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Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 11:08
by Yoop
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 09:02
Scott4Pack wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 08:46
In effect, doesn’t this just kick the can one year down the road? Yeah, we’ll keep AJ in 2023. But they’ll have to renegotiate again next year or release him (WITH a cap hit).
I’m not a fan of the phantom years on contracts as that creates a snowball to avalanche that’ll be hard to overcome.
It just doesnt make sense. We arent a SB team next year with or without Rodgers so why not just tear down and rebuild. Last years draft class was a step in the right direction in getting this team cap under control but all we are doing is holding on for dear life to be competitive enough to win a division but not enough to make any real noise. Gutenbumst has to know hes on the hotseat after years of atrocious decision making is doing his best Ryan Pace impression to keep his job.
some day it's going to dawn on you that the Packers are not so narrow minded that they focus on just winning SB's, but rather focus on winning and making the play offs first and fore most each season, cause thats how you get to the SB, it's a simple concept, anything can and often does happen if ya do that
Jones is one chess piece to get that done
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 11:18
by lupedafiasco
Yoop wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:08
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 09:02
Scott4Pack wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 08:46
In effect, doesn’t this just kick the can one year down the road? Yeah, we’ll keep AJ in 2023. But they’ll have to renegotiate again next year or release him (WITH a cap hit).
I’m not a fan of the phantom years on contracts as that creates a snowball to avalanche that’ll be hard to overcome.
It just doesnt make sense. We arent a SB team next year with or without Rodgers so why not just tear down and rebuild. Last years draft class was a step in the right direction in getting this team cap under control but all we are doing is holding on for dear life to be competitive enough to win a division but not enough to make any real noise. Gutenbumst has to know hes on the hotseat after years of atrocious decision making is doing his best Ryan Pace impression to keep his job.
some day it's going to dawn on you that the Packers are not so narrow minded that they focus on just winning SB's, but rather focus on winning and making the play offs first and fore most each season, cause thats how you get to the SB, it's a simple concept, anything can and often does happen if ya do that
Jones is one chess piece to get that done
I’ve literally said for years the Packers aren’t interested in winning the SB. To them it seems like if it happens cool but their priority is to just be good enough to satisfy a passive fan base.
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 11:20
by Yoop
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 10:31
APB wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 09:46
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 09:02
It just doesnt make sense. We arent a SB team next year with or without Rodgers so why not just tear down and rebuild. Last years draft class was a step in the right direction in getting this team cap under control but all we are doing is holding on for dear life to be competitive enough to win a division but not enough to make any real noise. Gutenbumst has to know hes on the hotseat after years of atrocious decision making is doing his best Ryan Pace impression to keep his job.
You have this really weird obsession with tanking.
This has nothing to do with tanking. I have said this for 3 or 4 years now. The Packers need to take their medicine, have a 2 year plan, and swallow their dead cap and bad contracts. Long term that will solve the problems with the cap and ultimately the talent problem with this team. Last year we carried $32M in dead cap. This year we are staring down $17M in dead cap from voided contracts not including what may happen with Rodgers.
if anyone has a weird obsession it’s Packers fans. We saw this during the TT era. Bad drafts led to a huge talent gap and cap struggles and we couldn’t compete with the rest of the league. Packers fans are just too stupid to see what’s happening in front of them.
you and others worry more about the cap then the team does, half the league is carrying dead money, and we just reduced ours with this renogociation with Jones.
you didn't want to resign him in the first place, and he made a fool out of you and everyone that took your position, and he'll probably do it again this season, ya pay for production, thats it, and it doesn't matter what position they play.
and Skeptic your so out in left field with your comments concerning Rodgers, if we keep him it without a doubt is because we intend to shoot for the PO's and a chance to win it all.
some of the comments you make are preposterous.
was that nicer Moderator?
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 11:26
by Yoop
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:18
Yoop wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:08
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 09:02
It just doesnt make sense. We arent a SB team next year with or without Rodgers so why not just tear down and rebuild. Last years draft class was a step in the right direction in getting this team cap under control but all we are doing is holding on for dear life to be competitive enough to win a division but not enough to make any real noise. Gutenbumst has to know hes on the hotseat after years of atrocious decision making is doing his best Ryan Pace impression to keep his job.
some day it's going to dawn on you that the Packers are not so narrow minded that they focus on just winning SB's, but rather focus on winning and making the play offs first and fore most each season, cause thats how you get to the SB, it's a simple concept, anything can and often does happen if ya do that
Jones is one chess piece to get that done
I’ve literally said for years the Packers aren’t interested in winning the SB. To them it seems like if it happens cool but their priority is to just be good enough to satisfy a passive fan base.
and thats hog manure, you act like your the only person that knows this stuff, it's fine to dislike what the team does, but for you to think you know more about what it takes to win a championship is bull, you simply refuse to consider all the limitations a GM has, teams that sell the farm to win rarely do, and they create a far bigger hole then either Ted or Brian have, I don't like everything they do either, but I'am not so short sighted to think there focus is not to win, come on.
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 11:31
by go pak go
The dead cap doesn't really mean much in this situation. Even in a "rebuild" it doesn't mean much unless we use the freed up assets to "go all in" again. This is just opening up flexibility of when we need to recognize the dead cap which is very important for a rebuild time.
Overall, Jones took $5 million less in cash which means overall the Packers get to keep Jones for $5 million less. Our future dead cap will be larger but that is because we are freeing up an extra $7 million this year. Yes it stinks our future dead cap is higher, but it's also good because it adds flexibility in the 2023 offseason to absorb Rodgers cap hit in a Pre June 1 trade. (also keep in mind we can roll forward 2023 cap into 2024 so it only adds flexibility at this point)
The Packers had to free up 2023 cap space. This was a good first step. We eliminate $5 million completely and kicked another $7 million down the road.
Overall a great move. The only time lupe I would start screaming is if we do additional moves after this to try and keep the ole band together for another year.
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 11:36
by lupedafiasco
Yoop wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:20
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 10:31
APB wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 09:46
You have this really weird obsession with tanking.
This has nothing to do with tanking. I have said this for 3 or 4 years now. The Packers need to take their medicine, have a 2 year plan, and swallow their dead cap and bad contracts. Long term that will solve the problems with the cap and ultimately the talent problem with this team. Last year we carried $32M in dead cap. This year we are staring down $17M in dead cap from voided contracts not including what may happen with Rodgers.
if anyone has a weird obsession it’s Packers fans. We saw this during the TT era. Bad drafts led to a huge talent gap and cap struggles and we couldn’t compete with the rest of the league. Packers fans are just too stupid to see what’s happening in front of them.
you and others worry more about the cap then the team does, half the league is carrying dead money, and we just reduced ours with this renogociation with Jones.
you didn't want to resign him in the first place, and he made a fool out of you and everyone that took your position, and he'll probably do it again this season, ya pay for production, thats it, and it doesn't matter what position they play.
and Skeptic your so out in left field with your comments concerning Rodgers, if we keep him it without a doubt is because we intend to shoot for the PO's and a chance to win it all.
some of the comments you make are preposterous.
was that nicer Moderator?
He hasn’t been worth the money based on his production IMO. I’ll stand by that. Great player but not worth the resources invested in him or Dillon.
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 11:44
by Yoop
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:36
Yoop wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:20
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 10:31
This has nothing to do with tanking. I have said this for 3 or 4 years now. The Packers need to take their medicine, have a 2 year plan, and swallow their dead cap and bad contracts. Long term that will solve the problems with the cap and ultimately the talent problem with this team. Last year we carried $32M in dead cap. This year we are staring down $17M in dead cap from voided contracts not including what may happen with Rodgers.
if anyone has a weird obsession it’s Packers fans. We saw this during the TT era. Bad drafts led to a huge talent gap and cap struggles and we couldn’t compete with the rest of the league. Packers fans are just too stupid to see what’s happening in front of them.
you and others worry more about the cap then the team does, half the league is carrying dead money, and we just reduced ours with this renogociation with Jones.
you didn't want to resign him in the first place, and he made a fool out of you and everyone that took your position, and he'll probably do it again this season, ya pay for production, thats it, and it doesn't matter what position they play.
and Skeptic your so out in left field with your comments concerning Rodgers, if we keep him it without a doubt is because we intend to shoot for the PO's and a chance to win it all.
some of the comments you make are preposterous.
was that nicer Moderator?
He hasn’t been worth the money based on his production IMO. I’ll stand by that. Great player but not worth the resources invested in him or Dillon.
what? Jones has provided well over a 1000 yrds every season for the last 4 years, he earns less then a average WR, you'll stand alone, no one is going to agree with you, your comment isn't even reasonable.
again production opens the wallet, your going off the idea that any ol cheap RB is good enough, but Jones has not been any ol RB.
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 11:47
by go pak go
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:36
Yoop wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:20
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 10:31
This has nothing to do with tanking. I have said this for 3 or 4 years now. The Packers need to take their medicine, have a 2 year plan, and swallow their dead cap and bad contracts. Long term that will solve the problems with the cap and ultimately the talent problem with this team. Last year we carried $32M in dead cap. This year we are staring down $17M in dead cap from voided contracts not including what may happen with Rodgers.
if anyone has a weird obsession it’s Packers fans. We saw this during the TT era. Bad drafts led to a huge talent gap and cap struggles and we couldn’t compete with the rest of the league. Packers fans are just too stupid to see what’s happening in front of them.
you and others worry more about the cap then the team does, half the league is carrying dead money, and we just reduced ours with this renogociation with Jones.
you didn't want to resign him in the first place, and he made a fool out of you and everyone that took your position, and he'll probably do it again this season, ya pay for production, thats it, and it doesn't matter what position they play.
and Skeptic your so out in left field with your comments concerning Rodgers, if we keep him it without a doubt is because we intend to shoot for the PO's and a chance to win it all.
some of the comments you make are preposterous.
was that nicer Moderator?
He hasn’t been worth the money based on his production IMO. I’ll stand by that. Great player but not worth the resources invested in him or Dillon.
I think there is a valid argument here. Jones hasn't been used enough and also unfortunately has disappeared a lot during big games. I could see the argument we would have been better served using the money to buy a more reliable #2 WR rather than Aaron Jones for 2021 and 2022.
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 11:51
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:31
The dead cap doesn't really mean much in this situation. Even in a "rebuild" it doesn't mean much unless we use the freed up assets to "go all in" again. This is just opening up flexibility of when we need to recognize the dead cap which is very important for a rebuild time.
Overall, Jones took $5 million less in cash which means overall the Packers get to keep Jones for $5 million less. Our future dead cap will be larger but that is because we are freeing up an extra $7 million this year. Yes it stinks our future dead cap is higher, but it's also good because it adds flexibility in the 2023 offseason to absorb Rodgers cap hit in a Pre June 1 trade. (also keep in mind we can roll forward 2023 cap into 2024 so it only adds flexibility at this point)
The Packers had to free up 2023 cap space. This was a good first step. We eliminate $5 million completely and kicked another $7 million down the road.
Overall a great move. The only time lupe I would start screaming is if we do additional moves after this to try and keep the ole band together for another year.
even in 08 or 09 we didn't sell the farm to win, this all in thing you talk of in my memory has never really happened, yes we retool a position here and there all the time, but we havn't done a recent Ram, or a few years back Eagles attempt to win it all, the Rams succeeded and are now in cap hell, and likely not to win again till your first born is in grade school
and the Eagles sucked for years after too.
our plan seems to be, to be the best we can be every season, hoping lady luck will be kind, we make the PO's, and we'll prevail, that we have not shouldn't cause us to ever change that plan.
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 11:56
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:47
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:36
Yoop wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:20
you and others worry more about the cap then the team does, half the league is carrying dead money, and we just reduced ours with this renogociation with Jones.
you didn't want to resign him in the first place, and he made a fool out of you and everyone that took your position, and he'll probably do it again this season, ya pay for production, thats it, and it doesn't matter what position they play.
and Skeptic your so out in left field with your comments concerning Rodgers, if we keep him it without a doubt is because we intend to shoot for the PO's and a chance to win it all.
some of the comments you make are preposterous.
was that nicer Moderator?
He hasn’t been worth the money based on his production IMO. I’ll stand by that. Great player but not worth the resources invested in him or Dillon.
I think there is a valid argument here. Jones hasn't been used enough and also unfortunately has disappeared a lot during big games. I could see the argument we would have been better served using the money to buy a more reliable #2 WR rather than Aaron Jones for 2021 and 2022.
oh so now it's a either or scenario, what you wont do to defend not having both, Jones contract was never the reason we didn't improve the WR position sooner then last year.
my god I can't believe some of the comments in this forum to defend some of the poor decisions by our GM, one of the best decisions he ever made was to resign Jones, and he had over a 135 yrds in that PO loss a couple years ago
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 12:03
by go pak go
Yoop wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:51
go pak go wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:31
The dead cap doesn't really mean much in this situation. Even in a "rebuild" it doesn't mean much unless we use the freed up assets to "go all in" again. This is just opening up flexibility of when we need to recognize the dead cap which is very important for a rebuild time.
Overall, Jones took $5 million less in cash which means overall the Packers get to keep Jones for $5 million less. Our future dead cap will be larger but that is because we are freeing up an extra $7 million this year. Yes it stinks our future dead cap is higher, but it's also good because it adds flexibility in the 2023 offseason to absorb Rodgers cap hit in a Pre June 1 trade. (also keep in mind we can roll forward 2023 cap into 2024 so it only adds flexibility at this point)
The Packers had to free up 2023 cap space. This was a good first step. We eliminate $5 million completely and kicked another $7 million down the road.
Overall a great move. The only time lupe I would start screaming is if we do additional moves after this to try and keep the ole band together for another year.
even in 08 or 09 we didn't sell the farm to win, this all in thing you talk of in my memory has never really happened, yes we retool a position here and there all the time, but we havn't done a recent Ram, or a few years back Eagles attempt to win it all, the Rams succeeded and are now in cap hell, and likely not to win again till your first born is in grade school
and the Eagles sucked for years after too.
our plan seems to be, to be the best we can be every season, hoping lady luck will be kind, we make the PO's, and we'll prevail, that we have not shouldn't cause us to ever change that plan.
Trying to compare how we do things now to 2008 or 2009 (which I think you mean 2010) is not a fair comparison because the CBA and cap rules at that time are completely different than they are now. You could not roll unlimited cap in that era. You can now.
So cap management is completely different than it was at that time. TT was notorious for front loading contracts at that time and it made perfect sense to do so. Now with unlimited cap rolling....it makes sense to backload contracts.
I don't see any stock of comparing now to then.
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 12:13
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 12:03
Yoop wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:51
go pak go wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:31
The dead cap doesn't really mean much in this situation. Even in a "rebuild" it doesn't mean much unless we use the freed up assets to "go all in" again. This is just opening up flexibility of when we need to recognize the dead cap which is very important for a rebuild time.
Overall, Jones took $5 million less in cash which means overall the Packers get to keep Jones for $5 million less. Our future dead cap will be larger but that is because we are freeing up an extra $7 million this year. Yes it stinks our future dead cap is higher, but it's also good because it adds flexibility in the 2023 offseason to absorb Rodgers cap hit in a Pre June 1 trade. (also keep in mind we can roll forward 2023 cap into 2024 so it only adds flexibility at this point)
The Packers had to free up 2023 cap space. This was a good first step. We eliminate $5 million completely and kicked another $7 million down the road.
Overall a great move. The only time lupe I would start screaming is if we do additional moves after this to try and keep the ole band together for another year.
even in 08 or 09 we didn't sell the farm to win, this all in thing you talk of in my memory has never really happened, yes we retool a position here and there all the time, but we havn't done a recent Ram, or a few years back Eagles attempt to win it all, the Rams succeeded and are now in cap hell, and likely not to win again till your first born is in grade school
and the Eagles sucked for years after too.
our plan seems to be, to be the best we can be every season, hoping lady luck will be kind, we make the PO's, and we'll prevail, that we have not shouldn't cause us to ever change that plan.
Trying to compare how we do things now to 2008 or 2009 (which I think you mean 2010) is not a fair comparison because the CBA and cap rules at that time are completely different than they are now. You could not roll unlimited cap in that era. You can now.
So cap management is completely different than it was at that time. TT was notorious for front loading contracts at that time and it made perfect sense to do so. Now with unlimited cap rolling....it makes sense to backload contracts.
I don't see any stock of comparing now to then.
I don't see why you think those changes matter? it wont change us from simply trying to keep players and continue to focus on winning each and every year, of course we'll lose players, we always have as there contract demands and decline in play change, my point remains, these whole house rebuilds didn't happen then, and I don't expect that to happen now.
the changes I was referring to was firing Bob Sanders, installing Capers and a 34 scheme and then the drafting of Raji and Mathews, that was a big change, but far from a total rebuild, we retained Kampman and others another year or so.
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 12:36
by go pak go
Yoop wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 12:13
go pak go wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 12:03
Yoop wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:51
even in 08 or 09 we didn't sell the farm to win, this all in thing you talk of in my memory has never really happened, yes we retool a position here and there all the time, but we havn't done a recent Ram, or a few years back Eagles attempt to win it all, the Rams succeeded and are now in cap hell, and likely not to win again till your first born is in grade school
and the Eagles sucked for years after too.
our plan seems to be, to be the best we can be every season, hoping lady luck will be kind, we make the PO's, and we'll prevail, that we have not shouldn't cause us to ever change that plan.
Trying to compare how we do things now to 2008 or 2009 (which I think you mean 2010) is not a fair comparison because the CBA and cap rules at that time are completely different than they are now. You could not roll unlimited cap in that era. You can now.
So cap management is completely different than it was at that time. TT was notorious for front loading contracts at that time and it made perfect sense to do so. Now with unlimited cap rolling....it makes sense to backload contracts.
I don't see any stock of comparing now to then.
I don't see why you think those changes matter? it wont change us from simply trying to keep players and continue to focus on winning each and every year, of course we'll lose players, we always have as there contract demands and decline in play change, my point remains, these whole house rebuilds didn't happen then, and I don't expect that to happen now.
the changes I was referring to was firing Bob Sanders, installing Capers and a 34 scheme and then the drafting of Raji and Mathews, that was a big change, but far from a total rebuild, we retained Kampman and others another year or so.
ya lost me yoop. I don't know where you're going with this.
I bid you adieu.
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 12:41
by BSA
go pak go wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 11:47
I could see the argument we would have been better served using the money to buy a more reliable #2 WR rather than Aaron Jones for 2021 and 2022.
I would disagree with that argument.
Giving Jones 12-15 touches per game is vastly more valuable than giving those same touches to a # 2 WR. Jones is a playmaker AND he influences the defense in a myriad of ways- including playing wide as a WR or running routes from the backfield. He's a mismatch in the run and pass and has been a huge boost to the Packers entire offense - which is built off the outside zone that Jones excels at. He's a smaller guy, so MLF is gonna manage his snaps so he's available in the playoffs. That's just being smart.
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 13:17
by jglovia
I'm happy to see him back. Big part of the offense and, like others have said, just a great guy! I remember working a game and he saw a family with a sign that said "we drove all the way from Mexico to see Aaron Jones" and he had me hold his helmet while he signed thier baby's onesie lol was a fun moment
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 13:48
by Drj820
Even if we move on from Rodgers, we still need some good players for Love to play with lol
A few good players would help in the evaluation process.
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 14:09
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 12:36
Yoop wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 12:13
go pak go wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 12:03
Trying to compare how we do things now to 2008 or 2009 (which I think you mean 2010) is not a fair comparison because the CBA and cap rules at that time are completely different than they are now. You could not roll unlimited cap in that era. You can now.
So cap management is completely different than it was at that time. TT was notorious for front loading contracts at that time and it made perfect sense to do so. Now with unlimited cap rolling....it makes sense to backload contracts.
I don't see any stock of comparing now to then.
I don't see why you think those changes matter? it wont change us from simply trying to keep players and continue to focus on winning each and every year, of course we'll lose players, we always have as there contract demands and decline in play change, my point remains, these whole house rebuilds didn't happen then, and I don't expect that to happen now.
the changes I was referring to was firing Bob Sanders, installing Capers and a 34 scheme and then the drafting of Raji and Mathews, that was a big change, but far from a total rebuild, we retained Kampman and others another year or so.
ya lost me yoop. I don't know where you're going with this.
I bid you adieu.
you lost me because I wont cave to your opinion, yes run back to that other forum where others will
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 14:18
by go pak go
Yoop wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 14:09
go pak go wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 12:36
Yoop wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 12:13
I don't see why you think those changes matter? it wont change us from simply trying to keep players and continue to focus on winning each and every year, of course we'll lose players, we always have as there contract demands and decline in play change, my point remains, these whole house rebuilds didn't happen then, and I don't expect that to happen now.
the changes I was referring to was firing Bob Sanders, installing Capers and a 34 scheme and then the drafting of Raji and Mathews, that was a big change, but far from a total rebuild, we retained Kampman and others another year or so.
ya lost me yoop. I don't know where you're going with this.
I bid you adieu.
you lost me because I wont cave to your opinion, yes run back to that other forum where others will
That is where you lost me. I didn't share an opinion.
I only shared math. My posts weren't an editorial. It was simply explaining the Aaron Jones cap impacts between this year and the future.
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 14:27
by BSA
Just came across this one, pretty cool graphic with Jones really standing out
Rushing yards over expected vs EPA
https://imgur.com/STPgdrr
Re: Aaron Jones to Return To Green Bay in 23
Posted: 17 Feb 2023 14:35
by go pak go
BSA wrote: ↑17 Feb 2023 14:27
Just came across this one, pretty cool graphic with Jones really standing out
Rushing yards over expected vs EPA
https://imgur.com/STPgdrr
Not surprising at all. Aaron Jones is simply one of the best runners I have ever seen create something out of nothing. He is so freaking quick.