The Way a Packers Forum Should Be
https://packers-huddle.com/phpBB/
Only person in the building you’d ever criticize is Rodgers so I’m not surprised you are offended when I said I’m willing to give Gutey a couple more years before final judgement…but the jury is still out.YoHoChecko wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 20:09We literally haven't had an offseason yet and you're asking us to evaluate the roster.Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 18:46What does the safety position look like going into 2023? What about the TE group? Receiver? How about edge rusher?
Love is not walking into a dumpster fire, but he’s far from walking into a complete roster like Rodgers walked into.
Part of this is Guteys direct fault for screwing with the cap when he was so indecisive about whether to look forward or backward
2018:
Gutey drafts Jaire Alexander. He makes the Pro Bowl in his 3rd and 5th pro years
2019:
Gutey signs Za'Darius Smith who had never been to a Pro Bowl. He makes the Pro Bowl in 2019 and 2020
Gutey drafts Elkton Jenkins, who makes the Pro Bowl in his 2nd and 4th seasons
Gutey drafts Rashan Gary, who looks like a promising player to make a Pro Bowl in his career and was a 2021 pro bowl alternate
2021:
Gutey signs DeVondre Campbell, who has never made a Pro Bowl. He is All Pro his first season with the team.
Gutey signs Rasul Douglas, who had never been to a Pro Bowl. He is a Pro Bowl alternate in his first year with the team
2022:
Gutey signs Keisean Nixon, who had never been to a Pro Bowl. He is All Pro his first year with the team.
Gutey drafts Christian Watson, OROY runner up and quite possibly That Dude
Add in solid role players like Preston Smith, Adrian Amos, MVS, AJ Dillon...
Like I'm sorry but the number of elite and semi-elite players on our roster has skyrocketed under Gutey. I get it; no Super Bowl. But as mentioned, the team, WITH RODGERS, was a losing team before he got there, then he hired a head coach and brought in his free agents and draft picks and they went 39-10 and made 2 conference championship games over the next three seasons.
This team has been massively successful. You have to look at who was added to the team. If you compile lists of mistakes, every General Manager has a book-length list. You're working percentages. The number of HIGH quality hits Gutenkunst has is outstanding. That so many of you can only focus on the negative is, honestly, breathtaking. We've been blessed by success and y'all can't even spot how good we have it.
Is he perfect? Absolutely not. But I'd give him about a 7 out of 10
No. You don’t judge a Gm by individual names acquired. You judge a GM by how they build a team. Ron Wolf-excellent. Ted Thompson - excellent for a long time. Gutey- to be determined.YoHoChecko wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 20:39Again.
You have to look at what has been acquired.
If you took a list of any GM's past 40 or so draft picks, you'd realize you've never even heard of half of them and even fewer got lucrative second contracts to remain in the NFL beyond their 4 year controlled rights period, if they got any contract at all.
If you looked at every free agent a GM signed, you'd realize half of them were nondescript players who didn't work out or were low-impact players.
If you took a list of every team's weakest position group or are of underwhelming statistical output, you'd find something to list every year.
But the Packers have added 6 Pro Bowl or All Pro players, 2 more who have been alternates, multiple players who made the all rookie team, a handful more that have not even approached their ceilings yet, and a team that has gone 13-3, 13-3, 13-4, and 7-9 the past 4 years under their new head coach.
Their winning percentage in 5 years under Gutey is .652. The team's winning percentage in the 5 years before him was .594
The team went to 2 NFC Championship games in the past 5 years and only 1 NFC championship game in the 5 years prior.
The team led the league in Pro Bowlers in 2021 with 7
Aaron Rodgers had a passer rating of 103.2, 162 TDs and 27 INTs in the 5 years with Gutey; he had a passer rating of 102.5, 142 TDs, and 32 INTs in the 5 years prior... meaning Rodgers played SLIGHTLY better under Gutey and the team won a lot more with that similar level of play.
It’s not that weird of a response. Murphy hired a new coach and the QB play elevated. He also certainly elevated the roster talent. Just not enough. You don’t get gold stars for some improvement. You get gold stars for improving enough to have a Super Bowl appearance, when you have the back to back mvp. Sad fact is Gute didn’t build a team to do that. Now we wait and see what he can do when he loses his safety blanket…a hof qbYoHoChecko wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:04Weird response since I just pointed out that in addition to elevating the team talent, the team's winning percentage and conference championship game appearances also increased under him.
Absolutely, how the Jordan Love situation plays out will always be important, just like for TT, how Rodgers played out would always be important.
But when a GM comes in and the team starts getting better and there are unheralded players signing to the team and making their first career pro bowl almost every year of his tenure, that GM is doing darn well.
If you're talking team, then win-loss record has to be a barometer for how good a team actually is.Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 20:57No. You don’t judge a Gm by individual names acquired. You judge a GM by how they build a team. Ron Wolf-excellent. Ted Thompson - excellent for a long time. Gutey- to be determined.YoHoChecko wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 20:39Again.
You have to look at what has been acquired.
If you took a list of any GM's past 40 or so draft picks, you'd realize you've never even heard of half of them and even fewer got lucrative second contracts to remain in the NFL beyond their 4 year controlled rights period, if they got any contract at all.
If you looked at every free agent a GM signed, you'd realize half of them were nondescript players who didn't work out or were low-impact players.
If you took a list of every team's weakest position group or are of underwhelming statistical output, you'd find something to list every year.
But the Packers have added 6 Pro Bowl or All Pro players, 2 more who have been alternates, multiple players who made the all rookie team, a handful more that have not even approached their ceilings yet, and a team that has gone 13-3, 13-3, 13-4, and 7-9 the past 4 years under their new head coach.
Their winning percentage in 5 years under Gutey is .652. The team's winning percentage in the 5 years before him was .594
The team went to 2 NFC Championship games in the past 5 years and only 1 NFC championship game in the 5 years prior.
The team led the league in Pro Bowlers in 2021 with 7
Aaron Rodgers had a passer rating of 103.2, 162 TDs and 27 INTs in the 5 years with Gutey; he had a passer rating of 102.5, 142 TDs, and 32 INTs in the 5 years prior... meaning Rodgers played SLIGHTLY better under Gutey and the team won a lot more with that similar level of play.
Over paying for free agents when Pettine got to town, and then use resources to take 3 years to develop a raw talent when the WR position is being neglected is not good team building. Using a 2 on a RB is not good team building.
There are plenty of GMs who bring in talent every year and never win a thing. Those are teams like the Vikings, the cowboys, the chargers, the browns (recently).
Then there are teams that build complete teams and beat the packers on their way to winning super bowls, or they just go ahead and win them. These are the chiefs, who rebuild the OL after getting manhandled by the bucs. And who try out every available playmaker to try to replace tyreke. This is the niners who destroy the packers, this is the bucs in their title season, this is a team who hasn’t won in a while but everyone expected to be awful…the Seahawks.
Individual players are not the mark of a good GM. Building cohesive units, finding guys that would rather die than lose, and eliminating weak spots is the mark of a good GM. In other words, team builders.
I don't think that us really being arguedYoHoChecko wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:04Weird response since I just pointed out that in addition to elevating the team talent, the team's winning percentage and conference championship game appearances also increased under him.
Absolutely, how the Jordan Love situation plays out will always be important, just like for TT, how Rodgers played out would always be important.
But when a GM comes in and the team starts getting better and there are unheralded players signing to the team and making their first career pro bowl almost every year of his tenure, that GM is doing darn well.
Oh and Tyler Huntley made the pro bowl, that accolade doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means.YoHoChecko wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:04Weird response since I just pointed out that in addition to elevating the team talent, the team's winning percentage and conference championship game appearances also increased under him.
Absolutely, how the Jordan Love situation plays out will always be important, just like for TT, how Rodgers played out would always be important.
But when a GM comes in and the team starts getting better and there are unheralded players signing to the team and making their first career pro bowl almost every year of his tenure, that GM is doing darn well.
Like I said earlier, the Phillip rivers goal of winning all the regular season games is cool when you have a normal QB. When you have a back to back MVP at QB, the goal should be super bowls. We failed at that goal.go pak go wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:12If you're talking team, then win-loss record has to be a barometer for how good a team actually is.Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 20:57No. You don’t judge a Gm by individual names acquired. You judge a GM by how they build a team. Ron Wolf-excellent. Ted Thompson - excellent for a long time. Gutey- to be determined.YoHoChecko wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 20:39Again.
You have to look at what has been acquired.
If you took a list of any GM's past 40 or so draft picks, you'd realize you've never even heard of half of them and even fewer got lucrative second contracts to remain in the NFL beyond their 4 year controlled rights period, if they got any contract at all.
If you looked at every free agent a GM signed, you'd realize half of them were nondescript players who didn't work out or were low-impact players.
If you took a list of every team's weakest position group or are of underwhelming statistical output, you'd find something to list every year.
But the Packers have added 6 Pro Bowl or All Pro players, 2 more who have been alternates, multiple players who made the all rookie team, a handful more that have not even approached their ceilings yet, and a team that has gone 13-3, 13-3, 13-4, and 7-9 the past 4 years under their new head coach.
Their winning percentage in 5 years under Gutey is .652. The team's winning percentage in the 5 years before him was .594
The team went to 2 NFC Championship games in the past 5 years and only 1 NFC championship game in the 5 years prior.
The team led the league in Pro Bowlers in 2021 with 7
Aaron Rodgers had a passer rating of 103.2, 162 TDs and 27 INTs in the 5 years with Gutey; he had a passer rating of 102.5, 142 TDs, and 32 INTs in the 5 years prior... meaning Rodgers played SLIGHTLY better under Gutey and the team won a lot more with that similar level of play.
Over paying for free agents when Pettine got to town, and then use resources to take 3 years to develop a raw talent when the WR position is being neglected is not good team building. Using a 2 on a RB is not good team building.
There are plenty of GMs who bring in talent every year and never win a thing. Those are teams like the Vikings, the cowboys, the chargers, the browns (recently).
Then there are teams that build complete teams and beat the packers on their way to winning super bowls, or they just go ahead and win them. These are the chiefs, who rebuild the OL after getting manhandled by the bucs. And who try out every available playmaker to try to replace tyreke. This is the niners who destroy the packers, this is the bucs in their title season, this is a team who hasn’t won in a while but everyone expected to be awful…the Seahawks.
Individual players are not the mark of a good GM. Building cohesive units, finding guys that would rather die than lose, and eliminating weak spots is the mark of a good GM. In other words, team builders.
Getting 13+ wins in the NFL is really, really hard. There are literally franchises who have never gotten to 13 wins in a season. I like to use 13 wins as the barometer because it is an elite level of team performance.
Ron Wolf - 2 seasons of 13 wins (96 & 97)
Ted Thompson - 2 seasons of 13+ wins (07 & 11)
Brian Gutekunst - 3 seasons of 13 wins (19, 20, 21)
I'm sorry. But that is a good team build. You don't accidentally get to 3 seasons in a row of 13 wins. And don't give me, "he had Rodgers" because that same QB only got to 13 wins one other time in his entire career.
Yes. BG has faults. His drafts especially have had a lot of bad misses. But there is also tremendous success in that resume.
But we haven't. The Lions have always sucked. The Bears have always sucked. The Vikings before 2015 sucked.
I didn’t say back to back. I was saying “2 MVPs during their tenure”go pak go wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:26On the top of my head, 4 teams have had "back to back" MVPs in the SB era.
1. Green Bay Packers with Brett Favre - 1 SB win (3 seasons)
2. St. Louis Rams with Faulk and Warner - 1 SB win (3 seasons)
3. Peyton Manning with the Colts - 0 SB wins (2 seasons)
4. Green Bay Packers with Rodgers - 0 SB wins (2 seasons)
So 2 SBs in 8 seasons in this population.
I don’t think you are I are in much disagreement on Gutey. I’m in total “wait and see” mode, while also recognizing he failed at his goal in phase one of his career. The goal he told us was the standard..while you have Rodgers at QB.go pak go wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:31But we haven't. The Lions have always sucked. The Bears have always sucked. The Vikings before 2015 sucked.
If it's so easy...then how come Rodgers only hit 13 wins once prior to 2019? Easy divisions netted us 11 wins and sometimes 12 win seasons, but rarely 13 win seasons. The Packers in my lifetime was the #1 seed ONCE prior to Brian Gutekunst and BG's teams did it twice.
Like come on. Again. I'm not saying he's elite. But also give the dude some credit. He has done a lot of great things as GM. Doesn't mean I won't be ready to move on from him if these next 12 months go poorly.