Packers Huddle

BF004 wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2023 11:13

I was thinking on this too. Could be everything from Jones is simply earning those reps and is outplaying Nijman, or to if they want to have Tom at center at Nijman at RT,

They actually went with Tom at LG, Nijman at RT. Myers and JRJ at C/RG respectively as usual.

Labrev wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2023 11:55

BF004 wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2023 11:13

I was thinking on this too. Could be everything from Jones is simply earning those reps and is outplaying Nijman, or to if they want to have Tom at center at Nijman at RT,

They actually went with Tom at LG, Nijman at RT. Myers and JRJ at C/RG respectively as usual.

Having Tom rotate from RT to C with occasional but diminishing LT snaps was a lot, but I see the plan.

RT, C, LG, and LT is too much. He's lined up at at least 4 positions. He's a 2nd-year player still learning the game. I'm hating this. I have long been a proponent of cross-training OLmen by giving each TWO positions to focus on, and determining those two based on whether they're better at switching sides or switching inside/outside primarily (C being a special consideration).

Obviously, you have to move guys around and experiment enough to make those determinations. But once you get an idea, lock them into 2.

As guys become more veteran and more fundamentally sound and technically consistent, then sure, expand the versatility. But I really don't like what we're doing with Tom.

For me, he should do OT (pick a side) and C. Given the need at RT is more immediate, they picked RT it seems. Given that Bakh is clearly struggling to hold his body together while also going through the rigors of being an NFL football player while time continues to advance, I'd could see a case for LT.

But whatevs. If we are worried about C, I propose making Jenkins LG/C. He played C in college and while it's nice to have him settled back into his primary position after previously being treated like Tom is now, LG/C is a reasonable ask. Keep him inside, though.

I would like to see the positions on the OL start to really settle down and congeal by next week's practices

My ideal would be something like this, with primary position and focus listed first while secondary position listed second:


Bakhtiari: Left Tackle only

Jenkins: Left Guard and Center snaps

Myers: Center snaps only right now (I think he might be a decent RG but he needs the reps and focus on his primary job to build consistency and technique)

JRJ: Right Guard and Center snaps

Zach Tom: Right Tackle and Center snaps

Yosh Nijman: Left Tackle and Right Tackle snaps

Rasheed Walker: Left Tackle and Right Tackle snaps

Caleb Jones: Right Tackle and Left Tackle snaps

Sean Rhyan: Right Guard and Center snaps

Jake Hansen: Center and Left Guard snaps.

Royce Newman: cut the bum, but until then, Right Guard and Right Tackle snaps

James Empey and Cole Schneider: Center only

Jean Delance: Right Guard and Right Tackle

Kadeem Telfort and Luke Tenuta: Right Tackle and Left Tackle

That should leave at least a capable 2-deep at every position among the top 8-10 players on the final roster, plus plenty of development for the PS and young guys.



But the main point is that Zach Tom is too young and too important to be "the answer" to every question. Let him get an A or a B in two classes rather than Bs and Cs across 4 or 5 classes

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2023 12:54

I have long been a proponent of cross-training OLmen by giving each TWO positions to focus on, and determining those two based on whether they're better at switching sides or switching inside/outside primarily (C being a special consideration).

Obviously, you have to move guys around and experiment enough to make those determinations. But once you get an idea, lock them into 2.

As guys become more veteran and more fundamentally sound and technically consistent, then sure, expand the versatility. But I really don't like what we're doing with Tom.

For me, he should do OT (pick a side) and C. Given the need at RT is more immediate, they picked RT it seems. Given that Bakh is clearly struggling to hold his body together while also going through the rigors of being an NFL football player while time continues to advance, I'd could see a case for LT.

But whatevs. If we are worried about C, I propose making Jenkins LG/C. He played C in college and while it's nice to have him settled back into his primary position after previously being treated like Tom is now, LG/C is a reasonable ask. Keep him inside, though:

ehh, I am for it if they can handle it. Don't put too much on their plate right away, but it's fine to give them a little more and see if they can handle it.

In any case, I don't think putting him at LG means much. They were resting Jenkins, and they recognize that Tom even with minimal LG training is a better option than anyone else there, or that Walker-Tom is a better left side with the starters out than Tom-Rhyan (not even sure who the next LG is).

best 5 play, so they are moving Tom around to see if he is the best solution as a backup at other positions.

they want to know the pecking order of the next best 5 backups, everyone hates the musical chair approach, but that seems common across the league in that 2 players may need to move when only one lineman is hurt
when ta take into account positional priorities, Toms may be the best choice at 3 positions, Center, Guard, and tackle.

Yoop wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2023 13:43

best 5 play, so they are moving Tom around to see if he is the best solution as a backup at other positions.

Best 5 play unless your LaFleur and you cant evaluate your own talent like last season and left Tom on the bench all season despite him being your 4th best lineman*

Labrev wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2023 13:38

In any case, I don't think putting him at LG means much. They were resting Jenkins, and they recognize that Tom even with minimal LG training is a better option than anyone else there, or that Walker-Tom is a better left side with the starters out than Tom-Rhyan (not even sure who the next LG is).

"not even sure who the next LG is" is my concern.

Tom can't be the answer to every question. If he's our starting RT, I don't want him being LG2.

Get someone else int here who needs the reps and can compete for the job.

CWIMM wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2023 03:58

Yoop wrote: ↑

10 Aug 2023 07:22

well one of those 1.5 seasons was the cancelled covid off season, he looked more prepared when he played last year.

I agree that Love looked improved last season but it was a very small sample size against defenses that didn't game plan for him. As I have mentioned before I need to see him perform in the regular season before making an evaluation.

This should be the response to and end of most conversations in the past 1/2 a year.

No one knows either way, and they are lying to you and themselves if they think they do.

Larry McCarron has noticed Rasheed Walker, too…

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2023 18:22

Labrev wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2023 13:38

In any case, I don't think putting him at LG means much. They were resting Jenkins, and they recognize that Tom even with minimal LG training is a better option than anyone else there, or that Walker-Tom is a better left side with the starters out than Tom-Rhyan (not even sure who the next LG is).

"not even sure who the next LG is" is my concern.

Tom can't be the answer to every question. If he's our starting RT, I don't want him being LG2.

Get someone else in there who needs the reps and can compete for the job.

They have a few options at RG. Just swap JRJ over to LG and play the next up at RG if they are forced to play musical chairs due to injury.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2023 18:22

"not even sure who the next LG is" is my concern.

Tom can't be the answer to every question. If he's our starting RT, I don't want him being LG2.

Get someone else int here who needs the reps and can compete for the job.

Sadly, I think that's just the way it's going to be this year. Like it or not (I don't), the most sensible way to respond to an IOL injury is to move Tom and promote a backup T, because there are plenty of backups at T who are playable: Nijman, Walker, Jones, Tenuta, even Telfort had an overall nice game in Cincy. On the other hand, there are not many at IOL who are; Rhyan might really be -all- we have right now.

Labrev wrote: ↑

15 Aug 2023 08:44

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2023 18:22

"not even sure who the next LG is" is my concern.

Tom can't be the answer to every question. If he's our starting RT, I don't want him being LG2.

Get someone else int here who needs the reps and can compete for the job.

Sadly, I think that's just the way it's going to be this year. Like it or not (I don't), the most sensible way to respond to an IOL injury is to move Tom and promote a backup T, because there are plenty of backups at T who are playable: Nijman, Walker, Jones, Tenuta, even Telfort had an overall nice game in Cincy. On the other hand, there are not many at IOL who are; Rhyan might really be -all- we have right now.

I think Hansen and Rhyan are both (underwhelming but) viable contenders for different reasons. Hansen is experienced and stable and probably will have fewer blown plays but also is below average. Rhyan seems to have a higher ceiling but still has "look away" bad moments way too often to rely on. I guess I'm hoping for more Rhyan development and narrowing his focus to one guard spot with his continued incremental OC work would be ideal. Maybe that's LG; maybe that's RG and have JRJ prepared to move. Ideally, JRJ is veteran and experienced and savvy enough to move around more. Technically, he's just not quite as consistent as you'd like (at any spot, let alone new ones).

It would be nice if JRJ quietly put together a more consistent year; would really be a bonus for us. I certainly haven't heard his name much this year, which is probably ideal?

NCF wrote: ↑

15 Aug 2023 07:42

They have a few options at RG. Just swap JRJ over to LG and play the next up at RG if they are forced to play musical chairs due to injury.

I actually like this

Also, can we discuss the incredible number of center-QB exchange fumbles being reported out of camp this year?

It seems to be happening with Myers-Love, but also with everyone. Myers, Rhyan, Clifford, etc.

I mean I know they brought in those two UDFA centers for a reason, but part of me thinks that everyone who might play a snap at C and at QB this year need to take one of their days off to go visit Alex Mack or something and just have a Centers Camp. Like I don't know what's happening at this position for us this year. Myers looks to have regressed. No one can complete snaps frequently enough. Everyone seems to get their turn rotating through the position... I just want this figured out.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2023 10:44

Offensive linemen would definitely see the defense moving around and they would be talking amongst themselves to point out possible blitzers or stunts. The QB helps to point those out, but there is not much to really adjust among the linemen. They have areas in pass protection because of stunts and blitzes. If they adjusted to what looked like a blitz and picked a man, if that blitz is a feint, and instead the DL ran a stunt, it would screw the blocking. QBs don't have much influence on how the offensive line pass blocks as presnap might not be what happens postsnap.

Offensive linemen definitely can't see the entire defense moving around. They need the quarterback to set up protection based on what the opponent is doing.

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2023 18:03

Best 5 play unless your LaFleur and you cant evaluate your own talent like last season and left Tom on the bench all season despite him being your 4th best lineman*

It's not true that Tom sat on the bench all season long last year, he actually played 84% of the offensive snaps in the nine games he was playing in.

CWIMM wrote: ↑

16 Aug 2023 04:10

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2023 18:03

Best 5 play unless your LaFleur and you cant evaluate your own talent like last season and left Tom on the bench all season despite him being your 4th best lineman*

It's not true that Tom sat on the bench all season long last year, he actually played 84% of the offensive snaps in the nine games he was playing in.

There you go again with those pesky facts…

So in other words he played 84% of the 52% of games he played last season.

APB wrote: ↑

16 Aug 2023 06:18

CWIMM wrote: ↑

16 Aug 2023 04:10

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2023 18:03

Best 5 play unless your LaFleur and you cant evaluate your own talent like last season and left Tom on the bench all season despite him being your 4th best lineman*

It's not true that Tom sat on the bench all season long last year, he actually played 84% of the offensive snaps in the nine games he was playing in.

There you go again with those pesky facts…

He started 5 out of those 9 games. Dressed in all the other but didn’t play. What kind of stat is that? Basically a political statistic.

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

16 Aug 2023 06:18

So in other words he played 84% of the 52% of games he played last season.

lupedafiasco wrote:He started 5 out of those 9 games. He should have started all 9.

That’s pretty damn good considering he was a fourth rd rookie.

It’s amazing to me the things people complain about. Rather than celebrate a great 4th rd find, it’s complain he wasn’t shoved into a prominent role earlier. That fact he got that much playing time his rookie year refutes your own argument of MLF (and staff) not recognizing and utilizing the talent on the roster.

APB wrote: ↑

16 Aug 2023 06:28

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

16 Aug 2023 06:18

So in other words he played 84% of the 52% of games he played last season.

lupedafiasco wrote:He started 5 out of those 9 games. He should have started all 9.

That’s pretty damn good considering he was a fourth rd rookie.

It’s amazing to me the things people complain about. Rather than celebrate a great 4th rd find, it’s complain he wasn’t shoved into a prominent role earlier. That fact he got that much playing time his rookie year refutes your own argument of MLF (and staff) not recognizing and utilizing the talent on the roster.

Finding Tom had nothing to do with LaFleur. That’s a Gutenbumst thing and I love a good Gutenbumst bashing because I do believe he is a $%@# moron and cost this team a championship but he has had 2 great drafts in a row now.

LaFleur has never been able to evaluate talent whether that’s his players or his coaches. This is the same guy who didn’t play Derrick Henry half a season. The same guy who wanted to start Lane Taylor over Jenkins. The same guy who wanted to hire a failed STs bro coach in Drayton to turn around STs. The same coach that hired a DC that led one of the worst defenses in NFL history.

Hell we might even make the playoffs last season if his stupid ass didn’t start Njiman over Tom. Take your Green and Gold glasses off and have an analytical thought.

CWIMM wrote: ↑

16 Aug 2023 04:10

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2023 10:44

Offensive linemen would definitely see the defense moving around and they would be talking amongst themselves to point out possible blitzers or stunts. The QB helps to point those out, but there is not much to really adjust among the linemen. They have areas in pass protection because of stunts and blitzes. If they adjusted to what looked like a blitz and picked a man, if that blitz is a feint, and instead the DL ran a stunt, it would screw the blocking. QBs don't have much influence on how the offensive line pass blocks as presnap might not be what happens postsnap.

Offensive linemen definitely can't see the entire defense moving around. They need the quarterback to set up protection based on what the opponent is doing.

They don't need to see the entire defense, they simply need to communicate across the line which is what they do. 'Set the protection" isn't something QBs do for the offensive line. It is moving a back or TE to help combat a possible blitz or stunt. OL can't be moved around now can they zero in on a certain "protection" as blitzes and stunts would make it pretty useless as so as the ball is snapped. OL block an area and the most the QB can really do for them is help call out potential blitzes. What do you believe "set the protection" looks like?

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

16 Aug 2023 06:45

APB wrote: ↑

16 Aug 2023 06:28

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

16 Aug 2023 06:18

So in other words he played 84% of the 52% of games he played last season.

lupedafiasco wrote:He started 5 out of those 9 games. He should have started all 9.

That’s pretty damn good considering he was a fourth rd rookie.

It’s amazing to me the things people complain about. Rather than celebrate a great 4th rd find, it’s complain he wasn’t shoved into a prominent role earlier. That fact he got that much playing time his rookie year refutes your own argument of MLF (and staff) not recognizing and utilizing the talent on the roster.

Finding Tom had nothing to do with LaFleur. That’s a Gutenbumst thing and I love a good Gutenbumst bashing because I do believe he is a $%@# moron and cost this team a championship but he has had 2 great drafts in a row now.

LaFleur has never been able to evaluate talent whether that’s his players or his coaches. This is the same guy who didn’t play Derrick Henry half a season. The same guy who wanted to start Lane Taylor over Jenkins. The same guy who wanted to hire a failed STs bro coach in Drayton to turn around STs. The same coach that hired a DC that led one of the worst defenses in NFL history.

Hell we might even make the playoffs last season if his stupid ass didn’t start Njiman over Tom. Take your Green and Gold glasses off and have an analytical thought.

come on you know coaches tend to require experience or practice that proves a player can play mistake free before they use them, and OL can only play in unison when all 5 are on the same page, and Lafleur has to listen to the advice of his position coaches, yes the buck stops with Lafleur because he's the HC, but we both know they can't make every decision, Butkis and Stenavich had just as much to do with that stuff as Lafleur did.

imo Lafleur is a lot better coach then you give him credit for, same with Gutekunst, no one seems to be perfect enough for you.