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Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 10:23
by go pak go
Yoop wrote: ↑11 May 2022 17:42
BF004 wrote: ↑11 May 2022 17:12
NCF wrote: ↑11 May 2022 15:37
I look at it a little bit differently. Most impact on 2022 doesn't require a guy to play all 17 games. I guess it should be factored in there somewhere, but I am looking at it more "if we get to January, these are the most important guys on our roster", POV.
Now that’s logic I like.
Me to, thats why I've been voting for Jones, we are thin at veteran skill positions, Jones was our #2 last year, missed a game and played dinged up in others, still had 50 catches and 1200 yrds total, so when it comes to expectations for increased player production, Jones tops my list, expected 1500 total yrds for Jones last year, same for this year.
Interesting.
That's why I don't like Jones. 2 years he lays eggs in the playoff games we lose. I do need to give him props for his LA Rams game in 2020, but I just can't get past the RB screen whif (just run you damn fool) and doing nothing vs Tampa.
I just can't get into enough how disappointing that RB screen pass before half was for me. That was a career defining play to the bad side. I am very slow to forgive on monumental gaffs on the largest stage (when you are a star). Because those are when moments are there to be made. And the opportunity was there.
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 10:28
by Pckfn23
go pak go wrote: ↑12 May 2022 10:23
That's why I don't like Jones. 2 years he lays eggs in the playoff games we lose.
I don't think you can accurately say this...
He did have 170 total yards against SF. We had 263 total on the day.
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 10:42
by Drj820
go pak go wrote: ↑12 May 2022 10:23
Yoop wrote: ↑11 May 2022 17:42
BF004 wrote: ↑11 May 2022 17:12
Now that’s logic I like.
Me to, thats why I've been voting for Jones, we are thin at veteran skill positions, Jones was our #2 last year, missed a game and played dinged up in others, still had 50 catches and 1200 yrds total, so when it comes to expectations for increased player production, Jones tops my list, expected 1500 total yrds for Jones last year, same for this year.
Interesting.
That's why I don't like Jones. 2 years he lays eggs in the playoff games we lose. I do not need to give him props for his LA Rams game in 2020, but I just can't get past the RB screen whif (just run you damn fool) and doing nothing vs Tampa.
I just can't get into enough how disappointing that RB screen pass before half was for me. That was a career defining play to the bad side. I am very slow to forgive on monumental gaffs on the largest stage (when you are a star). Because those are when moments are there to be made. And the opportunity was there.
Crazy talk
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 10:45
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑12 May 2022 10:23
Yoop wrote: ↑11 May 2022 17:42
BF004 wrote: ↑11 May 2022 17:12
Now that’s logic I like.
Me to, thats why I've been voting for Jones, we are thin at veteran skill positions, Jones was our #2 last year, missed a game and played dinged up in others, still had 50 catches and 1200 yrds total, so when it comes to expectations for increased player production, Jones tops my list, expected 1500 total yrds for Jones last year, same for this year.
Interesting.
That's why I don't like Jones. 2 years he lays eggs in the playoff games we lose. I do not need to give him props for his LA Rams game in 2020, but I just can't get past the RB screen whif (just run you damn fool) and doing nothing vs Tampa.
I just can't get into enough how disappointing that RB screen pass before half was for me. That was a career defining play to the bad side. I am very slow to forgive on monumental gaffs on the largest stage (when you are a star). Because those are when moments are there to be made. And the opportunity was there.
you don't describe the play accurtly because it blows your complaints right out of the water, the guy was our #2 for both regular season and the PO's.
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 10:57
by go pak go
Drj820 wrote: ↑12 May 2022 10:42
go pak go wrote: ↑12 May 2022 10:23
Yoop wrote: ↑11 May 2022 17:42
Me to, thats why I've been voting for Jones, we are thin at veteran skill positions, Jones was our #2 last year, missed a game and played dinged up in others, still had 50 catches and 1200 yrds total, so when it comes to expectations for increased player production, Jones tops my list, expected 1500 total yrds for Jones last year, same for this year.
Interesting.
That's why I don't like Jones. 2 years he lays eggs in the playoff games we lose. I do not need to give him props for his LA Rams game in 2020, but I just can't get past the RB screen whif (just run you damn fool) and doing nothing vs Tampa.
I just can't get into enough how disappointing that RB screen pass before half was for me. That was a career defining play to the bad side. I am very slow to forgive on monumental gaffs on the largest stage (when you are a star). Because those are when moments are there to be made. And the opportunity was there.
Crazy talk
Not crazy talk. Just dramatic talk. Not #5 on my list. He is after Gary for me.
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 11:05
by Drj820
go pak go wrote: ↑12 May 2022 10:57
Drj820 wrote: ↑12 May 2022 10:42
go pak go wrote: ↑12 May 2022 10:23
Interesting.
That's why I don't like Jones. 2 years he lays eggs in the playoff games we lose. I do not need to give him props for his LA Rams game in 2020, but I just can't get past the RB screen whif (just run you damn fool) and doing nothing vs Tampa.
I just can't get into enough how disappointing that RB screen pass before half was for me. That was a career defining play to the bad side. I am very slow to forgive on monumental gaffs on the largest stage (when you are a star). Because those are when moments are there to be made. And the opportunity was there.
Crazy talk
Not crazy talk. Just dramatic talk. Not #5 on my list. He is after Gary for me.
Fair enough, I too like to talk dramatically sometimes to drive home points.
That said, I think you’ve always been too hard on Jones for that play before the half. The throw itself made Jones stop his forward momentum and stop and turn around to gather the ball, then he took off from no momentum and really never seemed to have his footing. I also think he was a bit gassed. I don’t see it as such a guarantee that he gets in if he just sprints straight. Not after having to stop his progress to retrieve the ball.
Also, the play should have earned the team 3 points.
Finally, Jones was over half the offense that day. He played just fine. Earned his check that day.
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 13:14
by YoHoChecko
I’m enjoying the difference in philosophy being discussed in specifics here.
[mention]go pak go[/mention] has long been of the mindset that we’re not falling short because our star players don’t have enough help/support, but because our star players have routinely come up short in the biggest moments. In essence, our star players don’t play like stars in the playoffs.
[mention]Drj820[/mention] has been in what I think is the more popular camp (though on this board it’s pretty split) that our stars have earned their paycheck, and we fall short because they can’t be expected to do everything. In short, the best opposing teams have the talent to counter our stars, so it’s our supporting casts that have to be better to exploit opposing weak points.
And here, the way they speak of Jones in the playoffs, you see it all come through
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 13:27
by go pak go
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑12 May 2022 13:14
I’m enjoying the difference in philosophy being discussed in specifics here.
@go pak go has long been of the mindset that we’re not falling short because our star players don’t have enough help/support, but because our star players have routinely come up short in the biggest moments. In essence, our star players don’t play like stars in the playoffs.
@Drj820 has been in what I think is the more popular camp (though on this board it’s pretty split) that our stars have earned their paycheck, and we fall short because they can’t be expected to do everything. In short, the best opposing teams have the talent to counter our stars, so it’s our supporting casts that have to be better to exploit opposing weak points.
And here, the way they speak of Jones in the playoffs, you see it all come through
Yeah this has been ongoing for years. It's the fundamental difference between the Lupes, budfoxes and DrJ's of the world compared to the Labrev's, go pak go's, 23packfn, etc. of the world.
I expect my stars to be a star. I expect them to rise up to the occasion. I expect them to rise the tide of the team. I don't put that on the Tyler Lancasters of the world.
So yes. When faced the decision of going with Rashan Gary, the guy who should have made the biggest play of the game (the 4th down stop) or the guy who stutter stepped when the play was there to be made....I'm going Gary.
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 13:52
by YoHoChecko
go pak go wrote: ↑12 May 2022 13:27
Yeah this has been ongoing for years. It's the fundamental difference between the Lupes, budfoxes and DrJ's of the world compared to the Labrev's, go pak go's, 23packfn, etc. of the world.
I expect my stars to be a star. I expect them to rise up to the occasion. I expect them to rise the tide of the team. I don't put that on the Tyler Lancasters of the world.
So yes. When faced the decision of going with Rashan Gary, the guy who should have made the biggest play of the game (the 4th down stop) or the guy who stutter stepped when the play was there to be made....I'm going Gary.
I like to dabble in both pools.
I typically don't expect rotational depth pieces to win games for us, but I certainly can say that Brandon $%&# will never be forgiven.
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 14:02
by Drj820
Not a bad take yoho and I see your point, but my stance has more nuance than that.
In 2020 I actually do blame the stars like adams, Jones, and Rodgers in the NFCCG
In 2021 I 100% blame who I said I would blame all year as I watched the slow motion car wreck time and time again..the special teams.
Some people expect Rodgers to throw to double covered Adams and Lazard in playoff games...as you correctly stated, I think the best defenses can always take away what you do best, and the best teams are more than one trick ponies.
GPG likes to put me in a box, your take was a good point and not unfair...I would just say I have more nuance. In 20, I blame the stars. ‘21...STs.
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 14:28
by go pak go
Drj820 wrote: ↑12 May 2022 14:02
Not a bad take yoho and I see your point, but my stance has more nuance than that.
In 2020 I actually do blame the stars like adams, Jones, and Rodgers in the NFCCG
In 2021 I 100% blame who I said I would blame all year as I watched the slow motion car wreck time and time again..the special teams.
Some people expect Rodgers to throw to double covered Adams and Lazard in playoff games...as you correctly stated, I think the best defenses can always take away what you do best, and the best teams are more than one trick ponies.
GPG likes to put me in a box, your take was a good point and not unfair...I would just say I have more nuance. In 20, I blame the stars. ‘21...STs.
No I actually wanted Rodgers to not throw to double covered Adams because it meant someone else was likely open...and on some key plays...they were
Everyone likes to put everything in a box. Hell your own post has you putting things in a box with the ridiculous "double coverage" comment.
You admitted yourself...you like to toe the line of dramatic language too.
We all do.
But for this particular vote, I just can't put Aaron Jones at #5 ahead of a guy like Gary when Gary is continuing to ascend and did nothing but make play after play in our most important game last year. I think Jones is more like a #7. Difference is actually pretty small, but the playmaking thing and not making the play thing is a big issue for me. Big enough to put Gary at #5 and ahead of Jones.
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 16:01
by Yoop
rarely ever does one player perform perfectly in any game, our star players have always been close to perfect, or close enough that almost any help would have put us over the top, in 2020 we had 5 or 6 dropped passes, so people blame Rodgers for missing a open guy
seriously do you people even bother to read some of your opinions?
Jones runs a route, but he has to contort himself to even make the catch, yet he wasn't able to recover and dance into the EZ, so he sucks, never mind that after Rodgers he was our most productive offensive player.
seems some complain about the few who actually did well, that way they can avoid speaking of the real reasons we lost, ST's players are not rotational Yoho, there mostly full time ST's players, every team has to rely on rotational or back up players, cause guess what, there very best players don't play perfect either, the difference to me is that it's not so much that the stars win the games, it's that the rotational and backup players don't lose it.
which has been the case with several PO losses, ST's putrid blunders, ( $%&#) and young players mis reading there assignments< ( Randall), the stars can not over come these issues, typically the blunders happen near the end of the games and we weren't able to recover.
people that want to blame the stars do so because if they don't then the problems fall to either lack of talent, or lousy coaching, I think everyone would agree with the later, ST's has sucked here for decades, and the defense is finally now improving, it makes no sense to me to blame a couple star player who played near flawlessly when others &%$@ the bed.
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 16:39
by Drj820
Yoop wrote: ↑12 May 2022 16:01
rarely ever does one player perform perfectly in any game, our star players have always been close to perfect, or close enough that almost any help would have put us over the top, in 2020 we had 5 or 6 dropped passes, so people blame Rodgers for missing a open guy
seriously do you people even bother to read some of your opinions?
Jones runs a route, but he has to contort himself to even make the catch, yet he wasn't able to recover and dance into the EZ, so he sucks, never mind that after Rodgers he was our most productive offensive player.
seems some complain about the few who actually did well, that way they can avoid speaking of the real reasons we lost, ST's players are not rotational Yoho, there mostly full time ST's players, every team has to rely on rotational or back up players, cause guess what, there very best players don't play perfect either, the difference to me is that it's not so much that the stars win the games, it's that the rotational and backup players don't lose it.
which has been the case with several PO losses, ST's putrid blunders, ( $%&#) and young players mis reading there assignments< ( Randall), the stars can not over come these issues, typically the blunders happen near the end of the games and we weren't able to recover.
people that want to blame the stars do so because if they don't then the problems fall to either lack of talent, or lousy coaching, I think everyone would agree with the later, ST's has sucked here for decades, and the defense is finally now improving, it makes no sense to me to blame a couple star player who played near flawlessly when others &%$@ the bed.
It’s true. All year there were people afraid to type out the obvious:
No team with STs as atrocious as ours were ever wins the super bowl. It just doesn’t happen.
Doesn’t matter what the O and D could do. In the playoffs the margin of error is too small, the differences between the teams are too small. STs was always going to doom us. Not A Jones losing his footing after having to turn around to catch a pass.
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 17:02
by go pak go
The notion that fans were overlooking ST's and that only a special handful of wise people on this forum saw it coming is absolutely ridiculous.
Literally every poster on this forum said it was time to fire the STs coach by the Bears game at the latest.
Everyone knows the issue of STs. It is pegged as the worst unit in league history. Not last year...history.
But this thread isn't about ST's. This thread is about who is the 5th best Packer. And I think Gary proved himself more impactful and field tilting that Aaron Jones. Gary made the plays when the plays were needed to be made.
Special Teams has nothing to do with this conversation.
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 18:06
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑12 May 2022 17:02
The notion that fans were overlooking ST's and that only a special handful of wise people on this forum saw it coming is absolutely ridiculous.
Literally every poster on this forum said it was time to fire the STs coach by the Bears game at the latest.
Everyone knows the issue of STs. It is pegged as the worst unit in league history. Not last year...history.
But this thread isn't about ST's. This thread is about who is the 5th best Packer. And I think Gary proved himself more impactful and field tilting that Aaron Jones. Gary made the plays when the plays were needed to be made.
Special Teams has nothing to do with this conversation.
well then why continue to look elsewhere for the reasons we lost, you continue to blame our best and over look the obvious, and to say we all know that ST's sucks, yet not lay most of the blame there is what I don't understand, we could find blame with every player,
again Jones was our 3rd most productive offensive player the last 2 years, very possibly #2 this season
my list goes like this.
Rodgers
Jones
Clark
Gary
Alexander
Dillon.
so far.
I've been voting Jones for a week and a half
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 18:18
by go pak go
Yoop wrote: ↑12 May 2022 18:06
go pak go wrote: ↑12 May 2022 17:02
The notion that fans were overlooking ST's and that only a special handful of wise people on this forum saw it coming is absolutely ridiculous.
Literally every poster on this forum said it was time to fire the STs coach by the Bears game at the latest.
Everyone knows the issue of STs. It is pegged as the worst unit in league history. Not last year...history.
But this thread isn't about ST's. This thread is about who is the 5th best Packer. And I think Gary proved himself more impactful and field tilting that Aaron Jones. Gary made the plays when the plays were needed to be made.
Special Teams has nothing to do with this conversation.
we could find blame with every player,
This is the wisest thing you have ever said.
And it is absolutely correct. Every player can and should be evaluated with pluses and minuses.
I absolutely respect your assertion of Jones being the position you want him to be voted in. It's a reasonable assertion. I have mine because I too have been voting for Gary for a week and a half.
I'm just really, really big on Rashan Gary.
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 20:02
by Drj820
I mean Yoop has dominated this debate!
Everyone knew the STs sucked, the difference is that not everyone came to grips with the fact that it was going to cost us a SB in its current form. Some knew, others didn’t recognize.
Yoop is right though that to blame Jones for one “good play that he could have done better” while he accounted for half the offense..all while the STs clearly cost the team the game...is crazy!!!
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 12 May 2022 22:25
by Labrev
Correct, we all knew STs was a big hole, which is why our O and the D had to cover for them with better play for us to go the distance in the playoffs.
The TD given up by our ST was bad, but not insurmountable. Our D stepped up, they did not let up any more points. All our O had to do was top 10 points. Good offenses find a way to put up more than that.
In truth, I don't recall that play by Jones, and he doesn't stand out as a guy who warrants much blame. But the ST letting up plays should not excuse our stars' lack of making any.
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 13 May 2022 05:51
by Drj820
Labrev wrote: ↑12 May 2022 22:25
Correct, we all knew STs was a big hole, which is why our O and the D had to cover for them with better play for us to go the distance in the playoffs.
The TD given up by our ST was bad, but not insurmountable. Our D stepped up, they did not let up any more points. All our O had to do was top 10 points. Good offenses find a way to put up more than that.
In truth, I don't recall that play by Jones, and he doesn't stand out as a guy who warrants much blame. But the ST letting up plays should not excuse our stars' lack of making any.
There has never been a team in nfl history that has made up for such back breaking abysmal STs play with superior O and D and gone on to win a SB. This “overcompensation” method from O and D to offset the awful STs just doesn’t happen in the NFL in the playoffs. It happens a lot against mid grade to bad teams in the regular season, it’s never happened in the playoffs.
It was a mistake to assume our O and D could transcend all historical precedent en route to a SB. Winning a SB is hard enough on its own
Re: Rank the Roster 2022: #5
Posted: 13 May 2022 07:24
by APB
Special teams play in a game long since lost aside, my take on the Gary vs Jones argument is simple: Gary is an ascending, full-time, impact player while Jones is a likely descending (from an opportunity standpoint) albeit still impactful player who will see his role reduced even further with the rise of Dillon.
They're both great players but, at this point, I see greater value in Gary.