Offensive Tackle Discussion

[Chilli]

Since the opening of free agency right to the 53 roster cutdown we have parted ways with many backup offensive tackles:

Spriggs, Madison, Bruffy, Leglue, Conway and Light.

We also appear to have focused in the draft by adding depth on the interior OL by drafting Stepaniak, Hanson and Runyan. We have lots of interior players now and we're rumored to be looking at Britt too.

After Bakhtiari, Wagner and Turner we don't have any real ready to play options at tackle. I suppose Runyan could play at tackle in a pinch considering he was a LT in college but for us he has played left guard for the entire preseason.

After cutting so many depth options we are left with just Nijman and Johnson as our true backups OTs . Having said that, Johnson is currently listed as a guard on the Packers website but one look at his college cutups you will immediately see that his physical profile is best suited for tackle, a position where he has spent most of his college career. He only moved to guard in his senior season to make room for another tackle prospect.

Having a closer look at Nijman and Johnson you will come away realising what athletic prospects they are. Johnson probably has the most experience in college playing in 46 straight college games and this likely resulted him becoming the more technically accomplished of the two entering the NFL. Not only that he also has some pedigree having been part of a national championship winning teams so from an attitude and mental aspect he's probably further ahead.

Nijman on the other hand tested off the charts, he's a physical monster. Despite being experienced in college he's still very raw in terms of technique but he has the advantage of spending a year in the NFL conditioning program and is further ahead of his knowledge with LaFleur's OL. He started off as a LT before moving to RT in his senior season. Technically he has lots of work to do and it's obvious he's behind Johnson in this regard when you compare their tapes. His athleticism doesn't really jump off the screen, his balance isn't quite right and looks a bit heavy footed but with improved technique his athleticism should shine through more. There were some aspects where his reactions and decisions were a tick slow especially with stunts. Here are some of his 2018 college highlights.

vs Boston College (2018) #69 Right Tackle


vs FSU (2018) #69 Right Tackle


Without a pro day we will never know Johnson's athletic measurements but by just watching the tape you can see he is no slouch. He moves really well for a big man, in fact I'm not quite sure why we have labeled him as a guard when he clearly has the physical profile of a tackle, he's too skinny to play in the inside at NFL level imo. Considering our lack of depth at tackle it makes sense he would be one of our backup OT candidates on the roster. He has fluid feet around the edge, his run blocking is quite good showing great effort getting to the second level. He just looks a little light and certainly lacks the strength and power required to cope with NFL defensive linemen which is why he's a developmental prospect at this stage but his technique, effort, mobility, reading and react are all plus points. Check out some of his cutups at right tackle and guard.

2019 cutups #68 Right Guard:


2018 cutups #68 Right Tackle:



Now looking at our starting OT, losing Bulaga hurt, Bakhtiari is in contract year, the jury is still out on Wagner and Turner. It is a position in some flux at the moment. The Packers normally draft a player in a key position as insurance in anticipation of the starter potentially leaving in a year time. It's a strategy they've implemented many times in the past. For whatever reason they've moved away from this strategy as they didn't do this with Bulaga and again they didn't do this with Bakhtiari If you don't count Runyan as an OT.

If Bakhtiari leaves they will not have drafted a single OT replacement for either side. That's a problem. They will certainly be forced to draft an OT early next year but this makes us predictable and other NFL teams can anticipate and trade up ahead of us, just like this year with wide receivers. It's not going to be easy to find an OT who will start right away. I can see us scrambling for another Wagner type in free agency. It's a bit of a bleak view of the future but all of this can be avoided if we re-sign Bakhtiari. So why we are prioritising Aaron Jones over him makes my mind boggle.

This is where Nijman, Johnson and possibly Runyan enter the picture, I mean....who else do we have? They are all excellent developmental prospects for our coaches to work with and we're crossing our fingers that one or more of them will step up and become mainstays of our OL.

[YoHoChecko]

A good topic to discuss.

I will say, it is weird to be like "outside of 3 veteran starters, we don't have a reliable tackle."

Like, that's true, mostly (Jenkins played some RT in college and Lane Taylor has played OT for us on both sides for short stretches)

But also, why would we? Having a raw, athletic guy to develop in Nijmen after the top 3 makes sense.

But of course you're right that this is a potential disaster if Bakhtiari leaves. I think we need to draft a tackle high even if he doesn't, looking for a long-term answer to the RT spot.

Camp reports were that Zach Johnson was terrible, even at OG. Keeping him around shows they believe in his tools and they're hoping for a jump forward once acclimating to the higher level of play in the league on the PS.

I agree that Runyan could be a legitimate RT option down the line, but the Packers have been sticking their rookies to one spot on the OL under MLF, as Jenkins never took practice snaps at C, his best college position, even when Linsley was out for much of camp. So that could be revisited next year for Runyan, but for now don't expect to see him outside even if there's a spate of injuries. He hasn't practiced there.

[Chilli]

Normally I agree with you with "outside of 3 veteran starters, we don't have a reliable tackle." but then you see tweets like this:



Having missed much of camp on PUP, it doesn't feel you much confidence with our depth.

Like you said Zach Johnson camp reports were terrible which isn't surprising considering he's up against some big, powerful technicians and he doesn't have the mass, strength and power yet to keep up.

So those two backup OT are not quite ready for Sundays. The potential is definitely there with both of them though. I certainly feel they are an upgrade over Light.

For the time being we're relying on makeshift OT to tide us over should injury strikes. Jenkins haven't practiced on the outside, Runyan hasn't practiced on the outside despite playing at LT in college, Taylor certainly haven't practiced on the outside under LaFleur, I don't know about Patrick. It's not ideal. All it took was for Wagner and Turner to pick some minor injuries in camp and we're suddenly in trouble. I'm not a fan of weakening a position of strength by moving a player to a problem position such as in the case of Jenkins.

In the longer term, if we don't re-sign Bakhtiari then we should start getting concerned, especially since we haven't drafted anyone to replace Bulaga and Bakhtiari.

It may surprise you to learn that despite being labeled as a "guard" Runyan is more athletic than Bulaga and Bakhtiari. That's why I was surprised to read reports that he was focusing at LG only when we have plenty of other guards, he should've been focusing being Bakhtiari's backup imo.

[go pak go]

There is definitely a list of "we are in serious trouble if this person gets hurt".

I think that list includes and probably in the order of:

1. Christian Kirksey
2. David Bakhtiari
3. Kenny Clark
4. Aaron Rodgers

[YoHoChecko]

It may surprise you to learn that despite being labeled as a "guard" Runyan is more athletic than Bulaga and Bakhtiari. That's why I was surprised to read reports that he was focusing at LG only when we have plenty of other guards, he should've been focusing being Bakhtiari's backup imo.

It doesn't surprise me at all; I've been singing that song since pre-draft. But it doesn't change the fact that he IS a LG-only this year; the team has made that clear both in word and action.

Also, it's worth noting that the Packers, historically, have had more athletic guards and centers than tackles, especially in short-shuttles.

Like, separated by OTs, T/Gs, and iOL...

Short Shuttle
Bulaga: 4.75
Bakhtiari: 4.75
Wagner: 4.92
Taylor: 4.72
Turner: 4.71
Tretter: 4.69
Patrick: 4.66
Jenkins: 4.62
Linsley: 4.53
Sitton: 4.50

3-Cones
Bulaga: 7.70
Bakhtiari: 7.70
Wagner: 7.94
Turner: 7.92
Taylor: 8.41 (exception alert)
Tretter: 7.48
Patrick: 7.77
Jenkins: 7.77
Linsley: 7.46
Sitton: 7.55

So while Runyan's 4.69 and 7.57 are better than Bulaga and Bakhtiari, they fit right in on the iOL. It's noteworthy that the two OL whose testing numbers are low are the two OGs who the team has tried at OT (Taylor and Turner). You can essentially sort from OT to T/G to iOL (usually to OG to OC, but Sitton was exceptional) by their shuttle results. 4.75+, you're a tackle. 4.70 to 4.74, you're a G/T tweener. Below 4.7, you're in the inside.

[BF004]

There is definitely a list of "we are in serious trouble if this person gets hurt".

I think that list includes and probably in the order of:

1. Christian Kirksey
2. David Bakhtiari
3. Kenny Clark
4. Aaron Rodgers

I mean, who ever has an average level replacement LT?

[TheGreenMan]

There is definitely a list of "we are in serious trouble if this person gets hurt".

I think that list includes and probably in the order of:

1. Christian Kirksey
2. David Bakhtiari
3. Kenny Clark
4. Aaron Rodgers

I'd completely flip that order.

[Yoop]

Rodge
Bahk
Clark
Kirksey

offense gets you to the dance

[go pak go]

It may surprise you to learn that despite being labeled as a "guard" Runyan is more athletic than Bulaga and Bakhtiari. That's why I was surprised to read reports that he was focusing at LG only when we have plenty of other guards, he should've been focusing being Bakhtiari's backup imo.

It doesn't surprise me at all; I've been singing that song since pre-draft. But it doesn't change the fact that he IS a LG-only this year; the team has made that clear both in word and action.

Also, it's worth noting that the Packers, historically, have had more athletic guards and centers than tackles, especially in short-shuttles.

Like, separated by OTs, T/Gs, and iOL...

Short Shuttle
Bulaga: 4.75
Bakhtiari: 4.75
Wagner: 4.92
Taylor: 4.72
Turner: 4.71
Tretter: 4.69
Patrick: 4.66
Jenkins: 4.62
Linsley: 4.53
Sitton: 4.50

3-Cones
Bulaga: 7.70
Bakhtiari: 7.70
Wagner: 7.94
Turner: 7.92
Taylor: 8.41 (exception alert)
Tretter: 7.48
Patrick: 7.77
Jenkins: 7.77
Linsley: 7.46
Sitton: 7.55

So while Runyan's 4.69 and 7.57 are better than Bulaga and Bakhtiari, they fit right in on the iOL. It's noteworthy that the two OL whose testing numbers are low are the two OGs who the team has tried at OT (Taylor and Turner). You can essentially sort from OT to T/G to iOL (usually to OG to OC, but Sitton was exceptional) by their shuttle results. 4.75+, you're a tackle. 4.70 to 4.74, you're a G/T tweener. Below 4.7, you're in the inside.

With the Packers switching to a completely different blocking scheme, outliers like Lane Taylor completely blowing away my expectations, Elgton Jenkins being drafted where he was and completely showed he was underrated and Gutekunst overpaying for a complete outlier in Billy Turner that still has my head scratching....I honestly don't have any theories or thoughts on our Oline.

I don't get what we are looking for or what works in our system to be honest.

[Chilli]

I don't get what we are looking for or what works in our system to be honest.

At the moment the two main metric is at least 6'5" and a 40 time of less than 5.20s. Everything else is a bit all over the place.

Covid hitting pro days didn't help as that would've given us more data as to what we're looking for with our OL.

[YoHoChecko]

At the moment the two main metric is at least 6'5" and a 40 time of less than 5.20s. Everything else is a bit all over the place.

Covid hitting pro days didn't help as that would've given us more data as to what we're looking for with our OL.

What?

Those metrics don't fit anyone.

Bakhtiari is just under 6'5"
Lane Taylor is 6' 3"
Billy Turner is a hair under 6'5" (by an eighth of an inch)
Elgton Jenkins is 6''4 1/2"
Linsley is shorter than 6'3"
Lucas Patrick is 6' 3 1/2"

The guys we drafted this year:
Hansen: 6' 4 3/8"
Stefanik: 6' 4 1/8"
Runyan: 6' 4 1/4"

If anything, 6'5" is the barrier in the opposite direction. On our line, only Nijmen and Wagner are over 6'5", as was Bulaga before he left. Only Nijman is over 6'6". I doubt we have a stated preference for guys under 6'5" specifically, but it holds up better than saying we want our guys to be that. In fact, several guys we had brought in previously but have released this year are often over 6'5": Bulaga, Light, Cole Madison, Leglue (I think he's still on the PS).

The 40-time holds up for everyone on the current roster but Lane Taylor and Lucas Patrick, though as you said, we don't know about Hansen and Stefanik.

Reference:

image.png (57.21 KiB) Viewed 322 times

[lupedafiasco]

There is no way in hell the Packers let Bak walk. It’s going to hurt to pay him but you keep players like Bak who are the undisputed best at their position. It would be a dumb move to let a sure thing go.

I would assume Wagner starts. I can’t see a world where someone is dumb enough to pay Turner 8mil/yr and another idiot dumb enough to start him making decisions on the same team. Turner is probably insurance to play RT. Can’t forget Lane Taylor did LT before and wasn’t horrible. I think there are passable options at OT for us at RT but if Bak goes down it will hurt but that’s any team with their starting LT.

[YoHoChecko]

With the Packers switching to a completely different blocking scheme, outliers like Lane Taylor completely blowing away my expectations, Elgton Jenkins being drafted where he was and completely showed he was underrated and Gutekunst overpaying for a complete outlier in Billy Turner that still has my head scratching....I honestly don't have any theories or thoughts on our Oline.

I don't get what we are looking for or what works in our system to be honest.

I agree with this to an extent. Jenkins was definitely a bit below our usual athletic benchmarks and so I was surprised we took him, but he did great. When we cut that big bulldog we brought in, Nico Siragusa, I assumed that guys like him, possible Madison, definitely Lane Taylor... were on the way out as we moved toward a more athletic zone blocking model.

But the moves we've made bringing in Turner and Jenkins, now with Taylor back in place as a starter... then the descriptions of Hansen and Stefanik... it really seems like we're looking for guys with just enough pure athleticism, but tons of power. We're actually into bulldogs. Maybe it's more of a football IQ/instincts emphasis.

Though, to be fair, Jon Runyan fit our model to a tee and anyone could have guessed (like I did) that he's the kind of guy we'd target, and we did. So while there's definitely been a bit of a shift in thinking, be it Gutey-related or MLF-related--making it a bit tougher to predict exactly what we're looking for--we still haven't completely abandoned the previous markers.

But you're right. It used to be very predictable. Now it feels a little less so

[YoHoChecko]

There is no way in hell the Packers let Bak walk. It’s going to hurt to pay him but you keep players like Bak who are the undisputed best at their position. It would be a dumb move to let a sure thing go.

I would hope you're right, but Bakh said yesterday that there's nothing serious or imminent with his contract talks... so likely not happening any time soon.

As for your take on Turner, while his previous play at OT with Denver merits a good deal of consternation, your take is as usual too strong and confident in your ability to assess a player without having access to any relevant info from this offseason. Many beat reporters who share your skepticism report being pleasantly surprised. Wagner probably starts the season because of Turner's injury, but there's no reason to think that's settled.

[Drj820]

I’d feel a lot better about RT on Sunday if we had just brought in Vel Deer as soon as Turner got hurt. I mean we have the money to get him in a jersey, and we could have put montravious or the LB on 3 week IR and never knew they were gone.

[YoHoChecko]

I’d feel a lot better about RT on Sunday if we had just brought in Vel Deer as soon as Turner got hurt. I mean we have the money to get him in a jersey, and we could have put montravious or the LB on 3 week IR and never knew they were gone.

A vested veteran on the week one roster gets their salary guaranteed for the year. That's why these vets around the league make visits but remain unsigned. I expect a lot of adds Monday and Tuesday league-wide. Heck, we're sitting at 52 on the roster for some reason

[Drj820]

I’d feel a lot better about RT on Sunday if we had just brought in Vel Deer as soon as Turner got hurt. I mean we have the money to get him in a jersey, and we could have put montravious or the LB on 3 week IR and never knew they were gone.

A vested veteran on the week one roster gets their salary guaranteed for the year. That's why these vets around the league make visits but remain unsigned. I expect a lot of adds Monday and Tuesday league-wide. Heck, we're sitting at 52 on the roster for some reason

Good point about the guarantees. Hope we make a move like that early next week. I think he is our best option at RT even with the other options healthy!

[NCF]

But of course you're right that this is a potential disaster if Bakhtiari leaves. I think we need to draft a tackle high even if he doesn't, looking for a long-term answer to the RT spot.

I don't really think so. This isn't Ted Thompson's Packers, anymore. Look, I think there are two parts to this. I think they obviously want Bak back. If they can't get a deal done and he walks, I am 95% positive our replacement isn't on the roster nor coming from The Draft (not in Year 1, anyway). Similar to this offseason, I would expect Gute to attack the LT position with a stop gap or even two to hold us over until someone emerges from within. Our OL is never going to be better without Bak, but highly doubt we line up Week 1 next year and don't feel good about the 5 we have out there.

[Pugger]

Who did Bulaga sign with? I can't remember...

[NCF]

Who did Bulaga sign with? I can't remember...

The San Angeles... California... whatever they are, Chargers.