Health Thread

[Cdragon]

After doing this for almost 6 months and watching various talking heads and figuring out who’s knows what they are talking about. Who’s biased, who’s right for the wrong reasons and who is just right. And what works for me. This is my take.

DrJ, I think you’ve got starvation wrong. The body has basically three modes. You eat and insulin puts you into fat storage mode. Fat storage mode stops all fat burning. Insulin finishes its job, and you keep burning glucose that is in the blood and stored in the liver. Glucose runs low and the body will start to turn excess protein into glucose but that is energy inefficient. Finally, you get to fat burning or starvation mode.

But when you get to starvation, you body will actually ramp up the metabolism. It wants to give you the energy to get your ass up and take down some wild animal and make a sandwich. It doesn’t break down muscle because you need that to take down your sandwich animal. You are using up the fat you’ve stored over the years until you get that sandwich so you’re burning just as much energy as you’d normally be eating and probably more. So on keto your metabolism stays about the same or gets higher.

The problem with modern life is too many people never get out of the insulin phase. You are constantly hungry you eat all the time and you never leave the fat storage mode. If you are on a diet you are too often in fat storage mode while in a caloric deficit. There is no fat burning going on to make up the deficit. Your body slows down your metabolism because you are in that energy deficit. That is the difference between true starvation mode and this deficit mode that a diet puts you in. So on Keto you have all the energy you need as long as you have fat.

Getting out of the insulin phase and into the fat burning phase is the actual goal. Fat and low carb fiber barely trigger insulin. Protein gives you a moderate spike. And carbs really spikes it. A low carb or keto diet helps you get into fat burning quicker. Protein, low carb fiber, and fat are satisfying so you naturally eat less calories. I don’t bother counting calories at all.

Intermittent fasting is a huge tool in getting into fat burning mode. You don’t even need to have a keto diet for it to work. Cutting down your eating window gets you into fat burning naturally. When you start fat burning your body is taking the fat and turning it ketones. Many people think the body works best on ketones. But ketones have too much energy. They can damage the mitochondria, the energy factory in the cells. The mitochondria actually dumps 30% of the energy from ketones out as waste heat. In order to save themselves from burning out the mitochondria start to replicate themselves so they can split the load across a bunch of mitochondria. This is the fat adaption stage. Your body is protecting itself by spreading the energy load.

Intermittent fasting, cutting your eating window starts a ton of benefits. Around 16 hrs you start to create a lot of stem cells, and human growth hormones. Around 18 hrs you start kicking autophagy into high gear. Your body starts breaking down the old, dead, or corrupted cells that don’t have a purpose. It goes after cancer cells, dormant virus cells. Once you get rid of the bad you can rebuild with the stem cells and HGH. The longer you fast, the more tear down and repair can happen.

Forget the cheat days and try of month of low carb, and tightening your eating window. I think you’d have better results. If you occasionally have a big carb meal don’t sweat it because time between that and your next meal will take care of it. Just don’t do it too often.

https://www.youtube.com/c/drjasonfung1 is great on fasting.

[Waldo]

If you are on a diet you are too often in fat storage mode while in a caloric deficit. There is no fat burning going on to make up the deficit. Your body slows down your metabolism because you are in that energy deficit. That is the difference between true starvation mode and this deficit mode that a diet puts you in.

In the form most people understand starvation mode and the metabolic damage concept is 100% total and complete heath and fitness talking head nonsense. There is NO real research that actually backs up the existence of it.

Do any of you remember Layne Norton?

About 10 years ago, people started putting together all of the science backed bodybuilding diet concepts into single framework that became known as IIFYM, If It Fits Your Macros, sort of the antithesis of the Paleo nonsense sweeping the nation. There were a few diet gurus that became known as the intellectual leaders, even though they really didn't get along, and none of them take credit for it (Lyle McDonald, Layne Norton, Stuart Phillips). These guys are known for super hardcore science (Stuart and Layne are pHD's in protein chemistry).

Well Layne Norton started going hardcore into this metabolic damage concept, but it was only backed by some thin and really questionable research. Lyle and Layne really started to hate each other over it and both were pretty hardcore mud slingers. Well over time more and more research came out on the topic showing that its not a thing and people just weren't having luck with what Layne was selling. Then some went back to the OG research data of the paper that sparked the science backed metabolic damage tangent and found horrid errors, the study has been rescinded I believe. At this point the concept has been totally discredited and even Layne himself admits its not a thing anymore (he has pretty much disappeared too).

But because the health and fitness industry is a lot like religion, once a concept takes root its not going anywhere for a long time (that and its not particularly intellectual); people believing in metabolic damage will live on for decades in lore.

That said our bodies can make a small shift to conserve some calories to drop the deficit starting point; NEAT (figeting type movements) can decrease and our bodies will try to conserve heat (bundle up!), but both of these are semi-conscious; you can consciously are preserve that little bit of hourly calorie burn by not putting on a sweater.

There is a real starvation mode where the body throttles metabolism pretty good, but its an extreme state science really doesn't study because it only applies to those with severe eating disorders, though bodybuilders can get close when getting freaky lean (the main sign of being close is that your dik doesn't work anymore).

[Waldo]

To me (and most researchers) the absolute best thing you can do for your heath is to strength train regularly. The gov't recommends 30 minutes 3x a week minimum for optimum health. When it comes to effort, that's where the long term bang for the buck is.

When you strength train, you better preserve lean mass (not bodyfat) as you lose weight.
When you strength train, you gain additional lean mass when you gain weight
Balance and function is highly derived from muscle strength
Muscles look good
Overall quality of life is pretty drastically improved by strength training
Strength training burns A LOT of calories (when it comes to calorie burn, slow steady state cardio = prius on a freeway, strength training = hummer in the city), fairly comparable to slow steady state cardio in the same timescale

LIS I've gone through 3 distinctly different periods with it in the last 11 years

For the first 5 years I strength trained I did calisthenics at home. Mostly it was borne from necessity; I could not afford a gym membership and I didn't have space for any sort of weights at home even if I could afford it. I did have a few DB's from when I was in college (15's, 25's), and grabbed another pair (35's), but shifted away from DB's as I got better at calisthenics. For the most part my gym was a small little bench, a wall, a some foam times for the floor, and a doorway pullup bar.

By calisthenics I don't mean I was doing pushups for reps, I was doing increasing esoteric deleveraged moves and holds. Coolest thing I could do was bar muscle ups in playgrounds (kinda like a super pullup, you start in a hang, end at the top of a bar dip above the bar) and dragon flags (tho I couldn't do the stripper pole variant). For legs I did lots and lots of pistol squats, weighted with DB's when they got too easy.

The strongest I've ever been at overhead pressing and pulling, and in my core was in this calisthenics period.

When I moved to a new house though my space was much worse (low ceilings in basement, no more handstand pushups) and the doorway terrible for a pullup bar. I made do for a while but then we moved into a new office at work and it had a gym. With weights.

So for a few years I lifted on my lunch break at work. I used a powerbuilder philosophy. The first year year went great. Then I started skipping days here and there for whatever reason (usually work related) so progress ground to a halt. About a year in is the strongest I ever got with weights. I still at least showed up here and there though until the government shutdown of '19, which is when I lost access to the gym for a few months.

I realized it was a problem for my strength training to be tied to work like that, so I used my shutdown backpay to buy a power rack, some weights, and rubber floor to move strength training back home so that I could get on a reliable schedule. This time only the first few months went great, then languished for a couple years. A couple injuries sapped any sort of effective work for a while, then effort. Plus my gym was pretty subpar, still lacking the ability to do many movements. But again though, I at least showed up and put forth that level of effort.

I got a new burst of motivation these past holidays after successfully losing the extra tire that had been building since I started skipping days in the work gym and spent some pretty good bank on the home gym, fixing its weakness. Finally getting close to another strength peak; early this summer I think I'll start beating my PR's set back in 2017. About ready to start putting 225 on the bench, just in time for draft season.

My wife has been strength training too for a long time. She's pretty pumped about the upgraded gym too.

My starting point back in 2011 (in my mid 30's) when I started losing weight was super weak and small (fat and wimpy is a bad combo), just as I was as a kid (gaining weight, fat or muscle, was a ok, which I how I got fat), I've gained 25-30 lbs of muscle mass since then (almost all of if before 2017... also before I turned 40), but I'm by no means big nowadays. At least I can pass as someone who works out though.

[wallyuwl]

Not much more important to health than sleep. We have had bad luck with beds the last decade and rarely get a pain free good nights sleep. So we just bought a Sleep Number i8. Delivery on the 5th. Hope it is worth it.

[Captain_Ben]

Not much more important to health than sleep. We have had bad luck with beds the last decade and rarely get a pain free good nights sleep. So we just bought a Sleep Number i8. Delivery on the 5th. Hope it is worth it.

Nice. Let us know how much improvement you see. I'm always looking for ways to improve my sleep. Currently trying to find a good stand alone AC unit for the bedroom. I need something that can reallllly keep the room cold, especially during summer months.

[NCF]

Not much more important to health than sleep. We have had bad luck with beds the last decade and rarely get a pain free good nights sleep. So we just bought a Sleep Number i8. Delivery on the 5th. Hope it is worth it.

I will be following your review. I hate every bed I have ever slept on. None of them are what I need and I often wake up in pain, too.

[BF004]

We switched to the softest memory foam beds we can find our last two, and I’ve loved both more than any other bed.

Our first one was a generic we got in like 2009, held up really well tbh when they were still new. Did get a soft topper for it that helped more.

But when we moved to GB, we splurged for a king size. It was a pricier tempur-pedic, but we’ve loved that one too. I always used to have my arm fall asleep while sleeping on my side, but I never do on this. I have back issues too. And this bed honesty seems to have improved my issues the past ~3-4 years.

I will never buy another metal coil.

[wallyuwl]

Not much more important to health than sleep. We have had bad luck with beds the last decade and rarely get a pain free good nights sleep. So we just bought a Sleep Number i8. Delivery on the 5th. Hope it is worth it.

Nice. Let us know how much improvement you see. I'm always looking for ways to improve my sleep. Currently trying to find a good stand alone AC unit for the bedroom. I need something that can reallllly keep the room cold, especially during summer months.

If you are looking for a window unit, find an old one on Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist that still works. Old Freon is good Freon as long as the unit doesn't leak. Otherwise they have units like this (link below) that usually QVC and HSN have as their special value of the day sometime in May, often around Memorial Day, for a really good price. Best Buy also will probably start to have comparable units for a good price as one of their Deals of the Day starting pretty soon (you can sign up to receive their Deals of the Day by email).

https://www.qvc.com/DeLonghi-500-11%2C5 ... ml?sc=SRCH

[Captain_Ben]

Not much more important to health than sleep. We have had bad luck with beds the last decade and rarely get a pain free good nights sleep. So we just bought a Sleep Number i8. Delivery on the 5th. Hope it is worth it.

Nice. Let us know how much improvement you see. I'm always looking for ways to improve my sleep. Currently trying to find a good stand alone AC unit for the bedroom. I need something that can reallllly keep the room cold, especially during summer months.

If you are looking for a window unit, find an old one on Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist that still works. Old Freon is good Freon as long as the unit doesn't leak. Otherwise they have units like this (link below) that usually QVC and HSN have as their special value of the day sometime in May, often around Memorial Day, for a really good price. Best Buy also will probably start to have comparable units for a good price as one of their Deals of the Day starting pretty soon (you can sign up to receive their Deals of the Day by email).

https://www.qvc.com/DeLonghi-500-11%2C5 ... ml?sc=SRCH

Thanks Wally. Watched the video for the DeLonghi unit in your link. Think I might roll with that. I will need to order an adjustable length sliding door kit, as my bedroom has a sliding door and not any windows. I have central AC but it doesn't cool the bedrooms as well as it does the rest of the place. If this works out, I'm hoping I'll be able to save some money on electricity by not having to run the AC all night.

[APB]

Nice. Let us know how much improvement you see. I'm always looking for ways to improve my sleep. Currently trying to find a good stand alone AC unit for the bedroom. I need something that can reallllly keep the room cold, especially during summer months.

If you are looking for a window unit, find an old one on Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist that still works. Old Freon is good Freon as long as the unit doesn't leak. Otherwise they have units like this (link below) that usually QVC and HSN have as their special value of the day sometime in May, often around Memorial Day, for a really good price. Best Buy also will probably start to have comparable units for a good price as one of their Deals of the Day starting pretty soon (you can sign up to receive their Deals of the Day by email).

https://www.qvc.com/DeLonghi-500-11%2C5 ... ml?sc=SRCH

Thanks Wally. Watched the video for the DeLonghi unit in your link. Think I might roll with that. I will need to order an adjustable length sliding door kit, as my bedroom has a sliding door and not any windows. I have central AC but it doesn't cool the bedrooms as well as it does the rest of the place. If this works out, I'm hoping I'll be able to save some money on electricity by not having to run the AC all night.

We purchased this GE Model on sale last year when we lost power and ran it in the bedroom off the generator feed. We liked the localized cool bedroom temps and sleep noise it produces so much we now run it year-round in AC or just fan mode in winter months. We turn it on about 15 min before going to bed and it works like a champ. It cools the room down considerably and allows us to keep the house AC set to reasonable levels at night while we sleep in the cool of the bedroom. Sleep has been greatly improved since installing it.

[Waldo]

We went back to the office for the first time since the start of the pandemic this week. Just one day a week for now and probably forever (definitely more effective at home). Was interesting to see everyone that's been WFH the last 2 years and a month. There were about 50-75 at the office, about 1/3 of the full group. Although everyone had weight stories and most gained early, just about everyone had lost some weight and were slimmer than at the start of the pandemic. Some had lost A LOT. I was not alone in having dropped some bank on the home gym. It was really good to see what a net positive this has become on many people's health.

I'm down about 20 lbs since the start of the pandemic, maybe 25 lbs of fat loss. In the final phase of plan abs, where I'm using an undulating diet to pass through the hormone fight, have about 5 lbs of fat (1-1.5" on the waist) to go until I should have the full 6 (been there before, know the measurements). Break this week. Should be close to my goal by Memorial Day.

[Pckfn23]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/20/heal ... diets.html

[Cdragon]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/20/heal ... diets.html

Interesting but real life is different from a tightly controlled study. When you put people back into the wild and allow them to eat what they want, when they want, they'll eat too much. Studies have shown that people doing intermittent fasting eat less calories naturally. I've gone from 280 down to 200 in 6 months doing keto and intermittent fasting. This is all without calorie counting or any consistent exercise. You don't have the time eat a ton of calories unless you specifically down a lot of carbs. There is a limit to how much you can eat in a one or two meal window. The study doesn't mention what the participants ate so we don't know how satisfied each group was after meals. People who feel they are starving on restricted diets will not stick to them given the choice. They will cheat big time. Otherwise the vast majority of people who've counted calories would be thin as a rail and we know they are not.

Also if the diet only focused on total calories and not quality of the food their metabolic changes could be very similar. Eating high inflammatory foods cooked with bad oils would ruin both groups. I eat protein, fat, and fiber rich vegetables. I try to eat at least one clean meal a day. Cooked in avocado oil, grass fed and finished beef, pasture raised eggs, some organic vegetables depending if they are on the dirty dozen or not. I don't get hungry very often. A good steak will satiate you pretty quickly. And on the rare occasions I do get really hungry outside the window, and the window opens and closes depending on the day, I'll eat something. Over the long haul it doesn't make or break you. But you feel satisfied so you don't overeat.

The study also doesn't talk about benefits of fasting like increase in production of Human Growth Hormones, Stem cells, and Autophagy. By all rights, at 62 years old after losing 80lbs, I should have enough skin hanging on my body to make a tent, but I don't. My skin is as tight to my body as it was 6 months ago. I'd say it is more elastic now than 6 months ago. Because at 18 hours or so of fasting my body really starts the demolition and rehab of old unnecessary and damaged tissue. There is plenty of protein in that mix so I have not lost any muscle mass. Fasting 19 - 20 hrs or beyond is allowing me to rebuild myself.

I'm watching Dr. Jason Fung a Nephrologist and Dr. Paul Mason a Cardiologist on Youtube. They are treating insulin resistant, pre-diabetic, and diabetic patients with low carb, time restricted diets and reversing the patients metabolic syndrome inside of months. They are treating real people. I found them after I started this and they are just confirming what I've gone through.

This week I've just started walking 40 minutes a day and I'll be working out in the future to some add some more muscle. In the last week or so I've hit on the Kneesovertoesguy on Youtube. Looks interesting. The Pack should get him to bulletproof all our guys knees.

[Pckfn23]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/20/heal ... diets.html

Interesting but real life is different from a tightly controlled study. When you put people back into the wild and allow them to eat what they want, when they want, they'll eat too much. Studies have shown that people doing intermittent fasting eat less calories naturally.

100%. You hit the nail on the head. It's about the calories. This study just insinuates that if the calories are the same it doesn't matter when you eat them.

[NCF]

100%. You hit the nail on the head. It's about the calories. This study just insinuates that if the calories are the same it doesn't matter when you eat them.

I will disagree from my own case study of one. While science may show the physiological response is no different, I think there are major benefits from a psychological standpoint. Even if that is the only benefit, I think it is probably the most critical one when talking about dieting and weight loss.

[Pckfn23]

100%. You hit the nail on the head. It's about the calories. This study just insinuates that if the calories are the same it doesn't matter when you eat them.

I will disagree from my own case study of one. While science may show the physiological response is no different, I think there are major benefits from a psychological standpoint. Even if that is the only benefit, I think it is probably the most critical one when talking about dieting and weight loss.

I don't think you are disagreeing, you are just pointing out a different aspect. The study pointed out the physiological aspect.

Personally my schedule doesn't allow for intermittent fasting both from a logistical and social stand point. What the study points out, is that that is fine as long as I can stay within the calorie count.

[Waldo]

100%. You hit the nail on the head. It's about the calories. This study just insinuates that if the calories are the same it doesn't matter when you eat them.

I will disagree from my own case study of one. While science may show the physiological response is no different, I think there are major benefits from a psychological standpoint. Even if that is the only benefit, I think it is probably the most critical one when talking about dieting and weight loss.

This is true. Many people simply find it easier to cut calories if eating time is severely restricted. I would note the benefit seems to be MUCH stronger for men than women, women seem to struggle with IF much more.

You guys have to be aware that there are 3 completely different zones of dieting, the rules of one are not the same for others.

Obese+ -> This isn't strictly BMI/Scale related but close. Most/all people in this zone have some degree of insulin resistance (usually a lot) and typically can't do much of any high intensity exercise; walking is good enough anyways. Keto diets tend to work well for this group. Weight can be lost extremely fast. Medical diet studies are usually on this group.

Normal -> This group can be obese by bmi standards but usually not by a lot. In this zone weight and insulin resistance are such that high intensity exercise is on the table. A much more varied menu of approaches work than the obese group because of how much better the body is at handling carbs in the normal group. High intensity exercise decreases insulin resistance as does having lower body fat levels. At the leaner end of the normal group, esp when attempting extreme diets, that's where you start to see hormonal defenses. In this zone strength training definitely helps to preserve muscle mass loss when losing, as does a higher protein diet, but the muscle mass loss effect isn't yet that strong.

Lean -> Trying to rock a 6 pack? New set of rules, dieting while lean. This zone basically requires some form of high intensity exercise, usually A LOT, to unlock. If you aren't lifting you aren't rocking a 6 pack unless you're a freaky lean LISS fan (think marathoner). The body also has strong hormonal defenses against starvation so linear dieting is horrible torture that will end in failure; diet breaks and refeeds have to be part of the plan. In this zone you also are running out of easy to mobilize fat, so strategies like fasted LISS help. And you can't really go that fast or the hormones fight back hard. If you aren't strength training and keeping up the protein you're going to lose all your muscles right along with the fat (see anorexics and others with ED's). Low carb/keto diets are basically completely infeasible in this zone. There's a reason you don't see many people other than teen/early 20's boys in this zone, and those that are clearly work out, a lot. Supplement industry and sports supported research is usually on this group.

A lot of people diet from the obese zone into the normal zone, and are on top of the world, and then smack into the lean zone completely unprepared for what happens when your body starts to fight back against starvation, and how to deal with the symptoms.

[Cdragon]

100%. You hit the nail on the head. It's about the calories. This study just insinuates that if the calories are the same it doesn't matter when you eat them.

I will disagree from my own case study of one. While science may show the physiological response is no different, I think there are major benefits from a psychological standpoint. Even if that is the only benefit, I think it is probably the most critical one when talking about dieting and weight loss.

A lot of people diet from the obese zone into the normal zone, and are on top of the world, and then smack into the lean zone completely unprepared for what happens when your body starts to fight back against starvation, and how to deal with the symptoms.

I've been at 200 for 3 weeks and from 220 down I've been thinking about handling the bottom and where the bottom is. According to BMI I'm no longer obese but still overweight. Nobody would look at me and say that. To satisfy their chart I'd have to get down to 181 or less. I'd have no body fat at all but I think I'm fine at 200. I think my limit for a low would be 190. If I add some muscle that changes that a bit. And while I can eat a lot of guacamole to make up for fat that I no longer have to burn I will probably have to add more fat, protein, and some carbs to the equation.

I took my blood pressure before going out to mow and after. I was at 122/77 and 108/66 after. I haven't taken any BP meds for 3 days. I'm trying to get my heart used to increased activity before I really begin to work out.

[Waldo]

Well figuring out where the end is is a real trick, and its really not an end, but rather a change to a different energy intake state.

The absolute ideal:

For every male there exists a formula that can translate height, weight, and waist measurement into a nearly perfect approximation for body fat %. There are a few different formulas out there, which applies more depends on your body and how you measure, however a perfectly tuned custom formula does exist for you if you could calculate it. You can deconstruct this mathematical truth about the male physique though into the point that the tape measure around the waist is a direct measure of body fat mass, you just don't know the zero point or unit conversion. But you can figure these things out.

Realistically there is no zero point (0% body fat = death) and the formulas do start to break down when uber lean, but you can work out at what measurement you will have good visible abs, which sets a good enough zero point (this calculation is wrong and high every time until you walk the walk and adjust it right), and the relationship between the scale and tape when losing bodyfat (easy to match measurement data averages).

Once you have this information, the tape measure becomes the ultimate diet planning and progress tool. There are a number of "zones" as you get leaner, you only really change appearance when shifting zone to zone; once you know the measurements of each zone you it will always be the same in future diets. Most important, this is mostly independent of muscle mass gain and lost. The tape is also not noisy data like the scale is.

For me, 1/4" = 1 lb body fat change almost precisely.

I measure at the smallest part of my waist, abs flexed, with a soft tape that has built in spring return with consistent tension.

36" is where I start to look thin in clothes
34" is where I start seeing the first hints of flexed upper abs, and where muscle details in arms and legs begin to show.
32" is where the outer ab wall and V lines start to show, and abs are visible even unflexed.
31.5" is where the last bits of fat round the belly button disappears
31" is where all abs are clearly visible even unflexed.

The first bits of hormones fighting back happen at 34" when losing from above. 34" is where fat loss begins to make muscles appear larger.

I worked all this out for myself back in the first few years after my initial loss, starting with the calculation of the diet end point. OFC my calculation was high, and I corrected it a few times. Every diet since then the tape works flawless and I can plan my diet to a very detailed degree.

[Realist]

100%. You hit the nail on the head. It's about the calories. This study just insinuates that if the calories are the same it doesn't matter when you eat them.

I will disagree from my own case study of one. While science may show the physiological response is no different, I think there are major benefits from a psychological standpoint. Even if that is the only benefit, I think it is probably the most critical one when talking about dieting and weight loss.

I don't think you are disagreeing, you are just pointing out a different aspect. The study pointed out the physiological aspect.

Personally my schedule doesn't allow for intermittent fasting both from a logistical and social stand point. What the study points out, is that that is fine as long as I can stay within the calorie count.

23 is awesome. Break down his response to NCF's post. If you dont chuckle at the arrogance you dont appreciate good humor. Luv that guy. For real.