Charles Woodson and the Lambeau Field Ring of Glory

[salmar80]

I am not saying that Rodgers is not a good QB. He is very good. But he is not even the best QB of his generation, Brady is. Nor is he the best Packers QB, Starr was. Can you imagine Bart taking so much cap room that the Packers would have to let good teammates walk? I cannot. Starr always put the team ahead of himself. Brady has almost always come up big when it matters most, so did Peyton.

As far as football players in general, I can easily think of many that were better than Rodgers, even if Rodgers wins his 2nd SB this year. Because of the position he plays, he is the current MVP of the Packers but he is not even the best football player on the team right now. Rodgers isn't even in the same league as Woodson or for that matter Hornung.

Permanently retiring his number is absurd. Why not retire Bakh's number. Why not Jaire and Z and Clark and Adams and maybe Jenkins too?

Uh. What. This is ridiculous. So ridiculous that I suspect ulterior motivations for the dislike.

Woodson goes on the ring easily. As does Rodgers. Rodgers almost certainly gets his number retired. He is the best QB of all time. He is far from the best leader or teammate, but in terms of QB skill, he is the best. He also has 3 MVPs and may very well win another one this year.

On another note, yes we will eventually have to find a solution to the problem of limited space for our honored greats, but the solution isn't to start denying NFL legends the reward of having their name up there because they happened to play for a 100-year old franchise. Woodson is an NFL legend. So is Reggie White. Ted Thompson is iffy in terms of being an NFL legend, but his 5 years or so after taking over were some of the best talent acquisition years ever, so he should probably go up there. We could easily just move the years section to be in line with the name, and then we'd have double the spots available.

First of all, having your name on the ring and having your number retired are 2 different things. You could easily put 50 names on the ring but you can't retire 50 numbers unless you go to a 3 digit uniform number.

Secondly anyone who believes Rodgers is the best QB of all time is out of reality. Brady is clearly better. Starr was better - Rodgers would not last 2 weeks with the lack of protection against roughing the passer that Starr had to endure, nor would he be able to play the way he does if he had to deal with actually getting hit. Johnny Unitas was better. Peyton Manning was better - he was so dominant that he changed the way plays are called and how defenses are called. Montana, Graham, Staubach, Tarkington and Young and Marino were better. The second tier includes Rodgers but it also includes Brees and Favre and Wilson and Warner, all of whom may/are/were better. In an objective all time ranking that takes into account the rules changes on roughing the passer and sliding down without getting speared and championships, Rodgers would be hard pressed to make it into the top 20. He is the beneficiary of the pansy rules for QB's and receivers and he could not be effective without them.

But even if you measure only QB's now playing, he is not the best current QB. Based solely on stats, he is #10 this year: https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-w ... n-rankings. If you take into account the strength of the team around him, he still is probably abut #20.

I get it, being a homer is not a bad thing. But be a homer for the real stars of this team. Adams and Jones and Dillon and Clark and Gary and Alexander and Campbell. And soon, I hope Bakh and Myers and Z.

I personally don't think AR is the best QB of all time. Since I've only followed football since 1997, can't really compare him with the stars of past eras, so I'll take your word for it. But saying he's not a star of this team is preposterous.

Has this been his best season to date? No. Still, this week he was 2nd behind Murray in good old passer rating (QBs with 5+ starts) and 3rd in ESPN's fancy QBR. That's unlikely to change after the super smart performance vs the Rams. And this is with key injuries on OL, not the greatest overall receiving corps, and missing TE1 for several games. I have no idea why you linked some article from week 7. Are there other stars on this team? Yes, which is great, and several key role players. AR doesn't have to carry us in every game.

As for career, he can't travel back in time and play in another era. What AR has done is to be awesome in the era and under the rules of his time. That's all any QB can do. He has the two best regular season QB ratings in history. He is the best ever at avoiding turnovers. In fact, the throws so few INTs, we take lack of 'em for granted. He has thrown three pick-6s in his career, and that is a number to behold. Favre threw 31, Peyton 27, Brady 17...

The only knocks on AR are the lack of more SB wins, which is a biggie, and a personality that rubs people the wrong way. Ring of Honor spot is assured, but I personally don't like retiring jersey numbers, so I wouldn't complain if we don't do that.

I know many are preparing emotionally to move on from Rodgers after this season. I just wish we could find it in ourselves to enjoy watching a great one play for the time that he has left with us.

[TheSkeptic]

I am not saying that AR has not been a star of this team. He has been and sometimes he still is. But he is not THE STAR.

The injuries to the Oline are real and severe and even if they get Bakh back after the bye, he is unlikely to be what he was for well into January. If they also get Myers healthy and Newman continues to improve the Oline will be better than average when it counts most, playoff time.

I disagree with several people's opinion that the WR corps is weak. How can it be weak when it has Adams, who is the best WR in the league? TE is weak since Tonyan went down but the combination of Dillon and Jones is the best receiving RB tandem in the league. The knock on Cobb was that he could not stay healthy but this year he has been. IMO the Packers have a top 5 group of WR's. And this, with Jordy and others has been true for the bulk of AR's career. And don't forget Finley who was unstoppable until he got hurt.

It certainly is unfair to judge AR according to the rules of the 60's and 70's. but it is equally unfair to judge Starr or Unitas or even Peyton according to modern rules. Nevertheless, 1 thing has not changed, QB is the most important position. And that an average team with a top 2 QB in the league should make more than 1 trip in 13 years as a starter to the league championship game. And IMO the Packers have been better than average almost all 13 of those seasons.

I totally agree with the idea that we ought to enjoy every game where we see a great performance, whether it is from Rodgers or anyone else. Having a a good team to watch year in and year out ought to be enjoyed.

[Yoop]

I disagree with several people's opinion that the WR corps is weak. How can it be weak when it has Adams, who is the best WR in the league? TE is weak since Tonyan went down but the combination of Dillon and Jones is the best receiving RB tandem in the league. The knock on Cobb was that he could not stay healthy but this year he has been. IMO the Packers have a top 5 group of WR's. And this, with Jordy and others has been true for the bulk of AR's career. And don't forget Finley who was unstoppable until he got hurt.

nonsense, you saw what I've been saying about Lazard for 2 years yesterday, he to often drops what good receivers catch, MVS still can't run a route consistently, it's why Rodgers can't build chemistry with him, our problems sporadically on offense have to do with receivers not being able to beat one on one coverage, the OL protection issues and poor run blocking, and these issues are obvious to anyone minus rose colored glasses.

Also Rodgers is the best pure passing QB this franchise ever had, ( my opinion) I loved Bart Starr, and he was excellent too, I don't think he was as good, defenses back then where built to stop the run, Bart often threw to wide open receivers, Aaron on the other hand threads his passes through the arms and by the ear hole of double covered receivers in practically every game.

we all saw just how good Rodgers is when he has a quality receiving core, problem is, and why memory has lapsed, is because those receivers have been gone now for about 5 years, only Adams, and Cobb who is a shadow of his 2014 self remain, the top 5 receiver group on the field yesterday belonged to our opponent and they missed there top guy, and if it weren't for our great defense and Staffords errant throws we probably would have lost.

[APB]

MVS still can't run a route consistently, it's why Rodgers can't build chemistry with him, our problems sporadically on offense have to do with receivers not being able to beat one on one coverage

This is becoming an outdated complaint.

Correction: has become.

MVS has been every bit a quality WR in just about every aspect since late last season. We have even remarked here on this forum how he has become more of a possession target and consistently open. He's been making tough catches with relative regularity, too.

The fact Rodgers prefers targeting the best overall WR in the game should not be a negative mark on MVS. MVS has shown when the defense overly commits to Adams, he is more than capable of stepping up. Just because Rodgers continues to prefer to force it to Adams does not mean MVS's struggles have continued.

And the chemistry thing is largely on Rodgers. MVS was here for all of off-season OTA's, mini-camps, and training camp. MVS doesn't sit out practices when he's able to participate. MVS puts the team practice work in. I'm not sure you can say the same for Rodgers albeit and admittedly a lot of that isn't up to him, it's a training staff thing. However, blaming the chemistry short-comings (how many Rodgers' overthrows of a streaking and open MVS have we seen this season?) solely on MVS is wholly disingenuous.

[Yoop]

MVS still can't run a route consistently, it's why Rodgers can't build chemistry with him, our problems sporadically on offense have to do with receivers not being able to beat one on one coverage

This is becoming an outdated complaint.

Correction: has become.

MVS has been every bit a quality WR in just about every aspect since late last season. We have even remarked here on this forum how he has become more of a possession target and consistently open. He's been making tough catches with relative regularity, too.

The fact Rodgers prefers targeting the best overall WR in the game should not be a negative mark on MVS. MVS has shown when the defense overly commits to Adams, he is more than capable of stepping up. Just because Rodgers continues to prefer to force it to Adams does not mean MVS's struggles have continued.

And the chemistry thing is largely on Rodgers. MVS was here for all of off-season OTA's, mini-camps, and training camp. MVS doesn't sit out practices when he's able to participate. MVS puts the team practice work in. I'm not sure you can say the same for Rodgers albeit and admittedly a lot of that isn't up to him, it's a training staff thing. However, blaming the chemistry short-comings (how many Rodgers' overthrows of a streaking and open MVS have we seen this season?) solely on MVS is wholly disingenuous.

Rodgers targets Adams because Adams catches the balls, MVS has improved, but he doesn't catch the balls as often and he does not get open, all this talk of Rodgers not spreading the balls around is non sense, check the game logs, typically 5 to 9 different receivers catch passes, if MVS got open more Rodgers would target him more.

I agree, Rodgers has not had enough practice (all his fault), yet he hits Lazard in the hands just as he does with EQ etc, MVS less often, or when he does MVS drops 50% of them.

I get so tired of people defending these receivers, most of em wouldn't even make a contending teams roster, can you imagine Rodgers with the Rams group, or KC, or some of the other WR groups.

[go pak go]

I legit don't recall one drop by MVS this year. And I also can't think of any balls thrown his way that he should have had and didn't.

He is turning into a #2 WR. And he'd be a lot more productive if #12 put the ball where it needs to be. Really hard for me to complain or fault MVS at all. He has played fantastic.

[Pckfn23]

MVS has 0 drop in 2021 and has NEVER come close to dropping 50% of the passes that hit him in the hands.

The Packers WR Corp is top 10 in the league: Adams, Valdes-Scantling, Cobb, Lazard, St. Brown.

[Yoop]

MVS has 0 drop in 2021 and has NEVER come close to dropping 50% of the passes that hit him in the hands.

The Packers WR Corp is top 10 in the league: Adams, Valdes-Scantling, Cobb, Lazard, St. Brown.

are you &%$@ me? MVS has been targeted 39 times and has 17 receptions and the only people with over 20 receptions are the two RB's, Cobb and Adams, the rest like MVS are in the teens, top 10 WR core my ass.

like I said it's laugh out loud funny the way some of you defend what is obviously a one man show with Adams

[Pckfn23]

MVS catching 17 of 39 targets is not dropping 50% of the passes that hit his hands. He has 0 drops in 2021.

MVS has been injured and missed 5 games. When available, he has been a solid #2 in 2021.

Name the 10 WR corps in the NFL that are appreciably better than the Packers.

[go pak go]

MVS has 0 drop in 2021 and has NEVER come close to dropping 50% of the passes that hit him in the hands.

The Packers WR Corp is top 10 in the league: Adams, Valdes-Scantling, Cobb, Lazard, St. Brown.

I agree with this. Or at the least a top 10 to top 15 in the league. I would put the Packers as a top half WR unit as well.

The teams below I would put at or above GB's unit.

NFC Top WR Unit Teams (no particular order)
1. Seattle
2. LA Rams
3. Arizona
4. Minnesota
5. Dallas
6. Tampa Bay

AFC Top WR Unit Teams (no particular order)
1. Kansas City (if including Kelce)
2. Cincinnati
3. Tennessee
4. Buffalo

So yeah. I think Top 10 area is definitely reasonable.

[Yoop]

I legit don't recall one drop by MVS this year. And I also can't think of any balls thrown his way that he should have had and didn't.

He is turning into a #2 WR. And he'd be a lot more productive if #12 put the ball where it needs to be. Really hard for me to complain or fault MVS at all. He has played fantastic.

stop it, your making a fool of yourself 39 targets, 17 receptions is not a #2 receiver, not on any pro team ever, not on a run first team either, Cobb is 28 of 39 targets, and even that is not worthy of #2 status.
I know ya got a Packer Jones a working here, and you have both pair of green and gold glasses on, probably wearing G & G socks, but lets live in the real NFL a moment, MVS is on pace for about 23 receptions, name another team that has a #2 with stats like that?

we need to spend a couple high picks on WR, that would be something that would help next years QB whom ever it might be.

[go pak go]

I legit don't recall one drop by MVS this year. And I also can't think of any balls thrown his way that he should have had and didn't.

He is turning into a #2 WR. And he'd be a lot more productive if #12 put the ball where it needs to be. Really hard for me to complain or fault MVS at all. He has played fantastic.

stop it, your making a fool of yourself

Oh yoop.....

[Yoop]

I legit don't recall one drop by MVS this year. And I also can't think of any balls thrown his way that he should have had and didn't.

He is turning into a #2 WR. And he'd be a lot more productive if #12 put the ball where it needs to be. Really hard for me to complain or fault MVS at all. He has played fantastic.

stop it, your making a fool of yourself

Oh yoop.....

Rodgers missed him a few times, sure, I'd accept that, but not 22 times, he's missed every receiver a few times, but look at Cobb, 28 receptions on 39 targets.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... b/2021.htm

[go pak go]

stop it, your making a fool of yourself

Oh yoop.....

Rodgers missed him a few times, sure, I'd accept that, but not 22 times, he's missed every receiver a few times, but look at Cobb, 28 receptions on 39 targets.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... b/2021.htm

Honestly....?

He has.

We have literally commented on it after every game this season. I honest to goodness cannot recall a catch that wasn't made this season where I pinned it on MVS.

[Pckfn23]

Marquez Valdes-Scantling does not have a 50% drop rate, and has a 0% drop rate in 2021. It is not about accepting something or not accepting it, it is about reality. He has not dropped a ball this season.

That Cobb has caught 28 of his 39 targets does not mean he has a 28% drop rate in 2021.

[go pak go]

Marquez Valdes-Scantling does not have a 50% drop rate, and has a 0% drop rate in 2021. It is not about accepting something or not accepting it, it is about reality. He has not dropped a ball this season.

That Cobb has caught 28 of his 39 targets does not mean he has a 28% drop rate in 2021.

I think he understands it isn't a drop rate, but I think he is simply looking at the difference in catch rate between MVS and Cobb being so different that some of the issues must be pinned on MVS because a sub 50% catch rate is really bad.

But honestly, this is a unique situation where I wouldn't put the poor catch rate on the WR. Like at all. I think this is purely on 12.

Yesterday again was a prime example. Easy TD. MVS did everythign he was supposed to do and Rodgers just overshot him.

Add the fact that MVS is literally EVERY throw away ball when Rodgers is in trouble. I bet you 10 targets to MVS are simply "throw aways" this season.

[Yoop]

Marquez Valdes-Scantling does not have a 50% drop rate, and has a 0% drop rate in 2021. It is not about accepting something or not accepting it, it is about reality. He has not dropped a ball this season.

That Cobb has caught 28 of his 39 targets does not mean he has a 28% drop rate in 2021.

I think he understands it isn't a drop rate, but I think he is simply looking at the difference in catch rate between MVS and Cobb being so different that some of the issues must be pinned on MVS because a sub 50% catch rate is really bad.

But honestly, this is a unique situation where I wouldn't put the poor catch rate on the WR. Like at all. I think this is purely on 12.

Yesterday again was a prime example. Easy TD. MVS did everythign he was supposed to do and Rodgers just overshot him.

Add the fact that MVS is literally EVERY throw away ball when Rodgers is in trouble. I bet you 10 targets to MVS are simply "throw aways" this season.

if ya average MVS out per season he catches less the 50% of balls thrown his way, as I said MVS does not run the routes at the same speed, that is the biggest reason for the catch to throw discrepancy, I'am not just making this &%$@ up, ask any person that you respect more then me and they will tell you the same thing, either he doesn't get a clean release, or he fails to run the route on schedule.

anyone thats ever played QB will tell you when a receiver lacks consistency running the route the QB will never know where to throw the ball, MVS = 43% catch rate, no one else is less then 50%, sure some are throw aways, but 53% of them, come on.

[Pckfn23]

Actually you are making it up, especially 2021. The reason being is because it is impossible to prove or disprove without being part of the organization.

Let's ask a simple question, why would MVS still be playing as much as he does if he is running the routes incorrectly, 50% of the time?

[go pak go]

Marquez Valdes-Scantling does not have a 50% drop rate, and has a 0% drop rate in 2021. It is not about accepting something or not accepting it, it is about reality. He has not dropped a ball this season.

That Cobb has caught 28 of his 39 targets does not mean he has a 28% drop rate in 2021.

I think he understands it isn't a drop rate, but I think he is simply looking at the difference in catch rate between MVS and Cobb being so different that some of the issues must be pinned on MVS because a sub 50% catch rate is really bad.

But honestly, this is a unique situation where I wouldn't put the poor catch rate on the WR. Like at all. I think this is purely on 12.

Yesterday again was a prime example. Easy TD. MVS did everythign he was supposed to do and Rodgers just overshot him.

Add the fact that MVS is literally EVERY throw away ball when Rodgers is in trouble. I bet you 10 targets to MVS are simply "throw aways" this season.

if ya average MVS out per season he catches less the 50% of balls thrown his way, as I said MVS does not run the routes at the same speed, that is the biggest reason for the catch to throw discrepancy, I'am not just making this &%$@ up, ask any person that you respect more then me and they will tell you the same thing, either he doesn't get a clean release, or he fails to run the route on schedule.

anyone thats ever played QB will tell you when a receiver lacks consistency running the route the QB will never know where to throw the ball, COMMON FREAKING SENSE WILL TELL YOU THAT, and still you argue.

I will agree about the inconsistency in 2018 and 2019.

But starting in 2020 and especially into 2021 here, I just don't buy it. The person I respect the most on this matter is the person who is actually throwing him the ball. Rodgers made no qualms of throwing MVS under the bus in 2018 and 2019. But starting in 2020 the language started to turn around and in 2021 Rodgers has done nothing but apologize to MVS because he knows he is flat out missing MVS.

It is strange that he is missing MVS so much. You would honsestly think higher speed would give better "run under the ball performance" but the chemistry of Rodgers to MVS is just bad.

And it's too bad because this duo could be such a weapon.

[YoHoChecko]

I was interested to see what the ongoing conversation about Charles Woodson was--maybe he gave a great halftime speech again. Maybe he had some interesting post-game thoughts about the Packers' young corners.

Shouldn't have clicked.