Week 16 Other Games

[lupedafiasco]

I know we don’t care much for AFC games but my god has Sean Payton turned around the Broncos with a rookie QB. I thought tue Broncos had one of the worst rosters in the league with no one to run the ball, no one to throw to, and no one to block. This offense can score though.

[Pckfn23]

SWEET! I got to see a free kick FG made! That was cool. I remember when Crosby attempted it.

[Pckfn23]

[Pckfn23]

Watching the Prime Vision cast for the first time, I love the overhead all-22!

[salmar80]

[williewasgreat]

I will never be able to forget when the Bears beat the Packers in 1968 on a fair catch FG. That's when I first learned about the rule. I always blamed Donny Anderson for kicking such a short punt.

[Labrev]

Our fans, at least on this site, have had such a weird hard-on for hating Sean Payton. Time to accept it, he is a good coach.

[Pckfn23]

Our fans, at least on this site, have had such a weird hard-on for hating Sean Payton. Time to accept it, he is a good coach.

[Raptorman]

SWEET! I got to see a free kick FG made! That was cool. I remember when Crosby attempted it.

That was the first one I ever saw attempted. The one last night that is. I had pretty much forgot about them.

[Raptorman]

I know we don’t care much for AFC games but my god has Sean Payton turned around the Broncos with a rookie QB. I thought tue Broncos had one of the worst rosters in the league with no one to run the ball, no one to throw to, and no one to block. This offense can score though.

First game I saw Nix in. He seems to be the real deal. Scans the field fast makes his decision as to what to do and then has a quick release. looks like a slightly smaller version of Josh Allen.

[APB]

Our fans, at least on this site, have had such a weird hard-on for hating Sean Payton. Time to accept it, he is a good coach.

I never disputed his coaching ability. Still don't like the dude.

His entry into the NFL was as a scab player during the 1987 players strike, crossing the picket lines while better men took a stand for what they rightly deserved as players. He allowed BountyGate as HC then tried to cover it up and fought his suspension while essentially pinning it all on one of his underling assistants. He regularly ran up scores against lesser opponents. He cries about officiating continually. He skipped out of New Orleans when the absurdly poor cap management practices he played a key role in manifesting were finally coming home to roost.

For a guy who preaches accountability, he has demonstrated a consistent lack of it be it personally, morally, or professionally.

[Labrev]

I never disputed his coaching ability. Still don't like the dude.

His entry into the NFL was as a scab player during the 1987 players strike, crossing the picket lines while better men took a stand for what they rightly deserved

Oh, he's a scab?? I didn't know that. Well then yeah, $%@# this dude forever. Convo's over.

[APB]

I never disputed his coaching ability. Still don't like the dude.

His entry into the NFL was as a scab player during the 1987 players strike, crossing the picket lines while better men took a stand for what they rightly deserved

Oh, he's a scab?? I didn't know that. Well then yeah, $%@# this dude forever. Convo's over.

It helps illustrate the me-first personality trait he has consistently displayed throughout his professional career.

[YoHoChecko]

Our fans, at least on this site, have had such a weird hard-on for hating Sean Payton. Time to accept it, he is a good coach.

I hate Sean Payton and think he's the same level of coach as Mike McCarthy and all the W-L info available backs that up. He's super overrated. The Broncos are doing much better than expected this year and he deserves kudos for that. But he also deserves the blame for them being garbage last year. He's fine. I don't have to admit anything differently than that. Tons of coaches win a surprising number of games in a season and have regular season winning records. Payton had Drew Brees forever and only got one Super bowl just like McCarthy had Rodgers and only got one.

Whatever flowers you give to Payton give to McCarthy; and when you bag on McCarthy, apply it to Payton. Plus, Payton is a punk $%@# and McCarthy is a good dude.

If you want to call that a hard-on for hating him, so be it. I call it facts.

[YoHoChecko]

Whatever flowers you give to Payton give to McCarthy; and when you bag on McCarthy, apply it to Payton. Plus, Payton is a punk $%@# and McCarthy is a good dude.

If you want to call that a hard-on for hating him, so be it. I call it facts.

To elaborate:

McCarthy was hired in 2006 at the age of 43 as a QB guru
Payton was hired in 2006 at the age of 43 as a QB guru

McCarthy won one Super Bowl (year 5) and made the playoffs 12 times in 18 years
Payton won one Super Bowl (year 4) and made the playoffs 11 times in 17 years

McCarthy's playoff record is 11-11
Payton's playoff record is 9-8

McCarthy's W-L percentage with two teams is .611 and he has 6 seasons with 12+ wins
Payton's W-L percentage with two teams is.619 and he has 5 seasons with 12+ wins

McCarthy revived Favre's production and developed Rodgers into a HoFer.
Payton revived Bress' early career and seems to be doing well with developing Bo Nix.

McCarthy has won 52 challenges in 107 attempts (48.6%)
Payton has won 58 challenges in 138 attempts (44.3%)

They have the same resume.

[go pak go]

Our fans, at least on this site, have had such a weird hard-on for hating Sean Payton. Time to accept it, he is a good coach.

I don't think it's hating Payton's results as a coach. It's more that the media always had a hard on for Payton but not McCarthy when McCarthy and Payton literally had the same results for the exception that MM did it with two QBs and Payton did it with only one.

Oh and Payton is a $%@#.

[Labrev]

Plus, Payton is a punk $%@# and McCarthy is a good dude.



To elaborate:

McCarthy was hired in 2006 at the age of 43 as a QB guru
Payton was hired in 2006 at the age of 43 as a QB guru

McCarthy won one Super Bowl (year 5) and made the playoffs 12 times in 18 years
Payton won one Super Bowl (year 4) and made the playoffs 11 times in 17 years

McCarthy's playoff record is 11-11
Payton's playoff record is 9-8

McCarthy's W-L percentage with two teams is .611 and he has 6 seasons with 12+ wins
Payton's W-L percentage with two teams is.619 and he has 5 seasons with 12+ wins

McCarthy revived Favre's production and developed Rodgers into a HoFer.
Payton revived Bress' early career and seems to be doing well with developing Bo Nix.

McCarthy has won 52 challenges in 107 attempts (48.6%)
Payton has won 58 challenges in 138 attempts (44.3%)

They have the same resume.

Well the main flaw here, mainly as it relates to winning success (which is glossed over by just looking at the W/L numbers), is that when McCarthy's teams have been bad it has been due to poor offense, which is the side of the ball he handles, whereas Payton's bad teams have been bad due to bad defense, not offense, the latter which Payton (more directly) handles.

'Pretty significant difference there.

I will admit in retrospect McCarthy is not as bad of a coach as I used to say when I ragged on him pretty hard those last couple years. He bounced back and was legit pretty good in Dallas. I thought he was mediocre. He is not. He is good.

But having said that, Payton is more than a little better than him.

But having said THAT, scabs can't be tolerated, so $%@# him. Mike McCarthy RULEZ!!! Sean Payton DROOLZ!!!!!!!

Whatever flowers you give to Payton give to McCarthy;

Okay but what if, instead of doing that, .... I just didn't do that.

If you want to call that a hard-on for hating him, so be it. I call it facts.

Actually, it's an opinion.

[YoHoChecko]

Well the main flaw here, mainly as it relates to winning success (which is glossed over by just looking at the W/L numbers), is that when McCarthy's teams have been bad it has been due to poor offense, which is the side of the ball he handles, whereas Payton's bad teams have been bad due to bad defense, not offense, the latter which Payton (more directly) handles.

'Pretty significant difference there.

I will admit in retrospect McCarthy is not as bad of a coach as I used to say when I ragged on him pretty hard those last couple years. He bounced back and was legit pretty good in Dallas. I thought he was mediocre. He is not. He is good.

But having said that, Payton is more than a little better than him.

I disagree with everything you just said. Now THOSE are opinions.

But the facts I listed are facts.

And head coaches are hired to manage the whole team. And McCarthy's offenses were often very very good anyway. The Packers often failed due to defense, not offense. The Saints often had tough defenses. Everything you said here is debatable at best!


McCarthy and Payton have the same resume, the same results, and McCarthy actually developed a QB from scratch while Payton signed a free agent fresh off his breakout year in the league (but still made him much better). Payton is not more than a little better than McCarthy. It's arguable if he is any better at all.

[Labrev]

I disagree with everything you just said. Now THOSE are opinions. But the facts I listed are facts.

I didn't say they weren't.

But no, "better" is a qualitative assessment based on whatever criteria you have arbitrarily chosen to mean "better," hence opinion.

As is for that matter saying a guy is a "punk" or a "good dude" ... those are opinions, no matter what facts are used to back them up.

And head coaches are hired to manage the whole team.

Of course, but obviously it is a much bigger problem and a much bigger indictment of your coaching if the unit that you handle is bad, than if the unit you have delegated to a coordinator to run is bad. The latter is also the HC's responsibility, no argument there, but the main responsibility is the unit they handle.

On that note, we have not really seen a bad Sean Payton offense, other than Year 1 in Denver, which was understandable under the circumstances.

Even those subpar, three straight 7-9 Saints teams, which are basically the only real low-point in Payton's career other than Year 1 DEN, were pretty productive on O.

And McCarthy's offenses were often very very good anyway. The Packers often failed due to defense, not offense. The Saints often had tough defenses. Everything you said here is debatable at best!

I said the "bad teams" in his GB tenure, not simply when we "failed" like coming up short in the playoffs. If we are going there, I am of the mind that our offense also played poorly in most of those losses (with only, like, two exceptions).

But more to the point, we both watched those Packers teams in 2017 and 2018. 2017, yes, Rodgers was out (don't get me started on him using Hundley as an excuse), but still, his unit was the issue. They were shut-out at home twice that year. Our QB was a guy he had two full years to develop.

2018, if we had any doubt that Mac had lost a step as a O coach, Rodgers was back, but they were poor again, and bad enough that he was fired after a Josh Rosen-led offense did better than ours. Conversely, again, say what you want about him but we have not really seen an offense look bad under Sean Payton.

McCarthy and Payton have the same resume, the same results,

The on-paper results are pretty similar, sure, but I maintain there is a bit more to the story. Sometimes good coaches are in bad situations, and mid coaches are in situations that make them look a lot better than they are, so "results" are not really be-all.

and McCarthy actually developed a QB from scratch while Payton signed a free agent fresh off his breakout year in the league (but still made him much better).

I had to delete what I wrote on McCarthy's QB development "prowess" because it became TL;DR BS very quickly. Let's just say, we have not seen him do it without Tom Clements (also true of MLF, btw).

Let's also not forget, Mac was in SF when Rodgers was in the draft, and he concluded that Alex Smith was the guy to develop at QB. Like, he is literally the reason SF did that and ended up with a vastly inferior player there. Even when Smith became a playable QB1, he never held a candle to Rodgers, and frankly evokes the famous AR quote of "my down years are career years for other QBs."

[YoHoChecko]

QB evaluation (Smith vs Rodgers) and QB development are very different things. One has nothing to do with the other. That's a totally moot point.

You talk about coaches in bad situations and like Payton only ever had bad situations when they were his fault (suspended for breaking rules). Payton also had Carmichael his whole career with the Saints as OC and so anything you want to say about Clements you can say about Carmichael ESPECIALLY when you consider that a 1-year sample size with Nix (plus watching the Steelers win with Russel Wilson) isn't a lot to write home about.

You also need to consider how the Broncos were viewed when Payton arrived. Now, I personally think this was overblown and not accurate, but they were seen as an ideal destination for Rodgers because they were a "QB away" from contending. They missed on Rodgers, got Wilson, and then looked mediocre at best under Payton's management. You say "given the circumstances" but the league perception at the time was Payton was going to a plumb gig.

It's hard to blame circumstances over a 18-year period. The FACTS are that they have achieved the same things. They both coached HoF QBs who make the job of winning exponentially easier. McCarthy, by the way, DID develop a QB without Clements because Dak Prescott was a rookie 4th round pick when he was elevated to the Cowboys' starting job and he blew away expectations and is now one of the league's highest paid (and most overpaid) QBs. McCarthy has been the most successful Cowboys HC since the 1990s because their ownership structure and circumstances have been very challenging to manage.

Payton came to Denver with fanfare and a QB they personally selected to trade for and pay and it didn't work. Now he has a hyper-accurate first-round pick at the helm and they are 9-6. Pretty good!

But Payton has a reputation that exceeds his results. His offenses were always good but he also always had Brees and he always had Carmichael and in 18 years he has no more to show from his efforts than McCarthy does. To say that MM somehow had an easier job for 12 years in Green Bay AND 6 years in Dallas is pretty silly. Payton is a fine coach. McCarthy is a fine coach. They both have shortcomings and strengths. They both had HoF QBs at the helm for the bulk of their HC careers. They both always had better offenses than defenses. They both had well-respected GMs doing the grocery shopping. And one guy is still considered some kind of genius and the other guy is routinely thought of as barely hanging on.


There's simply no care that Payton is a better head coach than McCarthy. Anything you say about it involves all sorts of somersaults and contradictions and cherry-picking. Over a long enough period of time, ability and circumstances really balance out. They have been around for a long time. And their results are the same. And any case about who had it worse can be made in different directions, hence the balancing out over long time periods.