Future of political talk on the forum

[salmar80]

The Mod team would like to put the future of political talk on the forum up for debate.

We've all had some time to see how the new packers-huddle.com and the approach we took with it has been working.

What do y'all think is the right approach for the future? And crucially, why?

As the Mod team sees it, the future of political talk falls under 3 main options. We're not doing a poll, at least not yet, since we want open-ended answers and ideas regarding them.

1) Status quo refined: No Podium, only the most minimal and civil of political talk allowed in the heavily moderated Cheesehead Chatter. There's an apparent need to create clearer guidelines for what is allowed and what is not. Once decided, we would try our best to moderate along those lines.

2) Podium 2.0: Separate sub-forum to talk politics. Like on PN.net, but with a twist: Partial self-moderation. We'd ask a few active political talkers to be Podium-only moderators. No politics allowed elsewhere on the forum. Normal forum core rules would apply to political talk, but moderation would be more lax than in current Cheesehead Chatter.

3) A separate Podium forum: A Wild West to tlak politics, but not at the packers-huddle.com address. A separate forum with separate mods. They can decide how it goes. No politics, or current Chatter -level minimal politics, allowed on packers-huddle.com.

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Here's my take:

The heart and core of this forum is football talk. All other sub-forums are side attractions - friends with a shared football hobby talking about other things in life, with the purpose of creating a tighter community.

PN.net's Podium had major problems for a sideshow. The discussions routinely devolved into insults and nastiness that was clearly against the rules. Left unmoderated, that style of discussion and those personal schisms would squirm their way into the football side of the forum. It has been tried before, and the results exclude it from available options. Anything messing up football talk can never ever be allowed - and it's a big reason most fan forums ban all political talk.

But we tried to have a Podium and to moderate it per overall forum rules, to encourage civil debate. It was a struggle even JustJeff couldn't win. A Podium with ~10 active posters took up about 90% of the mods' time. It wasn't fun, and frankly, it didn't feel worth it. No one was learning anything from the "debates". Here's a Podium thread in a nutshell: "Topic Whatever is important" -> "Agree, but Party/President X's opinion about Topic Whatever is terrible!" -> "No, it/he is the bestest! Your Party/President Y is the worstest!" -> "No it/he isn't!" -> "Is too!" -> "No way! You're such a.... -> ".

That said, banning ALL politics is problematic. It's impossible to draw a hard line between what is political and what is not. Every now and then there are important football -related topics (kneeling, Tebow) and other topics important to all posters' lives (Covid-19, current protests) where there's unavoidable overlap with politics. Would be a shame to just ignore those topics. And sometimes you need an outlet.

I'd personally be fine with either option 1) or 2). As for option 3), there are already oodles of dedicated politics forums. No need for another one.

Excited to hear what y'all think!

[salmar80]

Case in point:

When the Packers release something like this, I'd like to be able to discuss it with y'all. The question is: In what way can we best arrange a space for that on this forum? Or should we, at all?

Please don't comment on the subject matter in this thread. Just whether and how we should organize that talk.

[Carl Gerbschmidt]

I have to say it is pointless, it is the same arguments from both sides on every single topic. No one is ever coverted or their mind changed.

[Pckfn23]

1. 2 will never work. 1 barely works now and has devolved at times. I can give you 1 VERY specific example and the exact reason why it would devolve quickly if left to it's own devices, PM if you want. Political talk devolves and leads to the decrease in the sense of community. It's been evident for over a decade that that happens on a regular basis. As both mentioned above, the environment is far too hyper partisan to have a real civil debate. Either completely ignore discourse on topics outside or football or severely limit it to topics that may not devolve. Maybe even have a specific level-headed admin who starts topics they deem football/society related. No one else starts said topics.

[Gunzaan]

1. 2 will never work. 1 barely works now and has devolved at times. I can give you 1 VERY specific example and the exact reason why it would devolve quickly if left to it's own devices, PM if you want. Political talk devolves and leads to the decrease in the sense of community. It's been evident for over a decade that that happens on a regular basis. As both mentioned above, the environment is far too hyper partisan to have a real civil debate. Either completely ignore discourse on topics outside or football or severely limit it to topics that may not devolve. Maybe even have a specific level-headed admin who starts topics they deem football/society related. No one else starts said topics.

I would counter by saying that’s your personal perspective on it and add that lingering feelings might be a personality thing and how one reacts to constructive conflict.

I’m not going to vote - I’ll leave that to more prominent members. I will say that I have personally learned quite a few things from these topics in the past. Anything from new information to a level-headed perspective opposite of mine so that I think about an aspect of the topic I wasn’t considering before. To me, there is a decent mix of perspectives here from a range of age groups and life situations - I appreciate that.

I can understand a move to eliminate it all together but it’s hard to avoid a lot of this stuff when sports is tied into and an integral part of the world around us. As far as the concept of it affecting the community, I can see both sides. I would say that the community can be affected a lot more by condescending and poor communication skills on the main forum then they are on this one.

[Drj820]

i can see how just straight up political talk isnt really helpful. Wouldn't convince anyone of anything anyways. However, there are things that are NOT political in nature, but because everything in our country is seen through political lens...then it is seen as political. For instance, the chat about the protest was shut down QUICK. Thats fine, moderators prerogative..i just think thats a real thing happening in our cities and not necessarily immediately political.

Also the thing with Drew Brees. Zadarius put a pic on his insta of the game ticket for the saints game. Obviously saying "Im coming for you brees", but can we even discuss that? Or is that "political" because the root is flag discussion?

I guess straight up political talk about candidates and stuff, i see there isn't much value in it. But some stuff affects us, or the packers are discussing, that are grouped in with politics...i would like to see that stuff be discussable. Or at least clear rules about what is and isnt cool to talk about.

[TheGreenMan]

I didn't post at all in the Podium back at the old forum. I would find myself every now and then browsing/lurking.. and from an outsider looking in, it was just a bunch of posters throwing arguments around (that nobody was going to side with). If it wasn't that, links of articles were being shared to attempt to further sway opinion. My guess, they weren't read. Did I learn anything? Only that everyone has their side of things.

I'm here to talk football. And the occasional conversation in the Cheesehead Chatter. As someone that didn't partake in the political discussion, I will say I didn't see a lot of it spilling over into the football discussions. Unless it was just squashed rather quickly. In the almost two decades that I've been posting on versions of PackersNews, I can only think of one single time I had to call someone out on it in the football discussion.

With that being said, I don't feel heavily either way about it. And that might be because I don't like to talk politics to begin with. It really just boils down to what you mods want to deal with. Hats off to any of you willing to do that, but if I were in those shoes I wouldn't be a mod much longer that's for sure.

[Packfntk]

I look at it as simple as this. This is a Packer Forum first. We all come here for that reason first. Obviously, this is also a community. A lot of us have posted together for years, even decades. With that, and with the nature of everything going on in the world, things come up. All we ask is that IF you engage in some sort of these talks, just be a good human about it. If you cannot refrain from name calling, getting offended, just stop yourself from getting pulled in or making comments. It doesn't help anyone, and you will never EVER change anyone's opinion or political thinking from posting something on a message board. Thanks.

Go Pack Go.

[Drj820]

I didn't post at all in the Podium back at the old forum. I would find myself every now and then browsing/lurking.. and from an outsider looking in, it was just a bunch of posters throwing arguments around (that nobody was going to side with). If it wasn't that, links of articles were being shared to attempt to further sway opinion. My guess, they weren't read. Did I learn anything? Only that everyone has their side of things.

I'm here to talk football. And the occasional conversation in the Cheesehead Chatter. As someone that didn't partake in the political discussion, I will say I didn't see a lot of it spilling over into the football discussions. Unless it was just squashed rather quickly. In the almost two decades that I've been posting on versions of PackersNews, I can only think of one single time I had to call someone out on it in the football discussion.

With that being said, I don't feel heavily either way about it. And that might be because I don't like to talk politics to begin with. It really just boils down to what you mods want to deal with. Hats off to any of you willing to do that, but if I were in those shoes I wouldn't be a mod much longer that's for sure.

i king of agree that podium is like the basement or cess pool of Packers huddle. There is plenty of room on the main floor, and no one has to go down there. The cess should never reach the main floor. That should be prevented at all cost. But if you want to go jump in the huddles basement and battle it out over politics, i see no harm in it. Podium was around at the old site, i never posted in it, and it never affected my experience on the main page at all.

[Packfntk]

i king of agree that podium is like the basement or cess pool of Packers huddle. There is plenty of room on the main floor, and no one has to go down there. The cess should never reach the main floor. That should be prevented at all cost. But if you want to go jump in the huddles basement and battle it out over politics, i see no harm in it. Podium was around at the old site, i never posted in it, and it never affected my experience on the main page at all.

Well it did affect a lot of people's experience and that is why we are here today with no podium today. People get heated way too often in politics, and going into that section was actually painful. Like you said, it was a cess pool of people name calling, getting offended, etc. IMO there are enough avenues in your real life to discuss that, I don't think a full section of it belongs in a Packer Forum. Just my two cents.

[wallyuwl]

I think a mix between 1 and 2. I think it can go into the Cheesehead Chatter sub-forum, too. In the PN.net, the main forum got a lot of traffic, the Podium got quite a bit, and everything else got next to nothing. I don't think having some politics in the Chatter forum is/would be bad, and it gives other topics (like, what are you watching) traffic. I also think there should be a place for non-football specific things to be discussed, especially because there is huge portion of the year where there is not a lot going on football-wise.

I don't think the Wild West is helpful, whether a separate site or not. There should be some moderating but only if it gets nasty. So far in Chatter I don't think it has gotten out of hand. People just need to be more civil; myself included at times. And not get baited. I don't frequent the forum as much as in the past, partly due to life happening and other obligations. I have made a conscious attempt to not interact in the Podium and Chatter with those who I know are just looking for an argument.

[Drj820]

i king of agree that podium is like the basement or cess pool of Packers huddle. There is plenty of room on the main floor, and no one has to go down there. The cess should never reach the main floor. That should be prevented at all cost. But if you want to go jump in the huddles basement and battle it out over politics, i see no harm in it. Podium was around at the old site, i never posted in it, and it never affected my experience on the main page at all.

Well it did affect a lot of people's experience and that is why we are here today with no podium today. People get heated way too often in politics, and going into that section was actually painful. Like you said, it was a cess pool of people name calling, getting offended, etc. IMO there are enough avenues in your real life to discuss that, I don't think a full section of it belongs in a Packer Forum. Just my two cents.

sounds good. im good either way. Just didnt affect me i guess.

[Pckfn23]

1. 2 will never work. 1 barely works now and has devolved at times. I can give you 1 VERY specific example and the exact reason why it would devolve quickly if left to it's own devices, PM if you want. Political talk devolves and leads to the decrease in the sense of community. It's been evident for over a decade that that happens on a regular basis. As both mentioned above, the environment is far too hyper partisan to have a real civil debate. Either completely ignore discourse on topics outside or football or severely limit it to topics that may not devolve. Maybe even have a specific level-headed admin who starts topics they deem football/society related. No one else starts said topics.

I would counter by saying that’s your personal perspective on it and add that lingering feelings might be a personality thing and how one reacts to constructive conflict.

The problem, as you have shown here as well, is that people don't want to be constructive, they want to shout at the top of their lungs their opinion, for the most part, without providing evidence of said opinion, same happens in the football forum. They aren't truly interested in learning or sharing, they want to Trump everyone not of their opinion. And I say this as one as well. There has rarely, if ever, been constructive conflict in the Podium. It's too heated. Football at least we have a firm common ground.

[Pckfn23]

I didn't post at all in the Podium back at the old forum. I would find myself every now and then browsing/lurking.. and from an outsider looking in, it was just a bunch of posters throwing arguments around (that nobody was going to side with). If it wasn't that, links of articles were being shared to attempt to further sway opinion. My guess, they weren't read. Did I learn anything? Only that everyone has their side of things.

I'm here to talk football. And the occasional conversation in the Cheesehead Chatter. As someone that didn't partake in the political discussion, I will say I didn't see a lot of it spilling over into the football discussions. Unless it was just squashed rather quickly. In the almost two decades that I've been posting on versions of PackersNews, I can only think of one single time I had to call someone out on it in the football discussion.

With that being said, I don't feel heavily either way about it. And that might be because I don't like to talk politics to begin with. It really just boils down to what you mods want to deal with. Hats off to any of you willing to do that, but if I were in those shoes I wouldn't be a mod much longer that's for sure.

i king of agree that podium is like the basement or cess pool of Packers huddle. There is plenty of room on the main floor, and no one has to go down there. The cess should never reach the main floor. That should be prevented at all cost. But if you want to go jump in the huddles basement and battle it out over politics, i see no harm in it. Podium was around at the old site, i never posted in it, and it never affected my experience on the main page at all.

The problem is that we can say it shouldn't spill over into the main forum, but it does, and has, regularly. It is mostly in how posters react to other posters in the main forum due to their exchanges in the Podium. There is some spill over in topic, but that isn't the main offense. It ain't does not build community when left as a topic free for all.

[salmar80]

Behind the scenes, the Mod team on the old and new forums was veeeeery quick and decisive about stomping ANY, even joking, attempts at bringing politics onto the football forum. It didn't happen often, but it did try to rear it's ugly head from time to time.

Stopping personal animosity forming from too-heated political talk was the hard part, and something we'd love to avoid to the max this time around. There's a difference between having different viewpoints and being enemies. The latter is the part that can carry over to football side.

In any case, a non-moderated political forum on this here site is not an option we'd even entertain.

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One thing worth saying aloud with option 1, is that it's inevitably gonna be a balancing act with moderation. Whether it's allowing almost no politics, just the most civil of political conversation, all politics but with very strict enforcement of JustJeff's rules, or whatever, there WILL be times we are "too soft" or "too tough" on posts and posters, depending on your viewpoint and circumstance.

While locking in as clear guidelines as we can write might help that some, y'all would have to be fine with "We will NOT guarantee equal treatment; we WILL guarantee an attempt at fair treatment".

[TheGreenMan]

Bring back the Podium with Yoop and Pckfn as your mods.



This is how I've always envisioned the Podium.

[texas]

Bring back the Podium with Yoop and Pckfn as your mods.

[Pckfn23]

I can't even wrap my head around how that would go...

[texas]

I'd like a podium again, but I think everyone already knows that. Even if there is some spillover, there's honestly way better political discussion here than anywhere I know off the top of my head.

Also, at this point, any personal stances posters have towards each other based on the Podium are already known, so I don't know that they'll just go away if we don't have a podium. I.e. everyone already knows who's a lib and who's rational ( ) so that will still color things in the main forum to those who care

[Captain_Ben]

I think a mix between 1 and 2. I think it can go into the Cheesehead Chatter sub-forum, too. In the PN.net, the main forum got a lot of traffic, the Podium got quite a bit, and everything else got next to nothing. I don't think having some politics in the Chatter forum is/would be bad, and it gives other topics (like, what are you watching) traffic. I also think there should be a place for non-football specific things to be discussed, especially because there is huge portion of the year where there is not a lot going on football-wise.

I don't think the Wild West is helpful, whether a separate site or not. There should be some moderating but only if it gets nasty. So far in Chatter I don't think it has gotten out of hand. People just need to be more civil; myself included at times. And not get baited. I don't frequent the forum as much as in the past, partly due to life happening and other obligations. I have made a conscious attempt to not interact in the Podium and Chatter with those who I know are just looking for an argument.

I really like the idea of a 1 and 2 combo.

On a note unrelated to Wally's post, I'll add that I disagree with the notion that there is never any productive discussion in the political threads. Sure there tends to be more personal attacks and non-productive conversation in comparison to the Packer subforum, but over the years the opinions expressed in the Podium have been more enlightening and informative for me personally than one might expect. This was one of my go-to places to inform myself about opposing viewpoints because 1) Most of the posters with views representing the "opposition" are pretty well-read and informative and 2) I'd rather read one of their posts than sit through a segment of MSNBC or CNN. I mean that as a compliment BTW, even though there is a long list of things I'd rather do.

Anyway, I trust whatever decision is made, it will work out in the end.