The Rebuild

[RingoCStarrQB]

Packers fans always want to hold the DC accountable for the failing defense. Never the HC who is responsible for the Defense, or the GM who is responsible for picking the players.

The Org has spent tremendous resources on the defense, at the direct expense of the offense....so you tell me:

Is it the players (a gm problem) or the HC (a problem of hiring a bad coach)

Hey. Please watch you use of the term "always". In the grand scheme of the Packers the buck stops at Mark Murphy. Then percolates down through Gutey (GM) and LaCoach (HC).

At this point it's mostly the HC, and all of his assistant coaches. They seem to be incapable of providing the leadership and management necessary to compete at this level. GM has done his part to mess this up as well .............. but its mostly the HC.

Really? Trading away two of the best players in franchise history in back to back seasons because they said they’d never play for you again are on the HC?

Awesome job of killin' it now. Keep it up. Look how well The Mad Stork did when he left the Packers and joined the Raiders.

[Cdragon]

Hey. Please watch you use of the term "always". In the grand scheme of the Packers the buck stops at Mark Murphy. Then percolates down through Gutey (GM) and LaCoach (HC).

At this point it's mostly the HC, and all of his assistant coaches. They seem to be incapable of providing the leadership and management necessary to compete at this level. GM has done his part to mess this up as well .............. but its mostly the HC.

Really? Trading away two of the best players in franchise history in back to back seasons because they said they’d never play for you again are on the HC?

Awesome job of killin' it now. Keep it up. Look how well The Mad Stork did when he left the Packers and joined the Raiders.

Ted Hendricks was an AP before us with the Colts, AP with us for one glorious year, and AP after us with the Raiders. He was going to run from us in any case.

[Pugger]

The core of the rebuild I want is to focus on being tough and big in the trenches.

I want to prioritize stopping the run and running the ball.

I actually think we have the players to do it on defense. And we even drafted the larger center on offense.

Overall, I don't think we are far away. Get a LT and RG and a new attitude and this squad is fine.

How we lot a month ago was concerning. How we lost yesterday is not.

the concerning part of yesterday is that we played against another low tier QB, and instead of dialing up pass rush, Barry opted for coverage and his patented light front, basically saying to Pitts. " I dare you to run on us" and they did, again, and again, and again.

obviously Campbell is now a shadow of who he was when we brought him aboard, and minus Alexander and Savage we have to play very inexperienced backups, which is obviously why Barry chose coverage over pass rush and heavy front, imo base front would have helped two fold, better pass rush would have helped coverage and also helped stop the run, Barry is a train wreck of a DC, just as I'am starting to think Lafleur is a better OC then a HC.

I agree, get bigger in the trenches, mostly though just OL, we need road graders that can also pass pro, our run blocking is to inconsistent, we've spent so much on DL already, better result from them is to use 3 versus 2, but in order to accomplish that we need better ability from our edge dropper, Smith is to slow at it.

I think we also should find a replacement for Jones, he might not be all washed up yet, but he looks close, and he can't seem to stay healthy.

Yes, with such inexperienced backups in the secondary why in the hell did Barry choose coverage over pass rush? Why do we allow RBs to run roughshod over us? We all rail over our inept DC but IMO MLF is culpable too for our defensive issues by keeping Barry around.

[bud fox]

Our players are also the problem for losing their battles.

Players are the primary reason we are 3-6. They play the game. People say bellichek goat coach but look at pats now. Rams won a Sb recently look at them now.

Our players are the problem and that's Gutes problem.

Gute is the problem. Rebuild time.

[musclestang]

So does that mean the Rams and Bellichick just got lucky with the right players? Bill has been picking players forever over there, did he forget how to build a team? and don't tell me it was brady, because the minute that Bucs roster wasn't absolutely $%@# stacked, he didn't win &%$@ either.

There are ebbs and flows, peaks and valleys, ups and downs, a natural cycle of things whatever you want to call it. Expecting this team to never miss a beat in this process is silly.

I'm not saying i've been happy with their performance all year. This past Sunday was more of what I expected out of them and not the haphazard garbage we had been seeing, but if they keep more consistent like last game, I think this is pretty much on schedule. I don't think we have much wrong with our players other than they're injured too often.

[CWIMM]

i'm fine with the players and the work of the GM as a whole.

In my opinion there are two main issues with the team right now. Gutekunst has done a good job of putting together a talented defense but Barry isn't capable of getting them to perform up to potential. Therefore the Packers should hire another defensive coordinator entering next season.

Unfortunately the GM hasn't come close to doing as well on the offensive side of the ball. As I have mentioned repeatedly if Love doesn't work out that should be enough for Gutekunst to be fired.

Packers currently have a record of 3-6 with the easiest schedule in the NFL.

The Packers opponents so far this season have a combined winning percentage of .500. There are 13 teams which have had an easier schedule so far.

[RingoCStarrQB]

Getting 9 wins this year would be miraculous.

[lupedafiasco]

i'm fine with the players and the work of the GM as a whole.

In my opinion there are two main issues with the team right now. Gutekunst has done a good job of putting together a talented defense but Barry isn't capable of getting them to perform up to potential. Therefore the Packers should hire another defensive coordinator entering next season.

Unfortunately the GM hasn't come close to doing as well on the offensive side of the ball. As I have mentioned repeatedly if Love doesn't work out that should be enough for Gutekunst to be fired.

Packers currently have a record of 3-6 with the easiest schedule in the NFL.

The Packers opponents so far this season have a combined winning percentage of .500. There are 13 teams which have had an easier schedule so far.

What about the defense makes you feel like it’s a talented group? There’s a ton of highly invested draft capital but that doesn’t automatically mean they’re good players.

[Yoop]

i'm fine with the players and the work of the GM as a whole.

In my opinion there are two main issues with the team right now. Gutekunst has done a good job of putting together a talented defense but Barry isn't capable of getting them to perform up to potential. Therefore the Packers should hire another defensive coordinator entering next season.

Unfortunately the GM hasn't come close to doing as well on the offensive side of the ball. As I have mentioned repeatedly if Love doesn't work out that should be enough for Gutekunst to be fired.

Packers currently have a record of 3-6 with the easiest schedule in the NFL.

The Packers opponents so far this season have a combined winning percentage of .500. There are 13 teams which have had an easier schedule so far.

What about the defense makes you feel like it’s a talented group? There’s a ton of highly invested draft capital but that doesn’t automatically mean they’re good players.

Walker, Gary, Clark, Wyatt, Slayton, Brooks, Wooden, Smith, Savage, Alexander, Douglas ( now stupidly traded), Valentine, all have played well enough at times this season for me to see the group is far better then any we've had the last decade, and better then there coach has allowed them to be.

this is a great example of why using your best resources to build a great defense is fools gold, to many variables work against it, for one it only takes one bad player at 1 of the 3 levels, (DL, ILB, secondary) to be picked apart by opposing offenses, we know this to be true because we watch that play out in every game we watch.

the best way to win in this league is the tried and true method of putting up more points then the other team, and ya do that by having a great QB and a stable of quality skill position players, now ya can do some of that with a great run blocking OL and a couple great RB's, but run blocking is harder then pass pro, so that means higher investment for run blocking talent.
so imho ya load up offense, and simply strive to have a little better defensive talent then Capers had after 2011, this idea that ya have to have a top 5 defense to me is unrealistic, and we've had good enough talent to be that, unless you have a cord that can max out that talent, this is what ya get.

[Labrev]

this is a great example of why using your best resources to build a great defense is fools gold,

No it isn't many teams fielding good defenses with less than what we have, all you need is good talent (check) and decent coaching. If Matty had just made the right call and went with Evero over Barry, the investments would be paying dividends for us; we would have a top defense.

[go pak go]

Wasn't the 2011 defense largely the exact same as the 2010 defense for the exception of no Cullen Jenkins? Nick Collins was also hurt in 2011 but 2010 also saw an enormous amount of injuries.

Sometimes you just lose. The Packers did the "offense model" from 2011 - 2014 and have 0 rings to show for it. We only won it when the defense showed up big in the postseason. And we even had years where the defense showed up big and still lost.

Most of the time you just lose. I have said it multiple times that 2010 was probably the 3rd or 4th best team after 1997 and yet funnily enough is the year we won it.

[Drj820]

the problem with the defense is draft philosophy.

The guys that were dogs in college are still dogs in the NFL: Basically guys like Jaire and even Quay.

But for years the packers have drafted raw talent that they project to be able to develop. These are guys that even though they had crazy amounts of talent, they STILL under produced in college. Gary is a good example.

I got news for you, if you werent a dog in college, you aint gonna be a dog in the NFL.

We got too many guys with premiere measurables who arent football players.

[Labrev]

the problem with the defense is draft philosophy.

The guys that were dogs in college are still dogs in the NFL: Basically guys like Jaire and even Quay.

But for years the packers have drafted raw talent that they project to be able to develop. These are guys that even though they had crazy amounts of talent, they STILL under produced in college. Gary is a good example.

.... your example is, the best player on this team?

[Drj820]

the problem with the defense is draft philosophy.

The guys that were dogs in college are still dogs in the NFL: Basically guys like Jaire and even Quay.

But for years the packers have drafted raw talent that they project to be able to develop. These are guys that even though they had crazy amounts of talent, they STILL under produced in college. Gary is a good example.

.... your example is, the best player on this team?

He is a perfect example of the draft philosophy. Low production in college, great measurables, years to develop.
Toss up outcome.

[Yoop]

the problem with the defense is draft philosophy.

The guys that were dogs in college are still dogs in the NFL: Basically guys like Jaire and even Quay.

But for years the packers have drafted raw talent that they project to be able to develop. These are guys that even though they had crazy amounts of talent, they STILL under produced in college. Gary is a good example.

.... your example is, the best player on this team?

is he, he has a bunch of wow plays, has good pressure numbers, only 4.5 sacks, and has been to often a liability in run defense, Alexander has been out best D pick in the Guty era jmo.

[Drj820]

nobody wants to say it out loud, so i guess I will have to be the forum bad guy once again:

Rashan Gary has been a ghost since signing his big deal.

[Yoop]

Wasn't the 2011 defense largely the exact same as the 2010 defense for the exception of no Cullen Jenkins? Nick Collins was also hurt in 2011 but 2010 also saw an enormous amount of injuries.

Sometimes you just lose. The Packers did the "offense model" from 2011 - 2014 and have 0 rings to show for it. We only won it when the defense showed up big in the postseason. And we even had years where the defense showed up big and still lost.

Most of the time you just lose. I have said it multiple times that 2010 was probably the 3rd or 4th best team after 1997 and yet funnily enough is the year we won it.

you just eliminated two key losses from the 2010 squad, again lose one key player from what was a great defense, and it becomes a shadow of it's former self, didn't we also lose Shields? either way lis, any weak position is quickly attacked.

our problems with 2011 forward is the defense always had weak positions every year, whole position groups void completely of starting caliber talent, I think that happened two seasons with CB, arguably the most important position on defense with edge rusher, look how many games we went in that decade with minimal talent there.

those 09 and 010 defenses where stocked, not just starters, but backups too, as you saw 010 SB was won minus starters, Ted and Capers did a great job assembling and using them.

all we needed from defense was a little better health and a few better draft picks and those offenses could have carried the day, even then though ST's was the culprit for the losses in several PO games.

[Labrev]

nobody wants to say it out loud, so i guess I will have to be the forum bad guy once again:

Rashan Gary has been a ghost since signing his big deal.

I was actually hoping someone would say this, so that I would say THIS : (1) it's been two games; (2) upon review, Gary drew extra attention from the opposing offenses we faced, especially PIT, which still benefits the defense because it takes pressure off of others i.e. makes it easier to make a play.

[Labrev]

He is a perfect example of the draft philosophy. Low production in college, great measurables,

Good. College production is the most worthless part of the eval process, because college football is dominated by guys who don't have the athleticism to hack it in the pros anyway, which is why countless JAGs like Amari Rodgers have been successful at it, or for that matter, guys with superior athletic talent that have no feel for the game like Stephone Anthony. If production weeded out hits from busts, they would not bother with athletic testing.

What actually matters is if a guy's game can translate to the pro level, and athleticism is the thing that primarily weeds that out. On that note, name one elite NFL player who is not an athletic freak, then tell me if you still want "football players" like Amari Rodgers, Josh Jackson, etc.

Toss up outcome.

Not even close.

You are now doing what you recently accused others (incorrectly) of doing vis-a-vis Rodgers.

[Labrev]

is he, he has a bunch of wow plays, has good pressure numbers, only 4.5 sacks,

We are at the halfway mark and he was on a pitch count for most of the first half, coming off of an ACL injury. Our last couple guys coming off of the ACL looked like a shell of themselves or were not even playing by this point. I have no clue how you can complain about 4.5 sacks with like eight more games to go.

and has been to often a liability in run defense,

He is not a "liability" in the run defense, not in the sense that he is unable to hold up against it and you can run at him for guaranteed success like Z. He just needs to be more consistent in keeping contain and getting the stop (which been better lately than the beginning of the season).