Packers Huddle

I think with the position competition at swing tackle and RG and the questions about Myers at C there is likely to be a lot of OLine discussion. I just did some in the Jordan Morgan draft thread, and was going to talk a little about Dillard and parlay that into a discussion about versatility and I figured I might as well just start a new thread where people can lump all of our OL chats.


ANYWAY, my point.

The Packers like versatility. The OC said that Dillard has been significantly better on the left side than the right side at OT. When we signed Dillard, many thought his best chance to rejuvenate his career was at OG. OL observer and analyst Ross Uglem has been tweeting recently about how putting Jordan Morgan at RG--asking him to swap side and position at the same time--is the worst thing to ask of the rookie.

It got me thinking, as we've discussed before, about switching sides versus switching positions. And how I think that from all I've read and heard from different OL, the distinction between which is harder is VERY individual. Some guys switch sides with ease, but the different techniques of playing inside versus outside are harder to adapt between. Some feel like switching sides forces everything to go "backwards" and is extremely hard to adjust to on short notice.

So that said, I think/hope the team should be adaptive to their players' needs and make some guys "side" guys and some guys "position" guys. I think Dillard working at LT/LG makes more sense, which Walker and/or Tom have both shown they can play OT on either side (Tom played LT in college and adjusted to RT as a pro in a hurry; Walker played RT a lot in camp/practices as a rookie before settling in at LT when needed due to Bakh's status)

Guys like Caleb Jones or Kadeem Tellfort seem stuck at OT due to size, though Telfort apparently did a lot of work at OG on the PS last season. Those guys probably need to either be side-switchable OR they have to be evaluated as one-position-only which is tricky to make the roster as a reserve.

It's apparent, also, that Rhyan is viewed as a position guy. RG/LG and no OT reps (some C reps, though)

Anyway, I don't know how much of a point there is here; and not sure how much the team talks to the players about this and adjust their plans. Just random Packers thoughts on the day.

If Rhyan can show any kind of ability at OC in preseason, he seems super valuable as that guy that can play all three interior positions and is not a preferred starter at any.

If Dillard can't cut it at RT, then he, to me, can't make the roster as a back-up LT-only and they need to work harder on finding that true swing OT. I just don't see OG flexibility with Dillard.

I wonder if Telfort has the feet for LT. I think Caleb Jones has worked both sides, but he doesn't seem like he will ever be ready.

Just a ton of questions with the depth and true versatility with some of these guys. I agree with your point about sides versus positions in that I think it is very individualized, but I also don't think we need to go out of our way to keep both types so long as the depth covers ever position adequately.

I just have a pretty strong feeling that the back end of that group is still in for some changes as we hit September.

My biggest training camp concern takeaways are that OLine depth is a real problem--and that depth overall (CB, QB, LB?) is not quite where I'm comfortable.

Obviously, having depth as a problem is a much better problem than having glaring holes at starting positions, but I genuinely don't know if there is a 6th OL that I trust

It feels like we have 3 good starters, 2 questionable starters (Myers mediocre, Morgan unknown question mark), no one else at OT that you'd want to rely on for more than a series, and maybe Rhyan as the first interior guy off the bench? Monk and Glover aren't ready. Dillard is bad. Telfort and Jones are big unknowns. Maybe Jones, now returned from injury, will stay healthy and show real progress, but yeesh.

I think I'd feel MUCH better if our vet journeyman tackle this time around was someone who was middling and aging (but savvy), rather than someone who flamed out and is being given a second chance.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

06 Aug 2024 07:08

It feels like we have 3 good starters, 2 questionable starters (Myers mediocre, Morgan unknown question mark), no one else at OT that you'd want to rely on for more than a series, and maybe Rhyan as the first interior guy off the bench? Monk and Glover aren't ready. Dillard is bad. Telfort and Jones are big unknowns. Maybe Jones, now returned from injury, will stay healthy and show real progress, but yeesh.

I think I'd feel MUCH better if our vet journeyman tackle this time around was someone who was middling and aging (but savvy), rather than someone who flamed out and is being given a second chance.

That 6th linemen has to be Rhyan (or Morgan I suppose).

Dillard I just don't see it, but he has played a lot of NFL snaps. I do not recall any reports of him at left tackle, but got to take the coaches word. One question the Packers might have to make is if Dillard is good enough to be essentially a LT only. I love all the developmental offensive tackles we have, but do not know if they are ready.

I am interested to see if Monk (who many were excited about) will be our primary backup C or if that will be Rhyan or Jenkins when all is said and done. I do feel Meyers isn't as awful as many say, but I do not expect him to be back next year.

Decent chance we pick up someone at roster cut downs. Gutey has also done a lot of trading at the deadline, would not be surprised if we swap a backup position of strength player for a backup offensive linemen

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

06 Aug 2024 07:08

My biggest training camp concern takeaways are that OLine depth is a real problem--and that depth overall (CB, QB, LB?) is not quite where I'm comfortable.

Obviously, having depth as a problem is a much better problem than having glaring holes at starting positions, but I genuinely don't know if there is a 6th OL that I trust

It feels like we have 3 good starters, 2 questionable starters (Myers mediocre, Morgan unknown question mark), no one else at OT that you'd want to rely on for more than a series, and maybe Rhyan as the first interior guy off the bench? Monk and Glover aren't ready. Dillard is bad. Telfort and Jones are big unknowns. Maybe Jones, now returned from injury, will stay healthy and show real progress, but yeesh.

I think I'd feel MUCH better if our vet journeyman tackle this time around was someone who was middling and aging (but savvy), rather than someone who flamed out and is being given a second chance.

I could care less about QB depth. No one has QB depth. I think depth at CB and LB are actually really good. At CB you have Jaire who is the star player but you can get away with playing Stokes or Valentine outside and having the other as depth. Nixon inside might not be the best but the option to play Bullard at nickel (where I think hes best) as well give you pretty solid depth there too. Add King into the mix who I think will be a solid player and we are better off than most teams at CB.

As for LB we are missing the high end play unless we get a jump from Quay or some stellar rookie play but Walker, Cooper, Hopper, McDuffie, and Wilson is more than enough and again I think that's better than most other teams depth.

OL is a real concern because there is no true backup OT. I'm wondering if the plan is if you lose an OT to push either OG out to their sides OT as replacement. We saw Jenkins could play LT but not RT. They could just slide him to LT and pull in Rhyan at LG. Or if Tom goes down you just slide Morgan out on his side to RT and Rhyan comes in at RG. And if Myers goes down I think the best play is to move Jenkins inside but it seems theyre preparing Rhyan for C so maybe thats the play. The issue is we are basically 1 deep across the OL because the only answer is to move an OG and put in Rhyan. But I'm speculating the plan.

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

06 Aug 2024 09:21

The issue is we are basically 1 deep across the OL because the only answer is to move an OG and put in Rhyan. But I'm speculating the plan.

I would prefer a veteran addition, still, but I think we might see a waiver claim at cutdowns that can be that true swing tackle. He will likely come with a lot of the same questions, but hopefully a small upgrade is an upgrade nonetheless.

I agree that Rhyan is clearly the #6 and the possible solution. But a 3rd-year player who didn't beat out JRJ--who is just fine--and then hasn't held off rookie Jordan Morgan.... could be a player that just isn't good enough?

Also Morgan left the field today with trainers?

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

06 Aug 2024 07:08

My biggest training camp concern takeaways are that OLine depth is a real problem

Try this thought exercise:
IF Rasheed Walker busts a chin strap and needs to come out of the game, Elgton Jenkins slides over and plays LT,while Sean Rhyan comes in and handles the LG duties. Jenkins is a better LT than Jones, Telfort,Dillard or Tenuta so that make sense
IF Jenkins blows out a shoe, Rhyan comes in at LG
IF Myers needs a rest, Elgton Jenkins slides over to OC and Sean Rhyan mans the LG spot
IF Morgan snaps a chinstrap, Sean Rhyan or Royce Newman comes in
IF Zach Tom steps out of the game, Morgan slides over to RT and Sean Rhyan/Royce Newman handles the RG spot

In each case, I think the Best 5 is maintained by moving Jenkins/Tom/Morgan and covering their spots with others. Having Morgan on right side allows him to cover RG and RT without having to switch sides or flip his stance etc. I think its easier sliding over one spot, than flipping over to the other side. IF the Packers are thinking along these lines, then it makes sense to have (2) vet OGs available to fill in- and maybe that's why GB re-did Newman's contract to keep him around another season. We'll see if Donovan Jennings or other OGs are also ready

On game day, you will always have 8 OL active and that allows GB some flexibility in terms of who is active and HOW they will cover any emergencies that arise. Ideally, you are 2 deep at each OL spot, but for 2024 that seems a challenge as noted by Yoho and others.
So maybe they do a little shuffling to maintain the high level of OL play.
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BSA wrote: ↑

06 Aug 2024 12:05

IF Myers needs a rest, Elgton Jenkins slides over to OC and Sean Rhyan mans the LG spot
IF Morgan snaps a chinstrap, Sean Rhyan or Royce Newman comes in
IF Zach Tom steps out of the game, Morgan slides over to RT and Sean Rhyan/Royce Newman handles the RG spot

These are terrifying. That's the exercise that brought me to this post. Morgan is at RG as a rookie after being tried at OT in OTAs. Dangerous RT.

I specifically do not know if Rhyan can play. He is the solution to many of your problems.

And I do know that Royce Newman is a detriment. So sliding his name in with Rhyan is doubly concerning.


I'm not sky-is-falling. But I am saying that we have big question marks all over the depth chart at OL and the beat writers have mentioned that the offense is not functioning right now without Tom. The Defense "won" all but one practice for the first, like, 7 days of practice.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

06 Aug 2024 12:44

BSA wrote: ↑

06 Aug 2024 12:05

IF Myers needs a rest, Elgton Jenkins slides over to OC and Sean Rhyan mans the LG spot
IF Morgan snaps a chinstrap, Sean Rhyan or Royce Newman comes in
IF Zach Tom steps out of the game, Morgan slides over to RT and Sean Rhyan/Royce Newman handles the RG spot

These are terrifying. That's the exercise that brought me to this post. Morgan is at RG as a rookie after being tried at OT in OTAs. Dangerous RT.

I specifically do not know if Rhyan can play. He is the solution to many of your problems.

And I do know that Royce Newman is a detriment. So sliding his name in with Rhyan is doubly concerning.


I'm not sky-is-falling. But I am saying that we have big question marks all over the depth chart at OL and the beat writers have mentioned that the offense is not functioning right now without Tom. The Defense "won" all but one practice for the first, like, 7 days of practice.

I mean if Rhyan was any good he would be the starting RG right now. The fact that he isnt says everything. Still ,the team did rotate him and Runyan last season into the playoffs.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

06 Aug 2024 12:44

These are terrifying.

I would much prefer to have Jenkins at LT than any of the other tackles -and its much easier to "hide" an OG than an OT because guards are protected on both sides vs an OT who is out in space. We saw Rhyan beat out Runyan at RG in 2023, and per the analytics, the Packers were a better running team with Rhyan in the game than with Runyan. So there is evidence of competence at OG for Rhyan and asking him to be a back-up OG seems workable from my view

I'd also push back on this one from your post above:

"Morgan is at RG as a rookie after being tried at OT in OTAs. Dangerous RT."

There's really no way anybody can come to useful conclusions about Morgan's ability at OT - after a couple days in shorts and shells a month into his NFL career. That's a grand canyon-sized leap to conclusions imo. I haven't see enough ( any ?) evidence yet to support that supposition.
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BSA wrote: ↑

06 Aug 2024 14:46

There's really no way anybody can come to useful conclusions about Morgan's ability at OT - after a couple days in shorts and shells a month into his NFL career. That's a grand canyon-sized leap to conclusions imo. I haven't see enough ( any ?) evidence yet to support that supposition.

You keep literally making my points.

Yes, we have zero useful conclusions about Morgan's ability at OT, yet you suggest him as a viable fill-in. That is, as I very specifically said, a question mark. It cannot be considered a useful backup plan if you can't draw any conclusions about his ability and he's only had a few spring reps. You are the one leaping to a conclusion of viability with no evidence. I am calling it a question mark that is uncomfortable entering the season.


Also, we did NOT see Rhyan beat out Runyan. They alternated some. Runyan did not yield the position. The analytics favored Rhyan in the run game, but not in the pass game.

Again: big questions. Your assumption of viable playing until proven otherwise is lovely and optimistic and possible. My assumption of question mark until answered is not an assumption of failure. But we have little reason for confidence in unproven players in untested roles. And as lupe pointed out, Rhyan would be the RG if he were the better OG than rookie Morgan, who hasn't previously played much OG at all.

Arguing against the assessment that Rhyan and Morgan are risks and question marks is the conclusion jump here. Saying that inexperienced players moving to new positions where they have very little test creates some question and concern is simply laying out the current condition. And we ALL seem to agree that we're not very comfortable with the alternatives like Jones, Telfort, Dillard, tenuta, Monk, and Glover. And UDFA Jennings hasn't gotten on the field yet, unfortunately, to enter the competition

I am neither willing to call any position settled, be it back up or starter, nor am I willing to be terrified by any now perceived shortcoming(s) based upon….counts fingers…ten(?) TC practices to date..?

This Oline and offensive staff has worked some pretty impressive magic the past few years. I’m willing to give them the benefit of doubt, at least for now, when it comes to filling the backup positions with viable players.

Here's a couple of snippets on the OL via Reddit report

https://www.reddit.com/r/GreenBayPacker ... e_aug_6th/


Jordan Morgan blocked Kenny Clark first rep and then the vet got him back on next one.
Elgton took four one on one reps and put on a show.
Jordan Morgan stood up Devonte Wyatt on bull rush.
Jacobs is doing team. Starts with a nice run.
Sean Rhyan gets the start at RG in team.

Tom is at LT.

Zach Tom returns to RT and stays in front of Gary, allowing Love time to hit wicks on deep crosser. Great job by Love re-setting his feet and throwing a laser.
Sean Rhyan great job blocking LVN to buy time for Love on the Wicks throw as well.
Sean Rhyan just sealed slaton too.
Dillard spelling Tom with ones.

MLF comments on OT Caleb Jones

"He's a guy that's grown a lot." LaFleur adds that more consistency--as is the case with everyone he adds--is a focus. "That's a heck of a competition right now," said LaFleur of the swing tackle role.

APB wrote: ↑

06 Aug 2024 19:15

I am neither willing to call any position settled, be it back up or starter, nor am I willing to be terrified by any now perceived shortcoming(s) based upon….counts fingers…ten(?) TC practices to date..?

I just want to point out, as I have in other similar circumstances, that voicing a concern and raising questions is not being "terrified" or freaking out.

I stated that one of the main takeaways at this point in camp is OL depth struggles because reporters all seem to be reporting that the OL can't handle the DL and that without Tom, the offense had struggled to get anything going in rhythm more often than not.

Included in that statement is that it is camp takeaways, so yes--thus far. Yes, early. No one ruled out that someone may emerge looking competent. But no one has yet. So we should be thinking about possible alternative plans in case no one does. Not "we" because like I can't sign someone. But it's a thought worth thinking, and just because we argue about the details doesn't mean anyone is freaking out or solidifying conclusions. And personally, I'm rooting for Caleb Jones to be the one who steps up. I love a long-term development project.


Also, on the camp updates that BSA posted--I think the "Tom at LT" was a mistake in an Andy Herman tweet (I saw it, too, and he did not reply when commenters questioned it). I haven't seen that anywhere else and Tom is being eased back into camp on a pitch count and was rotating at RT, even. It would be surprising if they also were rotating him in at a new position during that ramp up.

Sounds like Morgan has held his own at RG, which would make me feel a lot better about the OL if true. Rhyan's play last year is not good enough to start for me but I'm ok with it as a backup. So that takes care of G depth. We have a few guys who can play C. Monk has experience at both.

Question to me is T depth. I'm not down with Dillard in that role, the other Ts on our roster are all question-marks.

Labrev wrote: ↑

07 Aug 2024 16:05

Monk has experience at both.

You've mentioned Monk a couple of times, so I looked up his draft bio from Dane Brugler.
It would be ideal if Monk can back-up all 3 IOL spots in 2025 after a year in the Strength program. Gute mentioned his quick feet in terms of getting out of his stance fast- and that's reflected in his draft bio too - as well as his versatility.

STRENGTHS: Checks boxes for functional size and movements … looks smooth in his change of direction and is a natural bender … gets out
of his stance quickly and easily expands his range as a puller … looks comfortable picking off defenders in space when climbing in the screen game … shows natural strength and doesn’t appear overwhelmed at contact … able to generate power from his lower body in the run game … delivers pop with his initial st rike and runs his feet on contact to steer rushers wide … shows the alertness expected of a player with his experience … two-year team captain and comes with strong character reviews … durable and started 58 games during his career … logged double -digit starts at three different positions.

WEAKNESSES: Short-armed, and his balance will rock when he leans and overextends … inconsistent timing with his initial strike … tends to carry his hands low, which exposes his chest … occasionally pulled inside on protections … speed-to-power pass rushers will bruise and batter him with bully length and force his anchor to work overtime … average twitch athlete, which shows in his mirroring skills and also creates delays in his recoveries … collected 20 penalties during his five seasons as a starter, including several holding flags in 2023 … missed two games in 2022 because of injury … started more games at right guard and right tackle in college but is viewed as a center-only prospect by several NFL teams.

SUMMARY: A five-year starter at Duke, Monk switched between right guard and center in former offensive coordinator Kevin Johns’ scheme. The highest-ranked recruit in the Blue Devils’ class five years ago, he earned a starting role from the get-go (played tackle for the first time as a true freshman) and then showed off his versatility between guard and center, depending on where he was needed (earned All-ACC honors in his final three seasons). Monk has graceful movements out of his stance (second-best 10-yard split among centers at the combine) and processes his surroundings quickly (coaches rave about him as a teammate and worker).
His hands have moments where they are all over the place, and he gets himself in trouble when he lunges in attempts to answer power.
Overall, Monk doesn’t have elite size and strength, which puts more of a premium on his technique, but his foot quickness and football IQ belong on an NFL roster. He projects best as a backup center who can fill in at guard in a pinch
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IMO Morgan has the highest upside and now it is a tossup as to who is better at RG. I would give Morgan as many snaps in the pre-season as possible at RG and RT and project him as the starting RG and the backup RT.

If Walker gets hurt in a game then slide Jenkins over to LT. If Walker is out for weeks or the season, move Tom to LT and Morgan to RT and Rhyan to RG.

Rhyan should be the first backup at both LG and RG should either Jenkins or Morgan have either a short term problem or a long term injury.

That leaves only Center without a backup. IMO Monk should only get reps in the preseason at C. After 2 games we should know if he is ready or if the Packers have a problem. If there is a problem, Jenkins becomes the backup for center.

I have little hope for any of the other OT's or for Newman. Cut them all and trade our 6th WR or Ben Sims for a legitimate backup. Wilson or Dillon could also be used in a trade as they would be a solid 2nd RB on most teams. I suspect that our 4th safety would start on many teams too. Probably our second kicker also.

It all works if and only if Rhyan has improved. Not being able to replace JRJ last season is not encouraging. He had every opportunity as it was always likely that JRJ would leave, but at the end of the season it was JRJ that was the starter. Of course if 2 starting Olinemen get hurt at the same time it is a big problem but few other teams could deal with that either. Be glad the starting 5 is one of the best Olines in the league.

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Matt La Fleur on Zach Tom's progress/rehab