The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except

[lupedafiasco]

Gotta agree with yoop here, tbh. Pettine's hiring has not turned this defense around such that, in retrospect, one can really be like "Wow, Dom sure held back this unit." To the extent the D was an issue (and the unit really wasn't all that bad in the past couple season), it was always more of a talent thing, and that falls on TT, not coaching.

Don’t talk sense to these people. They don’t want to hear their darling GM was hot doo doo.

[go pak go]

Gotta agree with yoop here, tbh. Pettine's hiring has not turned this defense around such that, in retrospect, one can really be like "Wow, Dom sure held back this unit." To the extent the D was an issue (and the unit really wasn't all that bad in the past couple season), it was always more of a talent thing, and that falls on TT, not coaching.

Don’t talk sense to these people. They don’t want to hear their darling GM was hot doo doo.

I don't think many will disagree about this after 2014. I will absolutely defend the man from 2005 - 2014.

I really don't think this is even a thing anymore.

[Carl Gerbschmidt]

I wanted Mike fired because he did not fire Dom.

[Labrev]

Gotta agree with yoop here, tbh. Pettine's hiring has not turned this defense around such that, in retrospect, one can really be like "Wow, Dom sure held back this unit." To the extent the D was an issue (and the unit really wasn't all that bad in the past couple season), it was always more of a talent thing, and that falls on TT, not coaching.

Don’t talk sense to these people. They don’t want to hear their darling GM was hot doo doo.

To the extent that "these people" <sic> do not want to hear anything, it's not that they can't accept criticism of TT. They may not agree with your stance, but they are generally open to criticizing him. I didn't say TT was "hot doo doo" <sic> or anything to that effect, either, just that he did not restock the cupboard well enough on D.

With that being said, there definitely is one thing that nobody wanted to hear at that time, and that was any defense of Capers or suggestion that firing him was not a significant part of the solution. Their stance on Dom resembled yours on TT.

[Yoop]

Gotta agree with yoop here, tbh. Pettine's hiring has not turned this defense around such that, in retrospect, one can really be like "Wow, Dom sure held back this unit." To the extent the D was an issue (and the unit really wasn't all that bad in the past couple season), it was always more of a talent thing, and that falls on TT, not coaching.

Don’t talk sense to these people. They don’t want to hear their darling GM was hot doo doo.

I don't think many will disagree about this after 2014. I will absolutely defend the man from 2005 - 2014.

I really don't think this is even a thing anymore.

Nick Collins was a key factor in the SB win, some would say (me) that FS is the QB of the defense and among the top 4 starters on a defense, yet Theo was never ever able to replace him, tall order for any GM, still HHCD was the best and it took 5 years, so I can't really defend him on that count, imho the biggest issue Capers had to deal with was player availability, the guy lost whole position groups to injury, the last two seasons the CB group was a mash unit, no DC can over come that, and if it happens to Pettine we'll see him struggle as well, it was always a talent issue formost.

4 new starters last year in a 2 year old scheme, plus Gary, and now this year a new ILB, sure talent has improved tremendously, however no nfl defense is easy to comprehend, we think it's easier then it is because these athletes tend to make it look that way when they get stuff right, which they do most of the time, it's the fails we fans remember the most, and we usually don't even pick up on the simple stuff they get right almost always that set up the successful plays, like a key block, or a tell on a run play a defender picks up that ends up being a negative play for the opposing offense.

imho what Pettine was able to do last year with all those personal changes the 2nd year into the job was very good, and I expect another leap if we can stay as or near as healthy.

[go pak go]

^^^

Every conversation circles back to 2014 right? If 2014 went the way we thought it should have went, it would have cleansed all the sins we complain about today. Capers would be highly viewed because he put together 2 seasons of really a top NFL defense to get us a championship. I mean his defense to close the season was phenominal.

Thompson would be viewed great for putting together that last great roster and signing Peppers to get us over the top.

MM would be viewed great for having 2 rings. Rodgers the same.

But it didn't. So all we can do now is complain. Hand wring. Make player comparisons to a famous Chinese food. And say "I was the first who noticed TT sucked" (even though I was actually wrong on my real first attempt of saying this in spring 2007 but I am counting on everyone forgetting that by now)

[Yoop]

^^^

Every conversation circles back to 2014 right? If 2014 went the way we thought it should have went, it would have cleansed all the sins we complain about today. Capers would be highly viewed because he put together 2 seasons of really a top NFL defense to get us a championship. I mean his defense to close the season was phenominal.

Thompson would be viewed great for putting together that last great roster and signing Peppers to get us over the top.

MM would be viewed great for having 2 rings. Rodgers the same.

But it didn't. So all we can do now is complain. Hand wring. Make player comparisons to a famous Chinese food. And say "I was the first who noticed TT sucked" (even though I was actually wrong on my real first attempt of saying this in spring 2007 but I am counting on everyone forgetting that by now)

yep it was all Bosticks fault, or whatever that boneheaded me firsts name was we all read about football, and from that we should know that football is always evolving, as soon as the DC's figure out how to curtail the successes of the current offensive schemes then offenses are changing to the next round of disguising there intentions, and when a DC can't keep up with these changes, a new guy is brought in, never mind the limited talent would have held back any cord, thats why when a DC is switched out along with the new guy, the GM also brings in key players to give the DC a shot at success, never mind that those players brought in would have also helped the prior DC as well, course by that time some of the players have quit on the coach and his schemes, so to get them to buy back in ya have to bring in a new coach to gain back that solidarity, never had a problem getting rid of Caper, my problem was the reason we had to.

[TheSkeptic]

Gotta agree with yoop here, tbh. Pettine's hiring has not turned this defense around such that, in retrospect, one can really be like "Wow, Dom sure held back this unit." To the extent the D was an issue (and the unit really wasn't all that bad in the past couple season), it was always more of a talent thing, and that falls on TT, not coaching.

If you go back and watch the games where the D did not perform well in the last 2 seasons, what you should see is that the D wasn't the only problem. What you are going to see is far too many 3-an-outs by the O. Far too many passes deliberately thrown out of bounds by AR, far too many low % deep passes. And far too many drops by Geronimo and Graham. Every D is going to give up a long drive or 2 and a score. But then to have to come back onto the field after 3 minutes and have the opposing team already at midfield is a mental and physical killer.

The best thing the Packers could do for their D is to pick up a 1st down in situations like that.

[Labrev]

Gotta agree with yoop here, tbh. Pettine's hiring has not turned this defense around such that, in retrospect, one can really be like "Wow, Dom sure held back this unit." To the extent the D was an issue (and the unit really wasn't all that bad in the past couple season), it was always more of a talent thing, and that falls on TT, not coaching.

If you go back and watch the games where the D did not perform well in the last 2 seasons, what you should see is that the D wasn't the only problem. What you are going to see is far too many 3-an-outs by the O. Far too many passes deliberately thrown out of bounds by AR, far too many low % deep passes. And far too many drops by Geronimo and Graham. Every D is going to give up a long drive or 2 and a score. But then to have to come back onto the field after 3 minutes and have the opposing team already at midfield is a mental and physical killer.

The best thing the Packers could do for their D is to pick up a 1st down in situations like that.

I said the exact same thing: offense and defense feed off of each other, the defense is going to eventually crack if the O can't get off the field.

And yeah, people threw that one back in my face. I vividly remember it. It was like: "Oh, you think being on the field too long tires out the defense while giving the opposing team more opportunities to eventually score?? WHAT AN IDIOT!! Capers is the problem, end of discussion!!!!"

There is a whole post-game thread at the old site where I bitch about it lol, but... better not to share. I was very zealous.

[Crazylegs Starks]

I hope someday we get a tell-all book from Capers. Like did he think Damarious Randall was a corner or a safety? Did he ever lobby the front office to keep Micah Hyde? What about Cullen Jenkins? Why does he think the 2011 defense regressed so badly?

[lupedafiasco]

If I ever see Brandon $%&# in the streets I’m gonna snatch his teeth. I hate that dude.

[go pak go]

Gotta agree with yoop here, tbh. Pettine's hiring has not turned this defense around such that, in retrospect, one can really be like "Wow, Dom sure held back this unit." To the extent the D was an issue (and the unit really wasn't all that bad in the past couple season), it was always more of a talent thing, and that falls on TT, not coaching.

If you go back and watch the games where the D did not perform well in the last 2 seasons, what you should see is that the D wasn't the only problem. What you are going to see is far too many 3-an-outs by the O. Far too many passes deliberately thrown out of bounds by AR, far too many low % deep passes. And far too many drops by Geronimo and Graham. Every D is going to give up a long drive or 2 and a score. But then to have to come back onto the field after 3 minutes and have the opposing team already at midfield is a mental and physical killer.

The best thing the Packers could do for their D is to pick up a 1st down in situations like that.

I said the exact same thing: offense and defense feed off of each other, the defense is going to eventually crack if the O can't get off the field.

And yeah, people threw that one back in my face. I vividly remember it. It was like: "Oh, you think being on the field too long tires out the defense while giving the opposing team more opportunities to eventually score?? WHAT AN IDIOT!! Capers is the problem, end of discussion!!!!"

There is a whole post-game thread at the old site where I bitch about it lol, but... better not to share. I was very zealous.

What I think was the most impressive fact of our defense last year is how our offense put our defense on the field in compromising positions so many times (like starting at the 40 yardline or worse) and the D would not allow a score.

Our defense was remarkable when put in tough situations.

[Yoop]

I hope someday we get a tell-all book from Capers. Like did he think Damarious Randall was a corner or a safety? Did he ever lobby the front office to keep Micah Hyde? What about Cullen Jenkins? Why does he think the 2011 defense regressed so badly?

come on now, why this has to be continually explained doesn't make sense, Ted buys the grocery's, Capers only connection to that is that he has to make the defense work, the year Randall was drafted we didn't even have a starter caliber CB, Randall became one, and we even drafted another, what choice did Capers have but to have him play CB? and he ended up as the 5th best CB drafted that year according to some stats that I remember, that he eventually became a better safety then corner is of no consequince whatsoever, when Ted took him almost everyone, including other football people said he was the next best DB in that class, I get so tired of this spilt milk mantra.

same with Hyde, Hayward, Jenkins etc, Capers or any coach has very little control over who stays and goes, it's either about the money, or the player simply did nor produce well enough to keep, that they do better elsewhere has more to do with that other team and there schemes then they did in the schemes Capers used, and for anyone to think a cord is going to change his schemes because of one or two players not fitting, well you just have not been paying attention, it rarely ever happens, typically they end up like Mike McCarthy and get to try on another team, or there demoted and end up a position coach, or there old and just retire as I think Capers did.

[Crazylegs Starks]

come on now, why this has to be continually explained doesn't make sense, Ted buys the grocery's, Capers only connection to that is that he has to make the defense work, the year Randall was drafted we didn't even have a starter caliber CB, Randall became one, and we even drafted another, what choice did Capers have but to have him play CB? and he ended up as the 5th best CB drafted that year according to some stats that I remember, that he eventually became a better safety then corner is of no consequince whatsoever, when Ted took him almost everyone, including other football people said he was the next best DB in that class, I get so tired of this spilt milk mantra.

same with Hyde, Hayward, Jenkins etc, Capers or any coach has very little control over who stays and goes, it's either about the money, or the player simply did nor produce well enough to keep, that they do better elsewhere has more to do with that other team and there schemes then they did in the schemes Capers used, and for anyone to think a cord is going to change his schemes because of one or two players not fitting, well you just have not been paying attention, it rarely ever happens, typically they end up like Mike McCarthy and get to try on another team, or there demoted and end up a position coach, or there old and just retire as I think Capers did.

Geez, Yoop. All I want to know is what Capers' opinion was of various player decisions. Don't twist my post into a Capers vs. TT thing.

P.S. Most GMs actually talk to their coaches about player acquisition so the idea that Capers is just handed the players and told to make it work is BS. Go read the book Collision Low Crossers if you don't believe me. Didn't Pettine (he's in the book) say he talked with Gute about free agent OLBs last offseason?

[Yoop]

come on now, why this has to be continually explained doesn't make sense, Ted buys the grocery's, Capers only connection to that is that he has to make the defense work, the year Randall was drafted we didn't even have a starter caliber CB, Randall became one, and we even drafted another, what choice did Capers have but to have him play CB? and he ended up as the 5th best CB drafted that year according to some stats that I remember, that he eventually became a better safety then corner is of no consequince whatsoever, when Ted took him almost everyone, including other football people said he was the next best DB in that class, I get so tired of this spilt milk mantra.

same with Hyde, Hayward, Jenkins etc, Capers or any coach has very little control over who stays and goes, it's either about the money, or the player simply did nor produce well enough to keep, that they do better elsewhere has more to do with that other team and there schemes then they did in the schemes Capers used, and for anyone to think a cord is going to change his schemes because of one or two players not fitting, well you just have not been paying attention, it rarely ever happens, typically they end up like Mike McCarthy and get to try on another team, or there demoted and end up a position coach, or there old and just retire as I think Capers did.

Geez, Yoop. All I want to know is what Capers' opinion was of various player decisions. Don't twist my post into a Capers vs. TT thing.

P.S. Most GMs actually talk to their coaches about player acquisition so the idea that Capers is just handed the players and told to make it work is BS. Go read the book Collision Low Crossers if you don't believe me. Didn't Pettine (he's in the book) say he talked with Gute about free agent OLBs last offseason?

Sorry Starks, I apologize for being so short fused, we'll never get the answer to some of these questions, it's not as though Capers would ever say anything bad about anyone, at least it's never been his style before, I think what upsets me (not directed at you) is that Capers had to say anything to Ted about any of these personal decisions, everyone wanted to keep Jenkins, and he was the only real starter of these 3 with Hyde and Hayward, and all 3 wanted substantial raises, either your play as was the case with Jenkins warrants that decision to keep him or them, or it don't, Ted didn't need input from Capers about any of this, Jenkins wanted far more then Ted would pay, and the other two weren't even starters, but wanted to be paid as if they where, that they deserved that money in another scheme can't be considered much here, that was only made clear after they left, we had Burny and Dix, why pay Hyde starter money, and Hayward for whatever reason never impressed the coaches enough to get a starter gig, Ted was still coherant enough to know that, anyway thats what I should have said earlier, yes I understand that GM's do confide with coaches when making personal decisions, but these decisions where mostly money oriented imo.

and teams let go of talent that didn't evolve all the time that do better elsewhere, I thought all the complaining when that went down was simply another excuse to hate on Capers.

[go pak go]

why pay Hyde starter money, and Hayward for whatever reason never impressed the coaches enough to get a starter gig, Ted was still coherant enough to know that, anyway thats what I should have said earlier, yes I understand that GM's do confide with coaches when making personal decisions, but these decisions where mostly money oriented imo.

and teams let go of talent that didn't evolve all the time that do better elsewhere, I thought all the complaining when that went down was simply another excuse to hate on Capers.

So it's not Capers or the coaches fault of player personnel decisions because they don't buy the groceries.
But it's not TT's fault because the players he didn't resign weren't viewed as starting caliber by the coaches?

hmmmmmmmmm.

I mean I get sometimes FAs do better elsewhere. But you also have to admit it sucks when it happens. I mean the Ravens gotta kicking themselves right now wondering what went wrong with Z Smith. Also just shows how many other variables matter with this stuff. Sometimes the scheme, situation, complimentary teammates just make that perfect match.

[lupedafiasco]

why pay Hyde starter money, and Hayward for whatever reason never impressed the coaches enough to get a starter gig, Ted was still coherant enough to know that, anyway thats what I should have said earlier, yes I understand that GM's do confide with coaches when making personal decisions, but these decisions where mostly money oriented imo.

and teams let go of talent that didn't evolve all the time that do better elsewhere, I thought all the complaining when that went down was simply another excuse to hate on Capers.

So it's not Capers or the coaches fault of player personnel decisions because they don't buy the groceries.
But it's not TT's fault because the players he didn't resign weren't viewed as starting caliber by the coaches?

hmmmmmmmmm.

I mean I get sometimes FAs do better elsewhere. But you also have to admit it sucks when it happens. I mean the Ravens gotta kicking themselves right now wondering what went wrong with Z Smith. Also just shows how many other variables matter with this stuff. Sometimes the scheme, situation, complimentary teammates just make that perfect match.

At the time the Packers had long term deals on Shields and Williams. The minute TT drafted Randall and Rollins, Hawyward was gone. It would have been a waste of resources to pay Hayward even if he did get peanuts from the Chargers.

They couldn’t really keep Hyde either when they already had a long term deal on Burnett and had just drafted HHCD with their first pick. It really was just TT wasting resources on positions we didn’t need and getting bad ones at that.

[Pckfn23]

A LOT of misinformation revisionist history in this thread that we have discussed ad nauseum, but one that is new is that Tramon Williams was in the middle of a long term deal. Thus, his contract was a reason we could not sign Hayward. Williams went to the Browns in 2015. Hayward went to the the Chargers in 2016. Williams had nothing to do with Hayward leaving.

The one continuous assertion that coaches have no say in player acquisition is plain astounding in it's persistence and inaccuracy.

[Yoop]

A LOT of misinformation revisionist history in this thread that we have discussed ad nauseum, but one that is new is that Tramon Williams was in the middle of a long term deal. Thus, his contract was a reason we could not sign Hayward. Williams went to the Browns in 2015. Hayward went to the the Chargers in 2016. Williams had nothing to do with Hayward leaving.

The one continuous assertion that coaches have no say in player acquisition is plain astounding in it's persistence and inaccuracy.

Hayward had 4 years to win a boundry CB position and never did, no one knows why Ted didn't keep him, but it sure as hell wasn't because Capers held him back, the only constant in all this is that your convinced otherwise and have always ragged on Capers, both Hayward and Hyde had plenty of oppertunity to beat others out to get a extension, but couldn't.
why would Capers press to keep them? he had no ammo, there play while good wasn't good enough for starter contracts, this isn't any more complicated then that, whether you want it to be or not.

[Pckfn23]

None of that was even discussed in my post. This is an argument with ghosts.