great! I still have a field tilter. The key on the 2nd part is when we do pay them, they better play to their 2nd contract.
The danger and "when the team can't afford to keep all its players" really becomes a noticeable problem when your 2nd and 3rd contract players are not playing up to their value.
But no. Waiting for later rounds = a great player just taking longer to develop is absolutely not true. Being drafted in later rounds essentially just means you will likely be out of the league in your 4th year. Late round picks don't take longer to develop as a whole (well they do). Late round picks simply don't have the talent and don't last long enough to ever even be developed.
If I get them where they are awesome in Year 1 and have a progressive rise each year to All Pro like Jaire Alexander....AWESOME. I mean I would take a Jaire Alexander literally every draft.
If I have to wait a few years for them to be awesome like Aaron Rodgers, Jordy Nelson, Davante Adams, Kenny Clark, etc. ....Great! I still have a field tilter. The key on the 2nd part is when we do pay them, they better play to their 2nd contract.
The danger and "when the team can't afford to keep all its players" really becomes a noticeable problem when your 2nd and 3rd contract players are not playing up to their value.
But no. Waiting for later rounds = a great player just taking longer to develop is absolutely not true. Being drafted in later rounds essentially just means you will likely be out of the league in your 4th year. Late round picks don't take longer to develop as a whole (well they do). Late round picks simply don't have the talent and don't last long enough to ever even be developed.
Last edited by go pak go on 07 Aug 2021 06:58, edited 1 time in total.
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bill ... uaranteed/
And just like that, Aaron is already grossly underpaid.
Gotta admit that Mahomes is going to look like a steal very soon.
And just like that, Aaron is already grossly underpaid.
Gotta admit that Mahomes is going to look like a steal very soon.
Bills, Josh Allen agree to terms on six-year extension worth reported $258 million, $150 million guaranteed
Josh Allen's Contract is set up similarly to Rodgers's contract in 2018.
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No, I think it depends on the player; some QBs like Trevor Lawrence can just be thrown in. To my surprise, Justin Herbert apparently didn't need grooming, either. Bosa does not need grooming, Gary (or for that matter, Brian Burns, a guy who many folks here wanted instead that year and also a non-need EDGE) did need it. That's why Bosa went earlier even though all three players can be perennial ProBowlers.Yoop wrote: ↑06 Aug 2021 17:23so you don't consider that QB is the ONE position where most need Grooming, each position has a different learning curve.
go pak go said he wants field-tilters. I agree. Whatever you want to call it: superstar, Dominant... that's what I want. And I am willing to pass up immediate good/solid and wait a few seasons to get it. Superstars win you championships.
Gary has the ability to be a Clowney type difference-maker, which is way more valuable than some one-trick-pony receiving TE like Fant or basically anyone else left on the board at 12 that draft.
“Most other nations don't allow a terrorist to be their leader.”
“... Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists.”—Magneto
“... Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists.”—Magneto
I am not a Gute defender but I am definitely a Gary pick defender. That was one of my favorite prospects that we drafted in recent memory (we usually take pretty unexciting prospects).
#GaryGang (<-- I founded that his rookie year, need to bring it back for his breakout season this year).
#GaryGang (<-- I founded that his rookie year, need to bring it back for his breakout season this year).
“Most other nations don't allow a terrorist to be their leader.”
“... Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists.”—Magneto
“... Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists.”—Magneto
I didn't even mention Z Smith, or the money we paid him, course we'll be doing the same with Gary in a couple years and he might not even be as good, Gary was stuck behind a player we didn't need, Gary could have started as a rookie and by the end of his rookie season would have probably been as good as he was to close out last season, P. Smith became a luxury player we could have done without.go pak go wrote: ↑06 Aug 2021 17:48And don't get me wrong. I'm not a Gutey defender.
At this point I have said I am at the wait and see. I will judge the Gary pick after the 2022 season.
But what I am adamant about is if Gary turns out to be awesome, he will be a GREAT pick regardless of where he was taken or how soon of an impact he had. If Gary brings it in 21 and 22 and then we sign him to a 2nd contract and he still produces and even gets better....he will be a great pick.
I feel there is an obsession about getting great rookie contract production because they are cheap. And I agree that is nice.
But what is also important as that the 2nd contract players play to their contract.
Like I didn't give a rats a$$ how much Z Smith was paid in 2019. Because he was an All Pro.
it was the same with Nelson and Adams, course we couldn't wait for Adams to develop because he ended up being the most able to play healthy receiver we had left, and he did pretty well even though he played banged up.
again you bring a QB and DT into this conversation and you know both positions, specially QB normally take longer to transition to the pro game.
then you mention Alexander as though he's our only high pick that was ready to start as a rookie, how about Savage, Jenkins, even King, lots of rookies start every year and play well enough to warrent it, your acting as though this is not true.
Our 2019 season is not our fun 2019 season if Gary is forced as the 2nd starting role. It just isn't. Preston Smith those 1st 8 games was our best player on the team. We have more losses those 1st 8 games if we didn't have Preston. We are only saying we don't want Preston now because of hindsight of 2020. But he was absolutely worth every penny in 2019. Especially those 1st 8 games.Yoop wrote: ↑07 Aug 2021 07:00
I didn't even mention Z Smith, or the money we paid him, course we'll be doing the same with Gary in a couple years and he might not even be as good, Gary was stuck behind a player we didn't need, Gary could have started as a rookie and by the end of his rookie season would have probably been as good as he was to close out last season, P. Smith became a luxury player we could have done without.
I don't know what you are getting at here or what your point is here. The hope was Adams would step into that #3 role in 2015 behind Cobb and Nelson. Injuries pressed the issue and Adams was forced into the spotlight with James Jones and showed he was absolutely not ready. He had a bad injury himself and the game was simply bigger than him in 2015. Nelson didn't start really contributing beyond MVS level numbers until his 4th season.
Yes they exist. We get them occasionally. I think Savage was pretty blah his rookie year. His last 8 games of 2020 were like "okay! Here we go!" Savage was definitely not in the same region as Jaire in terms of being a good rookie. Not even close. And I agree with Elgton Jenkins. He is probably going to end up being one of the best draft picks in my lifetime. Kevin King looked good against Atlanta and MN his rookie year and then did what King does...got hurt. I wouldn't call King's rookie season or 2nd season a success. 2019 was. 2020 wasn't.
But I think Savage is a great example actually. If we are calling Savage a successful draft pick because he simply started his rookie season I have an issue with that. Just because a player exists in a spot doesn't mean they are changing a game. Savage did nothing to elevate our defense in 2019. He did start elevating our defense after Halloween 2020. THAT's what I want from my high end picks. Savage and Gary literally had the same impact on the Packers in 2019 - virtually nothing.
But just because the Packers, especially Gute, has made some AMAZING draft picks, I don't know why you are trying to pivot that argument on Gary being a bad pick. Like it literally makes no sense.
Come talk to me after this season about the Gary pick. I will listen more then because it's a conversation actually worth having at that point.
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I like the MLF and Gute results. They draft some for longer term development when it is warranted and they draft some for immediate need or their players produce immediately. We have a nice mixture of both. That's what healthy teams have.
I'm just really excited for Gary this year. Also nervous too to be honest. He has been dominating practice but he did that last year. He needs to finally get results this year. I would say the famous yoop patened "double digit sack and 70+ pressures" is a good benchmark. Basically take his last season production and double it.
very few DT's do well year one, however that kid that went a few picks after Gary, maybe slot 17 or so didn't do to bad and would have helped us more then Gary did.Labrev wrote: ↑06 Aug 2021 21:40No, I think it depends on the player; some QBs like Trevor Lawrence can just be thrown in. To my surprise, Justin Herbert apparently didn't need grooming, either. Bosa does not need grooming, Gary (or for that matter, Brian Burns, a guy who many folks here wanted instead that year and also a non-need EDGE) did need it. That's why Bosa went earlier even though all three players can be perennial ProBowlers.
go pak go said he wants field-tilters. I agree. Whatever you want to call it: superstar, Dominant... that's what I want. And I am willing to pass up immediate good/solid and wait a few seasons to get it. Superstars win you championships.
Gary has the ability to be a Clowney type difference-maker, which is way more valuable than some one-trick-pony receiving TE like Fant or basically anyone else left on the board at 12 that draft.
Clowney is a good example of what I'am talking about, didn't do much first 2 years, then did well the next 3, one on a tag season ( If I remember correctly) he goes to Seattle, then back to Houston and didn't earn his contract there for Seattle or last year for Houston again either, I hope Gary does better then Clowney.
Marcus Sweat did pretty well as a rookie, havn't followed him since, to tell you the truth once Guty bought the Smith Bros. my interest for a edge rusher completely vanished, I liked Fant and that DT ( Campbell might be his name) I always consider rounding out the roster first before making luxury picks, and that is exactly how I looked at Gary, a player that could have started as a rookie but wouldn't because we just spent so much money on the Smith boys, just poor choice considering the slot value, as I said we probably could have traded back, got more draft ammo and taken Campbell the DT a few slots later, who knows he might have slowed down the rushing attack versus SF in the play offs.
why don't you go and count up the rookies that start from the first two rounds of every draft class, hardly any are PB players there first year, but half of en start sometime as rookies and play better, much better then the players they replace, enough with your qualifiers for christ sacks, Savage did well as a rookie, when you act as though only Alexander was worthy to start you dead end this conversation, just insane.go pak go wrote: ↑07 Aug 2021 07:41Our 2019 season is not our fun 2019 season if Gary is forced as the 2nd starting role. It just isn't. Preston Smith those 1st 8 games was our best player on the team. We have more losses those 1st 8 games if we didn't have Preston. We are only saying we don't want Preston now because of hindsight of 2020. But he was absolutely worth every penny in 2019. Especially those 1st 8 games.Yoop wrote: ↑07 Aug 2021 07:00
I didn't even mention Z Smith, or the money we paid him, course we'll be doing the same with Gary in a couple years and he might not even be as good, Gary was stuck behind a player we didn't need, Gary could have started as a rookie and by the end of his rookie season would have probably been as good as he was to close out last season, P. Smith became a luxury player we could have done without.
I don't know what you are getting at here or what your point is here. The hope was Adams would step into that #3 role in 2015 behind Cobb and Nelson. Injuries pressed the issue and Adams was forced into the spotlight with James Jones and showed he was absolutely not ready. He had a bad injury himself and the game was simply bigger than him in 2015. Nelson didn't start really contributing beyond MVS level numbers until his 4th season.
Yes they exist. We get them occasionally. I think Savage was pretty blah his rookie year. His last 8 games of 2020 were like "okay! Here we go!" Savage was definitely not in the same region as Jaire in terms of being a good rookie. Not even close. And I agree with Elgton Jenkins. He is probably going to end up being one of the best draft picks in my lifetime. Kevin King looked good against Atlanta and MN his rookie year and then did what King does...got hurt. I wouldn't call King's rookie season or 2nd season a success. 2019 was. 2020 wasn't.
But I think Savage is a great example actually. If we are calling Savage a successful draft pick because he simply started his rookie season I have an issue with that. Just because a player exists in a spot doesn't mean they are changing a game. Savage did nothing to elevate our defense in 2019. He did start elevating our defense after Halloween 2020. THAT's what I want from my high end picks. Savage and Gary literally had the same impact on the Packers in 2019 - virtually nothing.
But just because the Packers, especially Gute, has made some AMAZING draft picks, I don't know why you are trying to pivot that argument on Gary being a bad pick. Like it literally makes no sense.
Come talk to me after this season about the Gary pick. I will listen more then because it's a conversation actually worth having at that point.
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I like the MLF and Gute results. They draft some for longer term development when it is warranted and they draft some for immediate need or their players produce immediately. We have a nice mixture of both. That's what healthy teams have.
I'm just really excited for Gary this year. Also nervous too to be honest. He has been dominating practice but he did that last year. He needs to finally get results this year. I would say the famous yoop patened "double digit sack and 70+ pressures" is a good benchmark. Basically take his last season production and double it.
Adams did well his 2nd year becoming Rodgers go to guy often, and with the injury, and the only reason Nelson was held back, same with Cobb, and again Adams 2nd season was the talent in front, once that talent wasn't available Adams was given more oppertunity, same thing with Gary, and here you are again trying to pigeon hole me into me saying GARY THE PLAYER WAS A BAD PICK , never said that, what I said was we could have used that pick on a player that would have helped more as a rookie, big difference.
and players do not have to tilt the field as rookies or be ready to to start as rookies, this is YOU again inserting YOUR opinion as though it's fact, and it's not, lots of rookies start every year and simply are a improvement over the players they replace, then improve the longer they play (hopefully)
then you say this and act as though Gary hasn't deserved to start till now, P. Smith should have been unloaded prior to last season, and since this FO was so sold on Gary prior to the draft then why even bring P. Smith aboard.go pak go wrote: ↑07 Aug 2021 07:41I'm just really excited for Gary this year. Also nervous too to be honest. He has been dominating practice but he did that last year. He needs to finally get results this year. I would say the famous yoop patened "double digit sack and 70+ pressures" is a good benchmark. Basically take his last season production and double it.
ya I like most of what Guty has done to, liked most of what Ted did early on as well, where you and I differ is that I don't agree with EVERYTHING either did and I voice it, and Gary and Love both might turn out great, but both cost big time resources and will sit long into there shelf life.