Think we had a thread on this, but I couldn't find it.
Few quick thoughts even pre draft.
We are bringing back all our starters, even bringing back our top 8 OL in terms of snaps (Bak, Jenkins, Myers, JRJ, Nijman, Newman, Tom, Hanson).
And we have Sean Rhyan.
So I'd like to know what our preferred 5 starters are. One of Nijman, Tom, JRJ and Myers won't be starting if Bak and Elgton are healthy. Maybe Jenkins, Tom or even JRJ could play center if Myers isn't cutting it? Is Nijman more valuable as a swing tackle? Maybe Tom gets a bit of a sophomore slump or JRJ is just the worst of the 4.
And then a quick look to 2024.
URFA's: Yosh Nijman, Jon Runyan Jr, Jake Hanson
Bakhtiari comes with $21.4M in cap savings upon trade or release, that has to be appealing. That basically leaves us with.
Tom - Jenkins - Myers - Rhyan - Newman?
Now by 2024, we'll have two drafts, ability to resign Nijman or JRJ or find a way to keep Bak. And frankly I think we might be players in the FA market a little next year.
Re: Offensive Line
Posted: 19 Apr 2023 11:35
by BSA
We can come up with quite a few scenarios with all these guys, but I just chose the weakest link without concern for position
JRJ wins that prize and upgrading RG would make life easier for Myers and the RT.
We can come up with quite a few scenarios with all these guys, but I just chose the weakest link without concern for position
JRJ wins that prize and upgrading RG would make life easier for Myers and the RT.
I voted JRJ too. My gut tells me it will probably unfortunately be Tom, I think Myers was probably the worst last year in a vacuum. But players do progress and heal and what not.
Mike Wahle did a Myers breakdown on his podcast, but I can't seem to locate it. My take away was - lots of little things to clean up- but with coaching and reps he should be fine. Fingers crossed on Myers
Re: Offensive Line
Posted: 19 Apr 2023 12:11
by Labrev
Even our slow coaches eventually realized Tom is one of our best five guys and gave him snaps over vets. He'll be RT, relegating Nijman to the bench.
I acknowledge Tom is a more useful guy to have on the bench because he can play all five, but they say they want the best five guys playing and Tom is easily #3. Barring injuries, I expect the 1s at OL to be: Bakh-Jenkins-Myers-JRJ-Tom.
Re: Offensive Line
Posted: 19 Apr 2023 12:11
by Labrev
Let me also take this opportunity to reiterate: we need to add some depth and competition at IOL. Myers was shaky, may not be the guy at C, JRJ is a UFA not really worth paying top-dollar to keep around, let him walk and take the Comp Pick on him (no shame in this, 2.5 years as a solid starter and getting back a higher pick was great use of a Round 6 selection).
More bluntly, we can't let no-name DTs on the worst defense in the league embarrass our OL in an elimination game again. I hope our FO is as haunted by that showing as I am.
We can come up with quite a few scenarios with all these guys, but I just chose the weakest link without concern for position
JRJ wins that prize and upgrading RG would make life easier for Myers and the RT.
I voted JRJ too. My gut tells me it will probably unfortunately be Tom, I think Myers was probably the worst last year in a vacuum. But players do progress and heal and what not.
what??? not Toms, did you read what general manager Labrev said about Toms
I think we keep everyone, but agree Runyan has been the weak link, Meyers had a bad season and I think much of that was coaching, and simply a 2nd season let down because of over all poor OL chemistry, he seemed better as a rookie.
Let me also take this opportunity to reiterate: we need to add some depth and competition at IOL. Myers was shaky, may not be the guy at C, JRJ is a UFA not really worth paying top-dollar to keep around, let him walk and take the Comp Pick on him (no shame in this, 2.5 years as a solid starter and getting back a higher pick was great use of a Round 6 selection).
More bluntly, we can't let no-name DTs on the worst defense in the league embarrass our OL in an elimination game again. I hope our FO is as haunted by that showing as I am.
why I said it would be hard to pass on either of Johnson or Skoronski, both are inside/outside capable
Let me also take this opportunity to reiterate: we need to add some depth and competition at IOL. Myers was shaky, may not be the guy at C, JRJ is a UFA not really worth paying top-dollar to keep around, let him walk and take the Comp Pick on him (no shame in this, 2.5 years as a solid starter and getting back a higher pick was great use of a Round 6 selection).
More bluntly, we can't let no-name DTs on the worst defense in the league embarrass our OL in an elimination game again. I hope our FO is as haunted by that showing as I am.
why I said it would be hard to pass on either of Johnson or Skoronski, both are inside/outside capable
Skoronski yes, he'd be a nice piece to line up wherever. Johnson is a tackle all the way to me though. I would rather try Wright at RG, he's a bit tall for it at 6'5 but has good mass and mentality. I think I would even prefer Broderick Jones inside to Johnson.
Let me also take this opportunity to reiterate: we need to add some depth and competition at IOL. Myers was shaky, may not be the guy at C, JRJ is a UFA not really worth paying top-dollar to keep around, let him walk and take the Comp Pick on him (no shame in this, 2.5 years as a solid starter and getting back a higher pick was great use of a Round 6 selection).
More bluntly, we can't let no-name DTs on the worst defense in the league embarrass our OL in an elimination game again. I hope our FO is as haunted by that showing as I am.
why I said it would be hard to pass on either of Johnson or Skoronski, both are inside/outside capable
Skoronski yes, he'd be a nice piece to line up wherever. Johnson is a tackle all the way to me though. I would rather try Wright at RG, he's a bit tall for it at 6'5 but has good mass and mentality. I think I would even prefer Broderick Jones inside to Johnson.
Johnson would be week 1 starting RG, imo.
And he’d get his LT shot well before he needs to sign an extension or get his 5th year option, position based.
Let me also take this opportunity to reiterate: we need to add some depth and competition at IOL. Myers was shaky, may not be the guy at C, JRJ is a UFA not really worth paying top-dollar to keep around, let him walk and take the Comp Pick on him (no shame in this, 2.5 years as a solid starter and getting back a higher pick was great use of a Round 6 selection).
More bluntly, we can't let no-name DTs on the worst defense in the league embarrass our OL in an elimination game again. I hope our FO is as haunted by that showing as I am.
why I said it would be hard to pass on either of Johnson or Skoronski, both are inside/outside capable
Skoronski yes, he'd be a nice piece to line up wherever. Johnson is a tackle all the way to me though. I would rather try Wright at RG, he's a bit tall for it at 6'5 but has good mass and mentality. I think I would even prefer Broderick Jones inside to Johnson.
if we took Johnson this year he's be our starting RG, or maybe RT, same with Skoronski, I agree Skoronski might be a better interior player but Johnson played Guard prior to moving to tackle, he simply has the best physical dimensions of all the Tackles so naturally everyone prefers to type cast him there.
It's like this stigma that Kincaid doesn't or can't block, when his blocking grade is better the Laporta
Re: Offensive Line
Posted: 19 Apr 2023 14:29
by BSA
Here's Mike Wahle breaking down Josh Myers from 2022.
Grading system, grades, film clips and so much more. Wahle is so good at this.
Skoronski yes, he'd be a nice piece to line up wherever. Johnson is a tackle all the way to me though. I would rather try Wright at RG, he's a bit tall for it at 6'5 but has good mass and mentality. I think I would even prefer Broderick Jones inside to Johnson.
Johnson would be week 1 starting RG, imo.
I know he played there that one year, but I don't think he is suited for it long-term in the pros. Get you out of a game or short stretch, sure, but by all scouting reports he's tall and doesn't have much power or anchor... not exactly a recipe for success at G.
And he’d get his LT shot well before he needs to sign an extension or get his 5th year option, position based.
Under that timeline, he would be playing out of position to start his pro career for a season or two, and by the time he's put on the weight and functional strength he needs to be any good there, you will move him to T, sort of like how we fooled around with Daryn Colledge.
I am willing to try that with Skoronski, Wright, maybe even Jones. Johnson is T-only as far as I'm concerned.
Re: Offensive Line
Posted: 19 Apr 2023 15:14
by YoHoChecko
I want a RT/OG in the draft and a OC/OG in the draft, recognizing we have a lot of bodies.
But that doubles up on inside potential while also contributing to our RT needs while also letting the RT/OG have a career path if Jones or Walker develops into the RT role.
Matthew Bergeron is a great RT/OG option in the second for guys I haven’t seen mentioned for the Packers as much.
Cody Mauch will likely be overstated by my tastes but is actually sort of a RT/OG/C so it’s enticing for its versatile options, but he needs to add strength before playing. Maybe losses to JRJ in year one then takes over for him.
But the poll question is a fascinating one. JRJ and Meyers both seem to have similar issues in terms of consistent technique. Hopefully the coaches key in on that.
I, too, was impacted and haunted by the Lions performance, but that also falls into the best players performing poorly as Jenkins was the guilty party in multiple short yardage failures. And we’re certainly not replacing him.
I, too, was impacted and haunted by the Lions performance, but that also falls into the best players performing poorly as Jenkins was the guilty party in multiple short yardage failures. And we’re certainly not replacing him.
True, Jenkins has too often had his worst play in the most critical games (e.g. Tampa 2020). We aren't replacing him, but we can hedge our bets by upgrading our other starting G, so at least not all or most of our IOL is playing poorly at the same time even if Jenkins craps the bed again.
I, too, was impacted and haunted by the Lions performance, but that also falls into the best players performing poorly as Jenkins was the guilty party in multiple short yardage failures. And we’re certainly not replacing him.
True, Jenkins has too often had his worst play in the most critical games (e.g. Tampa 2020). We aren't replacing him, but we can hedge our bets by upgrading our other starting G, so at least not all or most of our IOL is playing poorly at the same time even if Jenkins craps the bed again.
I would rank Steve Avila TCU above Cody Mauch, and he's played C, G and some RT, in 550 pass pro snaps at LG didn't give up a pressure, just a big brute that may be there for our 2nd round pick
also Jenkins was bound to struggle a bit coming off the knee injury, I think he'll be back to rookie season form.
again I think with the changes and positional movement across the OL last season, set most of the players back some, imo it was a poor season to evaluate player production, without doing anything I expect we'll see improvement
I would rank Steve Avila TCU above Cody Mauch, and he's played C, G and some RT, in 550 pass pro snaps at LG didn't give up a pressure, just a big brute that may be there for our 2nd round pick
I think Avila is a better player than Mauch and would rank him on a draft board higher than Mauch. But I think Avila is less of an ideal fit for Packers thresholds and scheme. I could totally see them moving away from that though because I think Gutey wants more OL power based on small samples of circumstantial evidence--primarily guys he drafted later without full test results, but even Jenkins was a step down from the normal athleticism.
I agree with wanting more power, but I want power AND athleticism, which means fewer Day Three guys and more Day Two and Day One guys, which is why I really like Wright.
again I think with the changes and positional movement across the OL last season, set most of the players back some, imo it was a poor season to evaluate player production, without doing anything I expect we'll see improvement
It's very clear to me that some players are better able to transition from guard to tackle on the same side and some players are better able to transition from right to left while remaining at guard or tackle.
For instance Jenkins is better at LG and at LT than he was at RT. Newman is better at RG and RT than he is/would be at LG. Nijman is a tackle-only, right or left. JRJ is more of a LG or RG than a RT.
We only know those things because we try. So some things didn't work out ideally, I agree. But I can't say we should have known better.
I would rank Steve Avila TCU above Cody Mauch, and he's played C, G and some RT, in 550 pass pro snaps at LG didn't give up a pressure, just a big brute that may be there for our 2nd round pick
I think Avila is a better player than Mauch and would rank him on a draft board higher than Mauch. But I think Avila is less of an ideal fit for Packers thresholds and scheme. I could totally see them moving away from that though because I think Gutey wants more OL power based on small samples of circumstantial evidence--primarily guys he drafted later without full test results, but even Jenkins was a step down from the normal athleticism.
I agree with wanting more power, but I want power AND athleticism, which means fewer Day Three guys and more Day Two and Day One guys, which is why I really like Wright.
thanks for your opinion, I only watched a couple game vids, read a couple draft profiles, so all the input helps.
he graded out well at the combine I read, but didn't see a shuttle time, but he is a long armed guard prospect that can play C, G and RT, and I've read that we use more gap tech balance to just zone since Matt became coach, so bigger interior players makes sense to me.
I agree it does go against the more athletic profile we normally draft, so he might be considered a poor fit.
Re: Offensive Line
Posted: 19 Apr 2023 23:07
by BSA
All of these come from Dane Brugler's draft guide at The Athletic
Steve Avila
SUMMARY: A three-year starter at TCU, Avila started all 15 games at left guard as a senior in former offensive coordinator Garrett Riley’s RPO-based offense. A left tackle in high school, he played every offensive line position except left tackle at TCU, moving from center to left guard in 2022 and leading the team in snaps (1,020).He was an unsung hero on an offense that reached the National Championship Game. A wide-based and powerful blocker, Avila collects a body count with his heavy hands to make early contact in pass pro or drive block in the run game. Though he stays controlled in his initial mirror, his countering footwork and handwork will be the keys to his next-level success.
Overall, Avila needs to better understand his biomechanics to access his explosive power, but he plays with a strong base to anchor and control at either guard or center. He fits both zone and gap schemes and should be an immediate starter as an NFL rookie.
GRADE: 2nd Round (No. 40 overall)
Cody Mauch
SUMMARY: A three-year starter at North Dakota State, Mauch manned the left tackle position in offensive coordinator Tyler Roehl’s run-heavy, gap-power scheme. A220-pound walk-on tight end, he morphed into a 300-pound left tackle, which has been a smooth transition because of his natural athleticism and unrestrained intensity (had his two front teeth knocked out during a seventh-grade basketball game and doesn’t plan to have them replaced until he is done with football). Although he wasn’t often challenged on an island in pass protection, Mauch has the foot quickness and body control to comfortably operate in space and skillfully maneuver from block to block. His technical approach needs continued refinement, but he is a sticky blocker in the run game, using his hands to latch, create leverage and reset engagement. Overall, Mauch doesn’t have ideal length or sand in his lower body, but he has outstanding movement skills, fierce handwork and innate competitiveness to become a starter early in his NFL career. He should get a look at tackle first but also projects well inside, reminiscent of Mitch Morse.
GRADE: 2nd Round (No. 45 overall)
Mathew Bergeron
SUMMARY: A four-year starter at Syracuse, Bergeron was the starting left tackle in former offensive coordinator Robert Anae’s scheme. Lightly recruited out of Quebec, he learned on the fly (both the game of football and the English language) as a true freshman and developed into one of the ACC’s top tackles over his four seasons with the Orange. With his on-field demeanor and approach, Bergeron can generate movement in the run game and control pass rushers when his hands, feet and eyes stay on the same page. However, his inconsistent weight distribution leads to issues in pass pro and he doesn’t have repeatable hands, which were tough issues to mask against the better opponents on the schedule (Clemson, Notre Dame, Florida State). Overall, Bergeron is very efficient in his movements and grades well as a run blocker, but his inconsistent base and hand placement are gateway issues that disrupt his rhythm and ability to finish, especially in space. He has NFL starting talent, although his skills might be maximized inside as a zone-blocking guard.
