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Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 08:33
by Yoop
German_Panzer wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 07:31
Pugger wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 06:43
The main reason why Gute will trade Rodgers away has nothing to do with his play in the post season. It will be a financial reason only. As I said above, Rodgers is the reason why we were the #1 seed this year and why he most likely is the league MVP. Our problem right now is the salary cap.
This game is not played for the salary cap but to win (actually to entertain people and live from the money they pay). If Gute sees Rodgers helping the Packers he want him back and will make the salary cap fit, don't u think?
NO, Pugger was right, Rodgers will go because he is cash strapping this team going forward, Has absolutely nothing to do with his play
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 08:35
by paco
It.Is.Time.
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 08:38
by Yoop
Raptorman wrote: ↑23 Jan 2022 19:13
dsr wrote: ↑23 Jan 2022 18:18
Raptorman wrote: ↑23 Jan 2022 14:23
Brady has had 16, including this year. But I have been told that doesn't matter in the long run. I was told that the QB makes the defense better. But I have to wonder, why does it only pertain to Brady, Montana, and Young? And oh yeah, in SF during Montana/Young years, 15 out of 18 years.
I bet you haven't been told that. I bet you've been told something much less banal by someone who disagreed with you and have twisted it to make yourself sound to be irrefutably right.
But if you have a link ...
Oh, I was told. I'll see if I can find a link, it's been a while. But I have to warn you, it will take you to a Vikings forum.
FWIW, I don't make &%$@ up.
why are you arguing something any simple minded school kid knows, anyone that doesn't know that a successful offense makes the job of a defense easier, should give up football and take up croque
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 09:00
by Acrobat
Another thing I've been thinking a lot about over the last day is Aaron Rodgers' Playoff Clutch gene.
I know it's easy to point out to the Hail Marys and a couple other great moments like Chicago '03/Dallas '06 and other regular season games where he's brought the team down the field to score the winning TD or Field Goal, but in the playoffs, for the most part, it's been a lot different:
2009 Arizona - First play of OT, overthrew Jennings for what would have been a game winning TD
2010 Chicago - We won the game but Rodgers was bad for most of it, and had several opportunities to put the game away and wasn't able to, and ended up putting it on our defense to bail us out.
2010 Super Bowl - With 2 minutes left, had a 3rd and Goal to seal the game, incomplete pass and our defense had to bail us out again.
2011 Giants - Didn't necessarily need him to lead a game winning drive but played down compared to the rest of the year. Overthrew Jennings on the first drive for what would have been a good way to make a statement. Also had a wide open Jennings and had the ball slapped out of his hand.
2014 Seattle - Had the calf injury so gets some forgiveness here, but had several opportunities to blow the game wide open, including a late 4th quarter drive that ended in a Field Goal. Played tentative the whole game and again, did not live up to the MVP play from the season.
2016 Arizona - Even though our defense laid an egg and our WR's weren't 100% healthy, Rodgers was simply outplayed and outmatched by Matt Ryan. 2 weeks later Brady led one of the greatest comebacks in history (for comparison).
2020 Tampa - Rodgers didn't play "bad", but he did miss some throws, had a chance to tie the game late, and couldn't get it done. Disagreed with the Field Goal attempt but Rodgers still failed to cash in 3 downs and goal.
2021 - San Fran - Complete disaster. His worst performance in a playoff game, and could have saved it if he cashed in on several opportunities, could have hit a wide open Lazard late in the 4th quarter to set up a winning field goal.
This post is in no way designed to bash Rodgers and his accomplishments, but when I think about the above 7 examples, I just don't know that Rodgers has what it takes to bring another Championship to Green Bay, especially if our supporting cast will not be as strong in future years. This is why I think I'm ok with rolling the dice with Love (or any other QB that we can draft or pick up in FA) and try to beef up the team around the QB.
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 09:40
by Pugger
German_Panzer wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 07:31
Pugger wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 06:43
The main reason why Gute will trade Rodgers away has nothing to do with his play in the post season. It will be a financial reason only. As I said above, Rodgers is the reason why we were the #1 seed this year and why he most likely is the league MVP. Our problem right now is the salary cap.
This game is not played for the salary cap but to win (actually to entertain people and live from the money they pay). If Gute sees Rodgers helping the Packers he want him back and will make the salary cap fit, don't u think?
You can't win if your HOF QB is gobbling up a huge chuck of your salary cap. He can't do it alone.
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 09:46
by Pugger
TheSkeptic wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 07:32
wallyuwl wrote: ↑23 Jan 2022 21:28
Pugger wrote: ↑23 Jan 2022 21:23
As frustrating and disappointing it is to lose yesterday we are not even in that game with the best record in the league without him under center.
Arguments like this need to be qualified with not knowing who would be in place. If AR was replaced with Brady, Mahomes, Allen, or maybe even Stafford, Wilson, or Burrow, the team is still number 1 seed probably. But with Love it is a 4 or 5 win team.
With Love only having 1 regular season game and a couple of preseason games (he missed 1), I agree. But at this point, what does it matter? The Packers are done for the season 1 week later with Rodgers than they would have been with Love. We can argue about how many games the Packers would have won with Love, but in the end all it mattered was 1 week and an embarrassment at home.
Now Love gets another preseaon and 17 games so 4 or 5 wins is ridiculous. With Rodgers and minus Adams, Tonyan, maybe MVS, Douglas, Campbell and at least 1 Smith the Packers are a 5-7 win team next season. With Love and Tonyan, Douglas, MVS and Campbell and both Smith's the Packers are a 7-9 win team nest season. If they sneak in with 9 wins, how could Love do worse than Rodgers just did? How? One thing is for sure, Love does not get caught from behind by a Dlineman. Last weekend a mostly healthy O could not score 14 points, pathetic.
Someone either here or on FF pointed out one of MFL's gaffs in Saturday's game was putting Turner at LT and Kelly at RT. Turner is not a LT and Kelly couldn't block SF's pass rushers. Matt should have put Nijman at LT and Turner at RT. Yosh was more than serviceable at LT this year.
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 09:53
by packman114
The other play I think he missed was the 2nd down throw to Adams after the false start on Kelly. Looked to me instead of forcing to Adams he had Lazard over the top. The CB on Lazard had inside leverage and was actually cheating towards Adams. Lazard had him beat to the end zone for what looked to me like an easy score.
Almost like the CB knew Rodgers would throw to Adams and ignore Lazard.
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 09:56
by paco
packman114 wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 09:53
The other play I think he missed was the 2nd down throw to Adams after the false start on Kelly. Looked to me instead of forcing to Adams he had Lazard over the top. The CB on Lazard had inside leverage and was actually cheating towards Adams. Lazard had him beat to the end zone for what looked to me like an easy score.
Almost like the CB knew Rodgers would throw to Adams and ignore Lazard.
Rodgers even admitted he should have thrown it to Lazard. Massive miss.
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 10:00
by Pugger
Acrobat wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 09:00
Another thing I've been thinking a lot about over the last day is Aaron Rodgers' Playoff Clutch gene.
I know it's easy to point out to the Hail Marys and a couple other great moments like Chicago '03/Dallas '06 and other regular season games where he's brought the team down the field to score the winning TD or Field Goal, but in the playoffs,
for the most part, it's been a lot different:
2009 Arizona - First play of OT, overthrew Jennings for what would have been a game winning TD
2010 Chicago - We won the game but Rodgers was bad for most of it, and had several opportunities to put the game away and wasn't able to, and ended up putting it on our defense to bail us out.
2010 Super Bowl - With 2 minutes left, had a 3rd and Goal to seal the game, incomplete pass and our defense had to bail us out again.
2011 Giants - Didn't necessarily need him to lead a game winning drive but played down compared to the rest of the year. Overthrew Jennings on the first drive for what would have been a good way to make a statement. Also had a wide open Jennings and had the ball slapped out of his hand.
2014 Seattle - Had the calf injury so gets some forgiveness here, but had several opportunities to blow the game wide open, including a late 4th quarter drive that ended in a Field Goal. Played tentative the whole game and again, did not live up to the MVP play from the season.
2016 Arizona - Even though our defense laid an egg and our WR's weren't 100% healthy, Rodgers was simply outplayed and outmatched by Matt Ryan. 2 weeks later Brady led one of the greatest comebacks in history (for comparison).
2020 Tampa - Rodgers didn't play "bad", but he did miss some throws, had a chance to tie the game late, and couldn't get it done. Disagreed with the Field Goal attempt but Rodgers still failed to cash in 3 downs and goal.
2021 - San Fran - Complete disaster. His worst performance in a playoff game, and could have saved it if he cashed in on several opportunities, could have hit a wide open Lazard late in the 4th quarter to set up a winning field goal.
This post is in no way designed to bash Rodgers and his accomplishments, but when I think about the above 7 examples, I just don't know that Rodgers has what it takes to bring another Championship to Green Bay, especially if our supporting cast will not be as strong in future years. This is why I think I'm ok with rolling the dice with Love (or any other QB that we can draft or pick up in FA) and try to beef up the team around the QB.
Wasn't 2016 the year our roster was literally a shell of its former self? If memory serves this was the "run the table" season. I seriously doubt Brady could have won that game with that surrounding cast in Atlanta (not AZ).
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 10:06
by Acrobat
Pugger wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 10:00
Acrobat wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 09:00
Another thing I've been thinking a lot about over the last day is Aaron Rodgers' Playoff Clutch gene.
I know it's easy to point out to the Hail Marys and a couple other great moments like Chicago '03/Dallas '06 and other regular season games where he's brought the team down the field to score the winning TD or Field Goal, but in the playoffs,
for the most part, it's been a lot different:
2009 Arizona - First play of OT, overthrew Jennings for what would have been a game winning TD
2010 Chicago - We won the game but Rodgers was bad for most of it, and had several opportunities to put the game away and wasn't able to, and ended up putting it on our defense to bail us out.
2010 Super Bowl - With 2 minutes left, had a 3rd and Goal to seal the game, incomplete pass and our defense had to bail us out again.
2011 Giants - Didn't necessarily need him to lead a game winning drive but played down compared to the rest of the year. Overthrew Jennings on the first drive for what would have been a good way to make a statement. Also had a wide open Jennings and had the ball slapped out of his hand.
2014 Seattle - Had the calf injury so gets some forgiveness here, but had several opportunities to blow the game wide open, including a late 4th quarter drive that ended in a Field Goal. Played tentative the whole game and again, did not live up to the MVP play from the season.
2016 Arizona - Even though our defense laid an egg and our WR's weren't 100% healthy, Rodgers was simply outplayed and outmatched by Matt Ryan. 2 weeks later Brady led one of the greatest comebacks in history (for comparison).
2020 Tampa - Rodgers didn't play "bad", but he did miss some throws, had a chance to tie the game late, and couldn't get it done. Disagreed with the Field Goal attempt but Rodgers still failed to cash in 3 downs and goal.
2021 - San Fran - Complete disaster. His worst performance in a playoff game, and could have saved it if he cashed in on several opportunities, could have hit a wide open Lazard late in the 4th quarter to set up a winning field goal.
This post is in no way designed to bash Rodgers and his accomplishments, but when I think about the above 7 examples, I just don't know that Rodgers has what it takes to bring another Championship to Green Bay, especially if our supporting cast will not be as strong in future years. This is why I think I'm ok with rolling the dice with Love (or any other QB that we can draft or pick up in FA) and try to beef up the team around the QB.
Wasn't 2016 the year our roster was literally a shell of its former self? If memory serves this was the "run the table" season. I seriously doubt Brady could have won that game with that surrounding cast in Atlanta (not AZ).
It was, but we did win 8 straight with that same roster. 2016 is probably the weakest example listed above but definitely one of those examples where we lost but never got that feeling of "Wow we lost but Rodgers played lights out".
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 10:15
by Raptorman
Yoop wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 08:38
Raptorman wrote: ↑23 Jan 2022 19:13
dsr wrote: ↑23 Jan 2022 18:18
I bet you haven't been told that. I bet you've been told something much less banal by someone who disagreed with you and have twisted it to make yourself sound to be irrefutably right.
But if you have a link ...
Oh, I was told. I'll see if I can find a link, it's been a while. But I have to warn you, it will take you to a Vikings forum.
FWIW, I don't make &%$@ up.
why are you arguing something any simple minded school kid knows, anyone that doesn't know that a successful offense makes the job of a defense easier, should give up football and take up croque
Really? Exactly how? How has Rodgers made the Packers defense better the last 10 years? Why haven't they been as good as New Englands? Rodgers is a better QB than Brady. Hands down.
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 10:18
by go pak go
Raptorman wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 10:15
Yoop wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 08:38
Raptorman wrote: ↑23 Jan 2022 19:13
Oh, I was told. I'll see if I can find a link, it's been a while. But I have to warn you, it will take you to a Vikings forum.
FWIW, I don't make &%$@ up.
why are you arguing something any simple minded school kid knows, anyone that doesn't know that a successful offense makes the job of a defense easier, should give up football and take up croque
Really? Exactly how? How has Rodgers made the Packers defense better the last 10 years? Why haven't they been as good as New Englands? Rodgers is a better QB than Brady. Hands down.
Yeah I would tend to bet that high powered offenses actually hurt the defense in terms of stats by and large because the games that are played just end up naturally being a higher score affair.
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 10:34
by Yoop
Raptorman wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 10:15
Yoop wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 08:38
Raptorman wrote: ↑23 Jan 2022 19:13
Oh, I was told. I'll see if I can find a link, it's been a while. But I have to warn you, it will take you to a Vikings forum.
FWIW, I don't make &%$@ up.
why are you arguing something any simple minded school kid knows, anyone that doesn't know that a successful offense makes the job of a defense easier, should give up football and take up croque
Really? Exactly how? How has Rodgers made the Packers defense better the last 10 years? Why haven't they been as good as New Englands? Rodgers is a better QB than Brady. Hands down.
could it be that NE had better personal? or that Belichick is one of the best defensive minded coaches in NFL history.
the only thing that could be considered to hamper a defense is that the Packers with Rodgers have been a quick strike offense, so the defense doesn't get a chance to rest, even so, all is asked of them is to protect a lead, our issues on defense has been the lack of depth, almost every season from around 2016 on we have lost near complete position groups of adequate starters, that is the biggest reason our defenses have sucked until 2020.
for anyone to think having a good offense doesn't rub off to making the job easier for the defense makes no sense to me.
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 11:35
by Half Empty
Raptorman wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 10:15
Yoop wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 08:38
Raptorman wrote: ↑23 Jan 2022 19:13
Oh, I was told. I'll see if I can find a link, it's been a while. But I have to warn you, it will take you to a Vikings forum.
FWIW, I don't make &%$@ up.
why are you arguing something any simple minded school kid knows, anyone that doesn't know that a successful offense makes the job of a defense easier, should give up football and take up croque
Really? Exactly how? How has Rodgers made the Packers defense better the last 10 years? Why haven't they been as good as New Englands? Rodgers is a better QB than Brady. Hands down.
As with most sports stuff, it's definitions. Better passer, OK, better QB, no way (the way I define them).
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 11:48
by Gunzaan
Pugger wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 09:40
German_Panzer wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 07:31
Pugger wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 06:43
The main reason why Gute will trade Rodgers away has nothing to do with his play in the post season. It will be a financial reason only. As I said above, Rodgers is the reason why we were the #1 seed this year and why he most likely is the league MVP. Our problem right now is the salary cap.
This game is not played for the salary cap but to win (actually to entertain people and live from the money they pay). If Gute sees Rodgers helping the Packers he want him back and will make the salary cap fit, don't u think?
You can't win if your HOF QB is gobbling up a huge chuck of your salary cap.
He can't do it alone.
He also can’t do it when he has a great defense, a true #1 WR and a solid running game.
That leads me to believe that Rodgers just isn’t as good as people (me included) think he is. He needs an ELITE team to win.
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 12:46
by Acrobat
Gunzaan wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 11:48
Pugger wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 09:40
German_Panzer wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 07:31
This game is not played for the salary cap but to win (actually to entertain people and live from the money they pay). If Gute sees Rodgers helping the Packers he want him back and will make the salary cap fit, don't u think?
You can't win if your HOF QB is gobbling up a huge chuck of your salary cap.
He can't do it alone.
He also can’t do it when he has a great defense, a true #1 WR and a solid running game.
That leads me to believe that Rodgers just isn’t as good as people (me included) think he is. He needs an ELITE team to win.
I pointed to this a few posts up, but I think the core issue is that he's not able to rise up to that Elite level when it counts. Aside from a few epic moments (no denying those), he mostly has not been good in big games and/or clutch situations.
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 12:49
by go pak go
Acrobat wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 12:46
Gunzaan wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 11:48
Pugger wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 09:40
You can't win if your HOF QB is gobbling up a huge chuck of your salary cap.
He can't do it alone.
He also can’t do it when he has a great defense, a true #1 WR and a solid running game.
That leads me to believe that Rodgers just isn’t as good as people (me included) think he is. He needs an ELITE team to win.
I pointed to this a few posts up, but I think the core issue is that he's not able to rise up to that Elite level when it counts. Aside from a few epic moments (no denying those), he mostly has not been good in big games and/or clutch situations.
The narrative on Rodgers changed forever because of 2015 and 2016. The Hail Mary passes to DickRod and Janis Cobb in the 2016 WC game and the drive at Dallas in the Divisional round grew the legend for sure.
I remember a time when it was stated he wasn't clutch. As you stated, that too is ridiculous as he has huuuge moments - especially vs division opponents. But there is a pretty large history now of not rising up in playoff games.
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 13:03
by Acrobat
go pak go wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 12:49
Acrobat wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 12:46
Gunzaan wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 11:48
He also can’t do it when he has a great defense, a true #1 WR and a solid running game.
That leads me to believe that Rodgers just isn’t as good as people (me included) think he is. He needs an ELITE team to win.
I pointed to this a few posts up, but I think the core issue is that he's not able to rise up to that Elite level when it counts. Aside from a few epic moments (no denying those), he mostly has not been good in big games and/or clutch situations.
The narrative on Rodgers changed forever because of 2015 and 2016. The Hail Mary passes to DickRod and Janis Cobb in the 2016 WC game and the drive at Dallas in the Divisional round grew the legend for sure.
I remember a time when it was stated he wasn't clutch. As you stated, that too is ridiculous as he has huuuge moments - especially vs division opponents. But there is a pretty large history now of not rising up in playoff games.
Yep, I hate extremes in either direction, but man, just too many times after these playoff losses I've had that same empty feeling when it came to #12's performance.
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 15:03
by packman114
paco wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 09:56
packman114 wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022 09:53
The other play I think he missed was the 2nd down throw to Adams after the false start on Kelly. Looked to me instead of forcing to Adams he had Lazard over the top. The CB on Lazard had inside leverage and was actually cheating towards Adams. Lazard had him beat to the end zone for what looked to me like an easy score.
Almost like the CB knew Rodgers would throw to Adams and ignore Lazard.
Rodgers even admitted he should have thrown it to Lazard. Massive miss.
No, Rodgers said he should have thrown to Lazard on that final possession. I'm talking about the play before our made FG inside the RZ.
Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 24 Jan 2022 15:25
by Pugger
Rodgers almost plays not to lose in games like this instead of boldly going for broke. His caution is the reason why he rarely turns it over. But that mindset is his Achilles Heel in the post season.