Packers Huddle

texas wrote: ↑

22 Dec 2023 19:10

Idk. If we win out then that means we probably make playoffs on a bit of a hot streak. I think if this team plays up to its ceiling then we can hang with anyone. I think the smart money would be to lose out and get a new DC, but I don't think I could bring myself to do that, so I voted for win out and retain Barry.

I'm on everyone else's side now about firing Barry, but it's probably somewhat likely that we end up with a downgrade at DC because we never can seem to get a good one. As it stands, I think Barry has probably been our best DC since idk before Bob Sanders? But I would still roll the dice at this point.

Love the post, but there is not way there is a downgrade from Barry. I'll guarantee that. As much as I lambasted Dom, Barry is so stuck in his scheme he disregards everything.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

22 Dec 2023 20:01

texas wrote: ↑

22 Dec 2023 19:10

Idk. If we win out then that means we probably make playoffs on a bit of a hot streak. I think if this team plays up to its ceiling then we can hang with anyone. I think the smart money would be to lose out and get a new DC, but I don't think I could bring myself to do that, so I voted for win out and retain Barry.

I'm on everyone else's side now about firing Barry, but it's probably somewhat likely that we end up with a downgrade at DC because we never can seem to get a good one. As it stands, I think Barry has probably been our best DC since idk before Bob Sanders? But I would still roll the dice at this point.

Love the post, but there is not way there is a downgrade from Barry. I'll guarantee that. As much as I lambasted Dom, Barry is so stuck in his scheme he disregards everything.

How do you rank Dom, Pettine, Sanders, and Barry?

I guess I could make a case for pretty much any order of those 4. Maybe not Sanders in the top spot. Dom did have a top defense and we won the SB with him, but the rest of his tenure was just so bad that he could also arguably be the worst of the 4.

texas wrote: ↑

22 Dec 2023 22:45

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

22 Dec 2023 20:01

texas wrote: ↑

22 Dec 2023 19:10

Idk. If we win out then that means we probably make playoffs on a bit of a hot streak. I think if this team plays up to its ceiling then we can hang with anyone. I think the smart money would be to lose out and get a new DC, but I don't think I could bring myself to do that, so I voted for win out and retain Barry.

I'm on everyone else's side now about firing Barry, but it's probably somewhat likely that we end up with a downgrade at DC because we never can seem to get a good one. As it stands, I think Barry has probably been our best DC since idk before Bob Sanders? But I would still roll the dice at this point.

Love the post, but there is not way there is a downgrade from Barry. I'll guarantee that. As much as I lambasted Dom, Barry is so stuck in his scheme he disregards everything.

How do you rank Dom, Pettine, Sanders, and Barry?

I guess I could make a case for pretty much any order of those 4. Maybe not Sanders in the top spot. Dom did have a top defense and we won the SB with him, but the rest of his tenure was just so bad that he could also arguably be the worst of the 4.

I think it’s exactly as you listed them. There was nothing wrong with Dom. Toward the end of his tenure the defensive roster was so bad he had to take the fall before the lesser educated, and by that I mean retarded, fans could catch on and realize that TT was the real problem.

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 00:12

texas wrote: ↑

22 Dec 2023 22:45

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

22 Dec 2023 20:01

Love the post, but there is not way there is a downgrade from Barry. I'll guarantee that. As much as I lambasted Dom, Barry is so stuck in his scheme he disregards everything.

How do you rank Dom, Pettine, Sanders, and Barry?

I guess I could make a case for pretty much any order of those 4. Maybe not Sanders in the top spot. Dom did have a top defense and we won the SB with him, but the rest of his tenure was just so bad that he could also arguably be the worst of the 4.

I think it’s exactly as you listed them. There was nothing wrong with Dom. Toward the end of his tenure the defensive roster was so bad he had to take the fall before the lesser educated, and by that I mean #$%!@&, fans could catch on and realize that TT was the real problem.

Dom allowed Kaepernick to run for 175 yards on us or whatever it was, in a playoff game, a few days after telling everyone that we didn't need to prepare for the read-option because it was a fad.

His saving grace was his 2010 defense, but by 2013 we had enough bad years that he probably should have been replaced at that point imo.

Capers, Pettine, Sanders, Barry

there isn't a defensive scheme that works minus the talent to make it work, and Capers unit to often lost players to injury, went years minus starting caliber players at safety and ILB,.

just read that Lafleur over rode Pettine in 2020 play offs ( super blogger Butkowski vid) and called single high man coverage, Stokes was beaten for the TD.

Sanders ran the out of date old fairbanks 4-3 scheme, offenses had figured out how to beat, was a good scheme in it's day.

doesn't matter how good the players are, Barry is a very passive coach, the only chance he has for success is max pass rush, and the hope for offensive mistakes

texas wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 03:48

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 00:12

texas wrote: ↑

22 Dec 2023 22:45

How do you rank Dom, Pettine, Sanders, and Barry?

I guess I could make a case for pretty much any order of those 4. Maybe not Sanders in the top spot. Dom did have a top defense and we won the SB with him, but the rest of his tenure was just so bad that he could also arguably be the worst of the 4.

I think it’s exactly as you listed them. There was nothing wrong with Dom. Toward the end of his tenure the defensive roster was so bad he had to take the fall before the lesser educated, and by that I mean #$%!@&, fans could catch on and realize that TT was the real problem.

Dom allowed Kaepernick to run for 175 yards on us or whatever it was, in a playoff game, a few days after telling everyone that we didn't need to prepare for the read-option because it was a fad.

His saving grace was his 2010 defense, but by 2013 we had enough bad years that he probably should have been replaced at that point imo.

Capers had a way inciting angst and disdain amongst Packers chat boards and the overall fan base. Some of his schemes and alignments were brilliant. Others were flat out ignorant and ineffective. That playoff game versus the Niners when Kaepernick ran all over Lambeau was painful to watch live. Dom Dom Dom Dom Dee Doo Dom ......... whereby Doo is related to Capers' schemes and alignments

I was a Dom guy, defended him pretty much to the end, but I was in favor of moving on when we did because he'd been around for way longer than most D-Coords, and we missed the playoffs so it was a good time to hire (first dibs at coaching candidates). I thought his defenses were adequate when the talent was up to par, didn't love it, but adequate is realistically all you can ask of the D when you're on the Elite QB budget. He at least showed he could field an elite defense before the cap dried up, which none of these other guys can say.

I wanted Pettine fired or at least on the shortest of leashes after giving up 200+ to Mostert in the playoffs and losing to an offense with single digit pass attempts. There was nothing of the Rex Ryan style in his defense.

Barry has the exact same D/philosophy: run defense isn't important, prioritize stopping the pass, but then we don't actually stop the pass well. It's an idiotic philosophy. Barry has been better but had better talent, but this D would have been Pettine's ceiling, and it's wholly inadequate.

Sanders's defense was at least decent for a couple seasons, no? I don't remember his tenure well other than his bad 2008 season.

Capers, ... Sanders ......................... Barry/Pettine (no difference).

Capers had a pattern of early success in first 3 or 4 years and then trailing off to suckville thereafter. I figure it must have been talent development. Getting a group of players that were already developed he could schem them very successfully. But when those guys drop off the roster and he had to rely on guys he developed - they were in trouble.


As far as the OP goes - I don't have any confidence that Barry is going to get better. If it hasn't happened already, it isn't going to happen. He must go if the Packers have a chance in 2024.

Capers couldn't mold his defenses to his players. While we definitely lacked talent at the end there were seasons he wouldn't take advantage of the talent we did have. That and having to go learn from a college coach how to stop the option after Kaepernick ate his lunch was the breaking point for me.

Pettine was fine in the scheme department, but had too many in game brain farts.

Bob Sanders was completely vanilla.

Joe Barry seems to be an on paper guy, but completely lacks real world perception. He's also scared of big plays so much that he gives up big plays because of it.

As a whole, which is an organizational failing which Mike Daniels pointed out, we lack a killer mentality, that swagger, on defense. Kevin Greene had it, but it left with him. Other than those few years we haven't had it since the 90s.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 09:45

Capers couldn't mold his defenses to his players. While we definitely lacked talent at the end there were seasons he wouldn't take advantage of the talent we did have. That and having to go learn from a college coach how to stop the option after Kaepernick ate his lunch was the breaking point for me.

like to see evidence that Capers didn't know how to stop a RO QB.

Capers went two years straight with backup CB's never really had coverage lbers after Hawk, who had lost his speed, really never had a compliment to Mathews till Ted brought in Peppers, same with the safety position

Capers was the scape goat for Teds terrible defensive draft picks.

Capers ran what Fangio has used except for more man coverage, make offenses win running or dink and dunk passing, it had/has been a proven plan, typically offenses stop themselves with mistakes or simply not moving the chains.

and if your proof ends up 2nd and 3rd hand info don't even bother to bring it

Yoop wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 10:31

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 09:45

Capers couldn't mold his defenses to his players. While we definitely lacked talent at the end there were seasons he wouldn't take advantage of the talent we did have. That and having to go learn from a college coach how to stop the option after Kaepernick ate his lunch was the breaking point for me.

like to see evidence that Capers didn't know how to stop a RO QB.

Capers went two years straight with backup CB's never really had coverage lbers after Hawk, who had lost his speed, really never had a compliment to Mathews till Ted brought in Peppers, same with the safety position

Capers was the scape goat for Teds terrible defensive draft picks.

Capers ran what Fangio has used except for more man coverage, make offenses win running or dink and dunk passing, it had/has been a proven plan, typically offenses stop themselves with mistakes or simply not moving the chains.

and if your proof ends up 2nd and 3rd hand info don't even bother to bring it

This has been posted before, several times:
https://archive.jsonline.com/sports/pac ... 19171.html

This off-season has been one prolonged tutorial on the option and the pistol formation that often triggers it. The entire defensive coaching staff traveled to College Station, Texas, to meet with Texas A&M's staff. Capers spent a full day with Wisconsin defensive coordinator Dave Aranda, a coach who game-planned for Kaepernick in college at Hawaii.

Yoop wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 10:31

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 09:45

Capers couldn't mold his defenses to his players. While we definitely lacked talent at the end there were seasons he wouldn't take advantage of the talent we did have. That and having to go learn from a college coach how to stop the option after Kaepernick ate his lunch was the breaking point for me.

like to see evidence that Capers didn't know how to stop a RO QB.
...

This is too easy:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/game/_/gameId/330112025
Leading rusher: Kaepernick - 16 carries, 181 yards, 2 TD

https://www.espn.com/nfl/game/_/gameId/340105009
Leading rusher: Kaepernick - 7 carries, 98 yards

I 'd still rather win out.

Can we win out, NOT fire Joe Barry, but just not rehire him?

Looke like a pretty easy this-or-that choice to start with, but some posters can run wild with semantics.

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 00:12

texas wrote: ↑

22 Dec 2023 22:45

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

22 Dec 2023 20:01

Love the post, but there is not way there is a downgrade from Barry. I'll guarantee that. As much as I lambasted Dom, Barry is so stuck in his scheme he disregards everything.

How do you rank Dom, Pettine, Sanders, and Barry?

I guess I could make a case for pretty much any order of those 4. Maybe not Sanders in the top spot. Dom did have a top defense and we won the SB with him, but the rest of his tenure was just so bad that he could also arguably be the worst of the 4.

I think it’s exactly as you listed them. There was nothing wrong with Dom. Toward the end of his tenure the defensive roster was so bad he had to take the fall before the lesser educated, and by that I mean #$%!@&, fans could catch on and realize that TT was the real problem.

In the big moments I disagree with this.

Capers in the playoffs actually did worse during the "peak talent years" compared to the "valley talent years" you keep trying to push.

2009 - allowed 45 points in regulation vs AZ
2011 - allowed 37 points in regulation to NYG
2012 - allowed 45 points in regulation to SF

It wasn't until 2013 - 2015 when the Capers defenses started performing well.

2013 - allowed 20 points in regulation vs SF
2014 - allowed 21 points in regulation vs DAL and 22 points in regulation vs SEA
2015 - allowed 18 points in regulation vs WASH and 20 points in regulation vs AZ

2016 was a struggle for the defense. It was decimated by injuries.

Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 12:12

Yoop wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 10:31

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 09:45

Capers couldn't mold his defenses to his players. While we definitely lacked talent at the end there were seasons he wouldn't take advantage of the talent we did have. That and having to go learn from a college coach how to stop the option after Kaepernick ate his lunch was the breaking point for me.

like to see evidence that Capers didn't know how to stop a RO QB.
...

This is too easy:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/game/_/gameId/330112025
Leading rusher: Kaepernick - 16 carries, 181 yards, 2 TD

https://www.espn.com/nfl/game/_/gameId/340105009
Leading rusher: Kaepernick - 7 carries, 98 yards

whats easy, is to just blame Capers when Kaepernick ran to the tune of over 500 yrds both seasons, and was a chore to contain for any team with crap safety and ILB play, he also passed well enough that a DC had to respect it, also making it harder to defend both his legs and his arm, play action works best when ya have a RO QB.

wanna know what else is easy, it's realizing fans here that said QB wasn't good enough to be given another shot in this league a few years back had a agenda, I'll leave it to you to figure out what that was/is.

Capers was the best DC this team has had since Shurmer, and thats why he lasted here till 2018, why would Ted or any GM get rid of a DC when the problem is poor talent, course thats what eventually happened, both Capers and Ted lost there jobs

go pak go wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 12:54

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 00:12

texas wrote: ↑

22 Dec 2023 22:45

How do you rank Dom, Pettine, Sanders, and Barry?

I guess I could make a case for pretty much any order of those 4. Maybe not Sanders in the top spot. Dom did have a top defense and we won the SB with him, but the rest of his tenure was just so bad that he could also arguably be the worst of the 4.

I think it’s exactly as you listed them. There was nothing wrong with Dom. Toward the end of his tenure the defensive roster was so bad he had to take the fall before the lesser educated, and by that I mean #$%!@&, fans could catch on and realize that TT was the real problem.

In the big moments I disagree with this.

Capers in the playoffs actually did worse during the "peak talent years" compared to the "valley talent years" you keep trying to push.

2009 - allowed 45 points in regulation vs AZ
2011 - allowed 37 points in regulation to NYG
2012 - allowed 45 points in regulation to SF

It wasn't until 2013 - 2015 when the Capers defenses started performing well.

2013 - allowed 20 points in regulation vs SF
2014 - allowed 21 points in regulation vs DAL and 22 points in regulation vs SEA
2015 - allowed 18 points in regulation vs WASH and 20 points in regulation vs AZ

2016 was a struggle for the defense. It was decimated by injuries.

we showed everything we had the week prior with zone and whipped em, they saw match up weak points, and the next week used em to beat Capers, in 011 and 12 same thing, talent decline

2015 the secondary was ranked top 5 in the league

again talent matters, on defense any weak position will be exploited

Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 12:12

Yoop wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 10:31

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 09:45

Capers couldn't mold his defenses to his players. While we definitely lacked talent at the end there were seasons he wouldn't take advantage of the talent we did have. That and having to go learn from a college coach how to stop the option after Kaepernick ate his lunch was the breaking point for me.

like to see evidence that Capers didn't know how to stop a RO QB.
...

This is too easy:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/game/_/gameId/330112025
Leading rusher: Kaepernick - 16 carries, 181 yards, 2 TD

https://www.espn.com/nfl/game/_/gameId/340105009
Leading rusher: Kaepernick - 7 carries, 98 yards

Strictly speaking, that is not evidence that Capers did not know how to stop a RO-QB. It may be that he put the guys in position and they did not execute.

Which is what I believe to be the case vis-a-vis Kaepernick. I remember a big part of it was Erik Walden at EDGE always big game hunting and blowing contain over and over.

go pak go wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 12:54

In the big moments I disagree with this.

Capers in the playoffs actually did worse during the "peak talent years" compared to the "valley talent years" you keep trying to push.

2009 - allowed 45 points in regulation vs AZ
2011 - allowed 37 points in regulation to NYG
2012 - allowed 45 points in regulation to SF

It wasn't until 2013 - 2015 when the Capers defenses started performing well.

2009 AZ, just unfortunate. We went up against a HOF QB who was on fire that day and had iirc three superb receivers (I believe they had Fitz, Boldin, and Breaston). 'Not much you can do.

2011 yeah, the house of cards that was our defense fell apart. I feel like Nick Collins was the lynchpin, without whom the whole thing just collapsed. It was a massive, devastating loss which also explains the D's 2012 struggles.

2013 - allowed 20 points in regulation vs SF
2014 - allowed 21 points in regulation vs DAL and 22 points in regulation vs SEA
2015 - allowed 18 points in regulation vs WASH and 20 points in regulation vs AZ

2016 was a struggle for the defense. It was decimated by injuries.

Yeah, nothing special, but when you gave him talent up to par, you could win with the defenses he gave you. O fell short 2013-2015.

Labrev wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 17:33

Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 12:12

Yoop wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 10:31

like to see evidence that Capers didn't know how to stop a RO QB.
...

This is too easy:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/game/_/gameId/330112025
Leading rusher: Kaepernick - 16 carries, 181 yards, 2 TD

https://www.espn.com/nfl/game/_/gameId/340105009
Leading rusher: Kaepernick - 7 carries, 98 yards

Strictly speaking, that is not evidence that Capers did not know how to stop a RO-QB. It may be that he put the guys in position and they did not execute.

Which is what I believe to be the case vis-a-vis Kaepernick. I remember a big part of it was Erik Walden at EDGE always big game hunting and blowing contain over and over.

https://archive.jsonline.com/sports/pac ... 19171.html

That's evidence.

Labrev wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 17:33

Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 12:12

Yoop wrote: ↑

23 Dec 2023 10:31

like to see evidence that Capers didn't know how to stop a RO QB.
...

This is too easy:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/game/_/gameId/330112025
Leading rusher: Kaepernick - 16 carries, 181 yards, 2 TD

https://www.espn.com/nfl/game/_/gameId/340105009
Leading rusher: Kaepernick - 7 carries, 98 yards

Strictly speaking, that is not evidence that Capers did not know how to stop a RO-QB. It may be that he put the guys in position and they did not execute.

Which is what I believe to be the case vis-a-vis Kaepernick. I remember a big part of it was Erik Walden at EDGE always big game hunting and blowing contain over and over.

Po-tay-to, po-tah-to. Who coached Walden all year? Oh yeah, Capers!

(Yes, I'm still salty about those games.)