Week 3 (other) Games

[salmar80]

[Yoop]

I think we'll see more teams using motion, and play action, imo the goal is protecting the QB, we watched Lafleur design more up tempo for Willis, but he did this for Love and would have with AR too, except Rodgers specialty was extending the play.

defenses are designing more 5 man rush, disguising blitz packages, more inside stunts, DC know even the best coverages wont hold up in todays multi faceted passing attacks, so getting after the QB seems more urgent then ever before, hence quicker decision making from QB, if 1 and 2 are covered, run, or throw it away, or take a beating, the later is not good

[Pckfn23]

Before this goes down the rabbit hole...

Motion - Pre-snap movement of 1 player.
Play Action - Pass play that looks like a run play at the start of the play. Objective is to get defenders to bite on the run fake and open up passing lanes.
Up-tempo - No huddle, fast paced, designed to get as man plays run as possible.

[Yoop]

Before this goes down the rabbit hole...

Motion - Pre-snap movement of 1 player.
Play Action - Pass play that looks like a run play at the start of the play. Objective is to get defenders to bite on the run fake and open up passing lanes.
Up-tempo - No huddle, fast paced, designed to get as man plays run as possible.

the only person creating a rabbit hole is YOU

do you have a link, or are these just your opinions?

whatever, my opinion is we'll see more of it

[NCF]

Before this goes down the rabbit hole...

Motion - Pre-snap movement of 1 player.
Play Action - Pass play that looks like a run play at the start of the play. Objective is to get defenders to bite on the run fake and open up passing lanes.
Up-tempo - No huddle, fast paced, designed to get as man plays run as possible.

the only person creating a rabbit hole is YOU

do you have a link, or are these just your opinions?

whatever, my opinion is we'll see more of it

Football Dictionary

I will add up-tempo can also be used to dictate personnel, but is accomplished as described above... no huddle.

[Pckfn23]

Before this goes down the rabbit hole...

Motion - Pre-snap movement of 1 player.
Play Action - Pass play that looks like a run play at the start of the play. Objective is to get defenders to bite on the run fake and open up passing lanes.
Up-tempo - No huddle, fast paced, designed to get as man plays run as possible.

the only person creating a rabbit hole is YOU

do you have a link, or are these just your opinions?

whatever, my opinion is we'll see more of it

Not opinion, facts.

I bring it up so that we can talk about these subjects without having to needlessly debate the factual definitions. I would love to talk about why we see some of those things, but not if we have to go down the rabbit hole first.

[salmar80]

Before this goes down the rabbit hole...

Motion - Pre-snap movement of 1 player.
Play Action - Pass play that looks like a run play at the start of the play. Objective is to get defenders to bite on the run fake and open up passing lanes.
Up-tempo - No huddle, fast paced, designed to get as man plays run as possible.

do you have a link, or are these just your opinions?

whatever, my opinion is we'll see more of it

Those are pretty basic terms.

None of them have much to do with protecting the QB.

In fact, play-action can be dangerous for a QB, because the OL is blocking for run, not pass. So if, for example, defender(s) aren't fooled (or run blitz and realize the QB still has it), and a receiver doesn't get open fast, it can leave the QB unprotected and lead to big sacks. One way you CAN use play-action to keep QB safe is AR's signature play-action scramble to the outside, because once out of the pocket, the QB can just throw it away if pressured.

If you're looking for things that we run to keep the QB safe, that repertoire would include our quick screens, other quick throws, leaving RBs and/or TEs to pass block, chipping premier pass rushers, and to some extent read- or run-option plays, where our QB can choose to hand the ball off to the RB depending on what a key defender does.

With Malik, it looked to me that it was drilled into his head that "if your primary read (max 2nd) ain't open, run it. DO NOT THROW IF YOU'RE NOT SURE!!!". And this wasn't to protect him, as evidenced by several big hits he took, it was to protect the ball and the score.

[Yoop]

the goal of up tempo also includes protecting the QB, same with play action, motion, running, these are my opinions, based of course on what I see play out on the field, why anyone would consider these opinions false, well have at it, wtf

[salmar80]

the goal of up tempo also includes protecting the QB, same with play action, motion, running, these are my opinions, based of course on what I see play out on the field, why anyone would consider these opinions false, well have at it, wtf

Soooo, you're basically saying almost all of offensive football is designed so that it doesn't get your QB killed? Well, sir, I sure agree.

This conjured up a mental image of LaFleur having a special section on his play sheet, under a protective cover with "PLAYS LIKELY TO GET OUR QB KILLED - USE ONLY IN CASE OF EMERGENCY" written in angry red capital letters...

[Pckfn23]

Up-tempo has 3 main reasons for implementation. First is the theory that running more plays leads to more points. Chip Kelly was a main proponent of this a while back. Second, and one that every team uses from time to time, is to catch a defense in a personnel grouping that is deemed advantageous to the offensive personnel grouping. Teams go up-tempo because the defense doesn't have time to sub. Third, which every team uses, is at the end of the half.

Play Action is used to catch defenders playing the run and open up passing lanes especially behind linebackers. The linebackers bite to defend the run and it opens up that 7-10 yard window right behind them and in-front of the safeties.

Motion is used for several reasons. It makes it easier for the QB to determine if a defense is in man or zone. They way they react and/or reset to motion will tell them that. Motion also can allow the motion man to gain leverage. For example, it can make it easier for them to make a kick out block or to reach an OLB/ CB. It's not ideal for a pass or base block as the motion puts the hips perpendicular to the LoS. In Canada, that's a different story. Lastly, it can help gain numbers for the offense and or confuse the defense into alignment and/or assignment issues.

In all, none of these 3 aspects of football are used primarily to help protect the QB.

[NCF]

the goal of up tempo also includes protecting the QB, same with play action, motion, running, these are my opinions, based of course on what I see play out on the field, why anyone would consider these opinions false, well have at it, wtf

So, once again, I am going to try to tell you what you are saying that will make you right and everyone else right. Except, you will come back and tell me I am wrong, so shame on me for getting involved, but here it goes.

Yes, motion, up-tempo, and play-action does help protect the QB in the grand scheme of things. That is why the Packers used much of it a healthy dose with Willis running the offense. It gives the QB tells, cleaner reads, and more two-way goes with the football then straight drop-back passing does.

On an individual play-by-play basis, though, it does not help protect the QB for a number of reasons.

Up-tempo requires a disciplined, well-oiled offense to pull off. Can result in procedure penalties, especially with an inexperienced QB which puts the QB in longer down-and-distance.

Play-action requires the QB to turn his back to the defense. Can take him longer to process the route concepts and coverage schemes and lead to more sacks and/or turnover worthy plays.

Motion, similar to up-tempo, requires coordination. Difficult to get right with an inexperienced QB and can, again, lead to procedure penalties or incorrect calls, checks, guys lined up in the wrong spot, etc.

It is a delicate balance with an inexperienced QB to add that stuff too heavily into the game plan because a lot can go wrong. As you pointed out, though, if the QB can handle it, that is why teams use it, because it leads to a more effective offense in the long run.

[Yoop]

the goal of up tempo also includes protecting the QB, same with play action, motion, running, these are my opinions, based of course on what I see play out on the field, why anyone would consider these opinions false, well have at it, wtf

Soooo, you're basically saying almost all of offensive football is designed so that it doesn't get your QB killed? Well, sir, I sure agree.

This conjured up a mental image of LaFleur having a special section on his play sheet, under a protective cover with "PLAYS LIKELY TO GET OUR QB KILLED - USE ONLY IN CASE OF EMERGENCY" written in angry red capital letters...

Lafleur has had every QB he's ever coached in GB practice using a release clock, Rodgers, Love and Willis, in fact I think we had a chart here a year or so back that showed snap to trigger times and we led the league, even with Rodgers, so OK, if you want to say every play is designed to protect the QB, fine.

however it's my contention that play action may show run blocking play, but that can just be a disguise to freeze a pash rush, and the OL will actually be pass blocking.

your mental image comment is mental retardation , send a self addressed stamped envelope and I'll forward a cure

[APB]

Man what happened to Joe Burrow? This guy went from one of the best young QBs to garbage so fast. Reminds me of what happened to Carson Went.

I started watching his pocket movements and ball placement very closely after seeing your post.

You’re right. He’s not the same guy.

He didn’t have good ball placement at all outside of a few throws. He also throws receivers into dangerous situations. He makes it hard on them. He also doesn’t look near as confident in the pocket. The “swag” is gone.

Dunno what happened to him but something ain’t right. Perhaps if he spent more time focused on his craft and less on image he’d still be winning games.

[Yoop]

the goal of up tempo also includes protecting the QB, same with play action, motion, running, these are my opinions, based of course on what I see play out on the field, why anyone would consider these opinions false, well have at it, wtf

So, once again, I am going to try to tell you what you are saying that will make you right and everyone else right. Except, you will come back and tell me I am wrong, so shame on me for getting involved, but here it goes.

Yes, motion, up-tempo, and play-action does help protect the QB in the grand scheme of things. That is why the Packers used much of it a healthy dose with Willis running the offense. It gives the QB tells, cleaner reads, and more two-way goes with the football then straight drop-back passing does.

On an individual play-by-play basis, though, it does not help protect the QB for a number of reasons.

Up-tempo requires a disciplined, well-oiled offense to pull off. Can result in procedure penalties, especially with an inexperienced QB which puts the QB in longer down-and-distance.

Play-action requires the QB to turn his back to the defense. Can take him longer to process the route concepts and coverage schemes and lead to more sacks and/or turnover worthy plays.

Motion, similar to up-tempo, requires coordination. Difficult to get right with an inexperienced QB and can, again, lead to procedure penalties or incorrect calls, checks, guys lined up in the wrong spot, etc.

It is a delicate balance with an inexperienced QB to add that stuff too heavily into the game plan because a lot can go wrong. As you pointed out, though, if the QB can handle it, that is why teams use it, because it leads to a more effective offense in the long run.

never said you where wrong, and a QB does not half to turn his back on the defense in PA, a good portion of play action is nothing more then deception.

also just because I disagree, does not me I disagree with everything about your comment, but I sure disagree about that part.

and we just did as much or more PA, mis direction, and motion, with a very inexperienced QB then we did with Rodgers years ago then he did it in twice as many games

You've probably read, and I do agree that motion, PA, up tempo, adds more chance for mistakes, however, again though, it helps get the ball out of the QB's hands ahead of the pass rush getting to him ( which was obviously the intent and reason for MLF using so much of it with Willis)

and why not? Willis is a excellent ball handler, doesn't look stupid or do irrational things with it, if anything those schemes played to the strength of Willis ability.

I speak to what I see on the field, rarely ever google so that every word meets the encyclopedia definition some pundent put a name to, like up tempo automatically means no huddle, that has to be the most benignly stupid thing I've ever heard, lots of quick plays happen after players huddle

[Crazylegs Starks]

Not opinion, facts.

I bring it up so that we can talk about these subjects without having to needlessly debate the factual definitions. I would love to talk about why we see some of those things, but not if we have to go down the rabbit hole first.

Whoa, hold on there! I'm gonna need you to define "rabbit hole" before we go any further. Are we talkin' North American rabbit holes, or European rabbit holes? And where does Bug Bunny fit into this?

[RingoCStarrQB]

Not opinion, facts.

I bring it up so that we can talk about these subjects without having to needlessly debate the factual definitions. I would love to talk about why we see some of those things, but not if we have to go down the rabbit hole first.

Whoa, hold on there! I'm gonna need you to define "rabbit hole" before we go any further. Are we talkin' North American rabbit holes, or European rabbit holes? And where does Bug Bunny fit into this?

It's a huge revelation. There are more than 300 breeds of rabbits across 70 countries. Imagine the associated hole types

[Pckfn23]

a QB does not half to turn his back on the defense in PA, a good portion of play action is nothing more then deception.

The entire point of play action is deception. If the run fake isn't convincing, there is no point in running it, it won't do what it is designed to do.

You've probably read, and I do agree that motion, PA, up tempo, adds more chance for mistakes, however, again though, it helps get the ball out of the QB's hands ahead of the pass rush getting to him ( which was obviously the intent and reason for MLF using so much of it with Willis)

Motion, Play action, and up-tempo have little to do with how quickly a QB gets the ball out of his hands. That is the quick passing game:

like up tempo automatically means no huddle, that has to be the most benignly stupid thing I've ever heard, lots of quick plays happen after players huddle

You are talking about the quick passing game, NOT up-tempo. An Up-tempo offense must go no huddle or it gives time for the defense to substitute. No huddle also speeds up the pace of play, which is the entire point of an up-tempo offense, more plays. It has little to do with how fast the QB gets the ball out of his hands. An up-tempo offense can have the QB throw in under 1.5 seconds every time or hold the ball for 4-5 seconds.

Most up-tempo offenses have an overall goal to snap the ball as many times as possible. This usually falls into the range of 70-80 plays or more per game.

I want the most opportunities to score points. With this offense, you will have opportunities to score quickly with limited plays. That is fine, but you want more snaps. More snaps equals more opportunities to score.

https://coachesinsider.com/football/ove ... se-article

Now, if the goal is to protect the QB then the main ways to do that is establish an effective running game, play good defense, and give the QB less to think about like 2 reads and scramble (like was said before by you). Motion, play action, and up-tempo do not directly protect the QB.

[Pckfn23]

Not opinion, facts.

I bring it up so that we can talk about these subjects without having to needlessly debate the factual definitions. I would love to talk about why we see some of those things, but not if we have to go down the rabbit hole first.

Whoa, hold on there! I'm gonna need you to define "rabbit hole" before we go any further. Are we talkin' North American rabbit holes, or European rabbit holes? And where does Bug Bunny fit into this?

I guess we are down there regardless of the species...

[APB]

One of the funnier mic’d up moments I’ve heard…

[APB]

Cool moment.

…and yeah, I’m biased cuz I love this song too.