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Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 10 Nov 2023 12:37
by Crazylegs Starks
Papa John wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 10:00
APB, while what you are saying here is technically true, I would argue that the circumstances surrounding the Rodgers pick were more different than you and others are letting on. Aaron Rodgers was projected by many to go
#1 overall. The big question that year was "Aaron Rodgers or Alex Smith?" Somehow, inexplicably, he fell all the way to us. The consensus was that this QB from Cal will be a franchise QB for whichever team takes him.
Who was saying those things about Jordan Love?
This doesn't directly address your question, but didn't the Dolphins coach at the time say he really got into it with the owner about picking Love over Tua at #5?
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 10 Nov 2023 12:45
by Yoop
Acrobat wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 10:33
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 09:59
Acrobat wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 09:37
You like Reddit, there eh? :D
Yeah, like I said, Favre had made that comment, but it was more media driven. Literally no one in the Packers FO actually had any belief that Favre was going to retire.
you don't know any m ore then I do what Thompson thought of Favres repeated retirement BS, it happened and a GM has to pay attention to it, again Ted didn't go after Rodgers, he didn't trade up for him, which Guty did.
yes he said he couldn't find a trade partner to go after the more team needy position of WR, if you want to believe that, fine, I don't for a minute though, Brian has never had a problem finding trade partners for players he wants, Rodgers and Lafleur worked well enough together installing Matts offense to go 13-3, Rodgers had no intentions to leave as Favre had.
I'm not really sure what your argument is. Neither player retired or had intensions of retiring
my argument is that one repeatedly mentioned retirement while the other never did, intentions have absolutely nothing to do with this, I have intentions all the time, no one banks the future on intentions.
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 10 Nov 2023 12:50
by Yoop
Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 12:37
Papa John wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 10:00
APB, while what you are saying here is technically true, I would argue that the circumstances surrounding the Rodgers pick were more different than you and others are letting on. Aaron Rodgers was projected by many to go
#1 overall. The big question that year was "Aaron Rodgers or Alex Smith?" Somehow, inexplicably, he fell all the way to us. The consensus was that this QB from Cal will be a franchise QB for whichever team takes him.
Who was saying those things about Jordan Love?
This doesn't directly address your question, but didn't the Dolphins coach at the time say he really got into it with the owner about picking Love over Tua at #5?
rumors, never saw that in writing, most draft people had Love with a 2nd round grade, and so far Love hasn't proved that to be wrong, course on the other hand, lots of QB's taken top 5 turned out to be worth even less then a round two grade
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 10 Nov 2023 13:12
by Crazylegs Starks
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 12:50
Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 12:37
Papa John wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 10:00
APB, while what you are saying here is technically true, I would argue that the circumstances surrounding the Rodgers pick were more different than you and others are letting on. Aaron Rodgers was projected by many to go
#1 overall. The big question that year was "Aaron Rodgers or Alex Smith?" Somehow, inexplicably, he fell all the way to us. The consensus was that this QB from Cal will be a franchise QB for whichever team takes him.
Who was saying those things about Jordan Love?
This doesn't directly address your question, but didn't the Dolphins coach at the time say he really got into it with the owner about picking Love over Tua at #5?
rumors, never saw that in writing, most draft people had Love with a 2nd round grade, and so far Love hasn't proved that to be wrong, course on the other hand, lots of QB's taken top 5 turned out to be worth even less then a round two grade
Yes, rumors, which is why I said it doesn't directly address his question
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 10 Nov 2023 13:54
by Labrev
Love after his first starting season at Utah State was considered a Top-10 QB. His junior year with all the turnover dropped him.
Rodgers did not fall for no reason, evaluators were spooked about Tedford QBs.
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 10 Nov 2023 14:34
by Acrobat
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 12:45
Acrobat wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 10:33
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 09:59
you don't know any m ore then I do what Thompson thought of Favres repeated retirement BS, it happened and a GM has to pay attention to it, again Ted didn't go after Rodgers, he didn't trade up for him, which Guty did.
yes he said he couldn't find a trade partner to go after the more team needy position of WR, if you want to believe that, fine, I don't for a minute though, Brian has never had a problem finding trade partners for players he wants, Rodgers and Lafleur worked well enough together installing Matts offense to go 13-3, Rodgers had no intentions to leave as Favre had.
I'm not really sure what your argument is. Neither player retired or had intensions of retiring
my argument is that one repeatedly mentioned retirement while the other never did, intentions have absolutely nothing to do with this, I have intentions all the time, no one banks the future on intentions.
He didn't really though before we drafted Rodgers. There was the one year only where he said he needed to think about his future, and he had committed to playing before the draft.
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 10 Nov 2023 15:51
by wallyuwl
Labrev wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 13:54
Love after his first starting season at Utah State was considered a Top-10 QB. His junior year with all the turnover dropped him.
Rodgers did not fall for no reason, evaluators were spooked about Tedford QBs.
Yeah, with AR it was two things: 1. Tedford QBs. Which wasn't fair to AR. It was perception vs reality. 2. AR held the ball high because that is how Tedford wanted his QBs to do it because he thought it resulted in a quicker release. Coaches fixed that within a year.
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 10 Nov 2023 16:30
by APB
wallyuwl wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 15:51
Labrev wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 13:54
Love after his first starting season at Utah State was considered a Top-10 QB. His junior year with all the turnover dropped him.
Rodgers did not fall for no reason, evaluators were spooked about Tedford QBs.
Yeah, with AR it was two things: 1. Tedford QBs. Which wasn't fair to AR. It was perception vs reality. 2. AR held the ball high because that is how Tedford wanted his QBs to do it because he thought it resulted in a quicker release. Coaches fixed that within a year.
As I recall, there was a certain level of arrogance/cockiness that Rodgers was perceived to carry. Excessive to the point of alienating in the eyes of several GMs. If memory serves, I believe that weighed significantly in the 49ers choosing Smith over Rodgers at pick 1.
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 10 Nov 2023 16:39
by Papa John
APB wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 10:59
@Yoop @Papa John
You two are countering with arguments I never made. I don't disagree the Love pick was ill timed and probably an outright overreach when you consider the Packers traded up for him in R1. The fact it came on the heels of an NFCCG appearance and MVP season from Rodgers made it all the more nonsensical.
I don't nor have I disputed any of that. I was critical of the pick from the very onset. The difference is I accepted it for what it was once it was done and have tried to keep my judgment of Love based upon reasonable expectations and not biased by my dislike of the original pick. It seems many here have never moved beyond their disdain for the Love selection and view his performances through that same biased lens.
Anyway, the point I was making was the contrarian logic being used to support one side of the argument while using it to refute the other. It's inconsistent and a bit disingenuous. That is the only point I am making in regards to the current Love argument.
What exactly is the correct lens through which Love should be evaluated? I have said since the beginning that I don't hold Love's draft position against him. I never expected Love to be our third consecutive HOF QB, because that is unfair to him. To be honest, I really have no expectations of him and never did. There have been many, many QB's taken in round 1 whose names have been all but forgotten.
So I'm not sure exactly what/who you are referring to when you say "contrarian logic." I still don't understand your point, I am sorry. Please simplify it.
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 10 Nov 2023 17:02
by Half Empty
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 12:45
Acrobat wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 10:33
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 09:59
you don't know any m ore then I do what Thompson thought of Favres repeated retirement BS, it happened and a GM has to pay attention to it, again Ted didn't go after Rodgers, he didn't trade up for him, which Guty did.
yes he said he couldn't find a trade partner to go after the more team needy position of WR, if you want to believe that, fine, I don't for a minute though, Brian has never had a problem finding trade partners for players he wants, Rodgers and Lafleur worked well enough together installing Matts offense to go 13-3, Rodgers had no intentions to leave as Favre had.
I'm not really sure what your argument is. Neither player retired or had intensions of retiring
my argument is that one repeatedly mentioned retirement while the other never did, intentions have absolutely nothing to do with this, I have intentions all the time, no one banks the future on intentions.
So, if somebody points a pistol at your head and tells you he intends to shoot you, you'd be fine with it until the bullet hits?
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 10 Nov 2023 17:57
by APB
Papa John wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 16:39
APB wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 10:59
@Yoop @Papa John
You two are countering with arguments I never made. I don't disagree the Love pick was ill timed and probably an outright overreach when you consider the Packers traded up for him in R1. The fact it came on the heels of an NFCCG appearance and MVP season from Rodgers made it all the more nonsensical.
I don't nor have I disputed any of that. I was critical of the pick from the very onset. The difference is I accepted it for what it was once it was done and have tried to keep my judgment of Love based upon reasonable expectations and not biased by my dislike of the original pick. It seems many here have never moved beyond their disdain for the Love selection and view his performances through that same biased lens.
Anyway, the point I was making was the contrarian logic being used to support one side of the argument while using it to refute the other. It's inconsistent and a bit disingenuous. That is the only point I am making in regards to the current Love argument.
What exactly is the correct lens through which Love should be evaluated? I have said since the beginning that I don't hold Love's draft position against him. I never expected Love to be our third consecutive HOF QB, because that is unfair to him. To be honest, I really have no expectations of him and never did. There have been many, many QB's taken in round 1 whose names have been all but forgotten.
So I'm not sure exactly what/who you are referring to when you say "contrarian logic." I still don't understand your point, I am sorry. Please simplify it.
My “contrarian” response was directed at another poster.
Your inclusion in my response was more to do with responses to me conflating other issues in the drafting of Rodgers/Love whereas I was being specific to certain statement by another poster. No worries, I think we’re closely aligned in our view overall.
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 14 Nov 2023 05:53
by CWIMM
TheSkeptic wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 06:05
Absolutely true. Jennings, Jones, Driver, Nelson, Chmura, Jackson, Finley when Rodgers was in his prime. Adams and Cobb later. All these were quality receivers. And Jones is a great receiving RB. Tonyan was very good too, for 1 year, before that ACL. If QB and receivers were all that is required for a SB, Rodgers should have 5 rings.
Chmura and Jackson retired years before Rodgers was drafted.
dsr wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 06:54
When they did the draft in 2005, they couldn't use the following season's results as a guide. More likely they would use the previous season, the one that had actually been played, which was 10-6 and number 3 seed in the NFC.
Besides, there are no circumstances in 2005 that would have made it wrong to draft Rodgers. I can't think there is ever a circumstances in which you can say "this man is a future Hall of Fame quarterback who can lead the franchise for 15 years, but we need [insert random position] more."
APB wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 07:21
That was exactly my thought, as well. Didn't want to steal your thunder, though...
It's a bit disingenuous to say the Packers were not contenders coming off a #3 seed entering the 2005 draft ths justifying the selection of Rodgers and then argue the exact opposite for the 2020 draft and condemning the FO for drafting Love. It's not logically consistent. Fact is the Packers saw an opportunity to draft a player they thought very highly of in both situations and jumped at it. As with Rodgers, only time will tell if it was a wise decision.
The Packers entered the 2005 season with significant cap issues resulting in the loss of Rivera, Sharper and Wahle. The front office was well aware that was a rebuilding year. Therefore they found themselves in a completely different situation than during the 2020 offseason.
As a side note, you're using hindsight to analyze the selection of Rodgers. At that point no one knew he would end up being a HOFer.
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 15 Nov 2023 09:49
by dsr
CWIMM wrote: ↑14 Nov 2023 05:53
As a side note, you're using hindsight to analyze the selection of Rodgers. At that point no one knew he would end up being a HOFer.
Obviously I'm using hindsight. To assess whether or not someone was a good draft pick, you have to use hindsight. (Those gradings for the draft which various experts make immediately afterwards, are no more than clickbait interest. They mean nothing.)
Thompson picked Rodgers because for various reasons, the sum of which meant that they believed he was the best pick for the franchise. Minnesota, for example, went a different route with two picks ahead of the Packers - they decided that the best way for the franchise was to stick with Brad Johnson at QB, and selected Troy Williamson and Erasmus James. We use hindsight to say that Minnesota got it wrong, and (for all but a very few) that the Packers got it right.
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 25 Nov 2023 01:13
by TheSkeptic
After the Lions game, I have to change my opinion of MLF. I still don't think the Packers make the playoffs this season but this is a good team lacking only experience and primed for a legitimate run next season. If everything is good, there should be credit rather than blame.
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 25 Nov 2023 07:41
by packman114
I like what MLF did this week but the inability to have a successful run game still bothers me. 5 years in and 3rd and short is a struggle for this team. You can't keep blaming the o-line after 5 years. It has to be the play design.
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 25 Nov 2023 08:00
by Yoop
packman114 wrote: ↑25 Nov 2023 07:41
I like what MLF did this week but the inability to have a successful run game still bothers me. 5 years in and 3rd and short is a struggle for this team. You can't keep blaming the o-line after 5 years. It has to be the play design.
why can't we blame the OL? it's ranked bottom third of the league run blocking, if not even worse, plus Jones is out, Dillon gets yardage with second effort, Lafleur run schemes worked great when the line blocked better and Jones and Dillon where at full strength, I see nothing wrong with Lafleurs run plans that better blocking and Johnathan Taylor couldn't fix
and I think this next draft will/could provide it, good draft for both OL and RB.
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 25 Nov 2023 08:07
by go pak go
TheSkeptic wrote: ↑25 Nov 2023 01:13
After the Lions game, I have to change my opinion of MLF. I still don't think the Packers make the playoffs this season but this is a good team lacking only experience and primed for a legitimate run next season. If everything is good, there should be credit rather than blame.
Oh we're making the playoffs.
My goal now is to make it as a true playoff team and not the fake 7th seed.
BELIEVE!!!
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 25 Nov 2023 08:55
by NCF
CWIMM wrote: ↑14 Nov 2023 05:53
TheSkeptic wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 06:05
Absolutely true. Jennings, Jones, Driver, Nelson, Chmura, Jackson, Finley when Rodgers was in his prime. Adams and Cobb later. All these were quality receivers. And Jones is a great receiving RB. Tonyan was very good too, for 1 year, before that ACL. If QB and receivers were all that is required for a SB, Rodgers should have 5 rings.
Chmura and Jackson retired years before Rodgers was drafted.
If Chewy was still around when Rodgers was drafted the hot tub chick would have been perfectly legal.
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 25 Nov 2023 09:02
by Yoop
NCF wrote: ↑25 Nov 2023 08:55
CWIMM wrote: ↑14 Nov 2023 05:53
TheSkeptic wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 06:05
Absolutely true. Jennings, Jones, Driver, Nelson, Chmura, Jackson, Finley when Rodgers was in his prime. Adams and Cobb later. All these were quality receivers. And Jones is a great receiving RB. Tonyan was very good too, for 1 year, before that ACL. If QB and receivers were all that is required for a SB, Rodgers should have 5 rings.
Chmura and Jackson retired years before Rodgers was drafted.
If Chewy was still around when Rodgers was drafted the hot tub chick would have been perfectly legal.
probably married with quad tuplets
Re: Play the 2023 Packers Blame Game!
Posted: 25 Nov 2023 09:48
by go pak go
Matt LeFluer was on the "warm" seat a month ago.
Matt LeFluer now deserves SO MUCH praise. If he can turn this ship around and we go into the postseason playing well....the whole cry baby mantra will need to stop.
I believe Thursday's win was his best game of his career. Arizona in 2021 was also one that I always thought so highly of.