Page 101 of 130
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 21:37
by go pak go
Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:32
go pak go wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:26
On the top of my head, 4 teams have had "back to back" MVPs in the SB era.
1. Green Bay Packers with Brett Favre - 1 SB win (3 seasons)
2. St. Louis Rams with Faulk and Warner - 1 SB win (3 seasons)
3. Peyton Manning with the Colts - 0 SB wins (2 seasons)
4. Green Bay Packers with Rodgers - 0 SB wins (2 seasons)
So 2 SBs in 8 seasons in this population.
I didn’t say back to back. I was saying “2 MVPs during their tenure”
Bill Polian won a Super Bowl with Manning, while manning won 2 MVPs during his tenure.
And you already said, favre did it and Warner did it. I’m sure there are others. That’s who you gotta compare Gute to.
He did not do it.
Rodgers won 2 MVPs and won a SB, under TT Tenure.
You cracked the code. BG is probably the only one. Checkmate everyone else.
In your honor, I will now singularly use the term "sucks" when talking about anything else relating to the Packers and/or football.
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 21:37
by Pckfn23
13 wins 3 seasons in a row should point to the GM doing something right. Plain and simple.
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 21:38
by Drj820
Scott4Pack wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:33
Of course, the Guty record is not complete. But he has five years to glean plenty of data, which has been partially documented above. But fact is, he started to manage a team that was already highly successful. And the overall record of that team has actually improved during his tenure.
If Guty were a negative GM, you’d already see the team doing a slide (especially before this past year). But it hasn’t. It has improved. And where there is a brief, one-year “slide” there were numerous injuries. It’s better to judge if or how they rebound in 2023.
Guty is very good alright. And hopefully it continues.
So Teds players start to age out and leave the roster and we miss the playoffs and we just dismiss the “slide”? Lol. Funny.
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 21:39
by Drj820
go pak go wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:37
Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:32
go pak go wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:26
On the top of my head, 4 teams have had "back to back" MVPs in the SB era.
1. Green Bay Packers with Brett Favre - 1 SB win (3 seasons)
2. St. Louis Rams with Faulk and Warner - 1 SB win (3 seasons)
3. Peyton Manning with the Colts - 0 SB wins (2 seasons)
4. Green Bay Packers with Rodgers - 0 SB wins (2 seasons)
So 2 SBs in 8 seasons in this population.
I didn’t say back to back. I was saying “2 MVPs during their tenure”
Bill Polian won a Super Bowl with Manning, while manning won 2 MVPs during his tenure.
And you already said, favre did it and Warner did it. I’m sure there are others. That’s who you gotta compare Gute to.
He did not do it.
Rodgers won 2 MVPs and won a SB, under TT Tenure.
You cracked the code. BG is probably the only one. Checkmate everyone else.
In your honor, I will now singularly use the term "sucks" when talking about anything else relating to the Packers and/or football.
I don’t know that he’s the only one, that’s why I asked. But if he is, that’s a big negative lol
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 21:40
by YoHoChecko
Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:17
How many GMs have a qb that have won 2 MVPs while they were the GM, do those GMs have super bowls? Because that’s who Gutey should be compared to.
Patrick Mahomes was the first MVP to win a Super Bowl the same year they won MVP since 1999.
So that metric isn't the credential you think it is, either.
Also, Rodgers played like an MVP because the coach and GM put him in position to succeed the way the previous regime didn't. Unless you are on yoop's side here that Rodgers tanked 2017 and 2018 intentionally to get Mike McCarthy fired and then just decided to start playing well again.
Rodgers' first 3 years under MLF, for instance, were nearly as good of a 3-year stretch as if you took Rodgers' previous three best individual seasons and added them up. In terms of consecutive years, it was basically tied with his best 3-year stretch of his career, statistically. And he won more games and went to more NFC Championship games.
You can yell Super Bowl all you want, but that is NOT how you measure a 5-year stint as an NFL GM, or else the league has a 90+% GM failure rate.
Dismissing the difficulty of winning 13 regular season games, dismissing the difficulty of getting to back-to-back conference championship games, dismissing the insane achievement it is to find free agents with NO prior heroics and put them into an immediate position to succeed (a lot more difficult than signing already-big-name players)... you're the one who looks unreasonable here.
6 franchises have won 30 of the 57 Super Bowls. Only 4 franchises have won more Super Bowls than the Packers. Only the Patriots, Giants, Chiefs, and Steelers have won multiple Super Bowls in the past 20 years. Cry me a river with "Rodgers only won one."
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 21:45
by go pak go
Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:39
go pak go wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:37
Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:32
I didn’t say back to back. I was saying “2 MVPs during their tenure”
Bill Polian won a Super Bowl with Manning, while manning won 2 MVPs during his tenure.
And you already said, favre did it and Warner did it. I’m sure there are others. That’s who you gotta compare Gute to.
He did not do it.
Rodgers won 2 MVPs and won a SB, under TT Tenure.
You cracked the code. BG is probably the only one. Checkmate everyone else.
In your honor, I will now singularly use the term "sucks" when talking about anything else relating to the Packers and/or football.
I don’t know that he’s the only one, that’s why I asked. But if he is, that’s a big negative lol
Well I think the only other time a GM would have had multiple MVPs was Mahommes, Brady and probably the Young/Montana era.
A lot of players/teams who have multiple MVPs win at least once, but not necessarily in the MVP stretch. You're adding a major qualifier because you're trying to squeeze Rodgers into the 2020 - 2021 era. Actually winning MVP and SB though in the same year isn't a common occurrence.
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 21:50
by Drj820
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:40
Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:17
How many GMs have a qb that have won 2 MVPs while they were the GM, do those GMs have super bowls? Because that’s who Gutey should be compared to.
Patrick Mahomes was the first MVP to win a Super Bowl the same year they won MVP since 1999.
So that metric isn't the credential you think it is, either.
Also, Rodgers played like an MVP because the coach and GM put him in position to succeed the way the previous regime didn't. Unless you are on yoop's side here that Rodgers tanked 2017 and 2018 intentionally to get Mike McCarthy fired and then just decided to start playing well again.
Rodgers' first 3 years under MLF, for instance, were nearly as good of a 3-year stretch as if you took Rodgers' previous three best individual seasons and added them up. In terms of consecutive years, it was basically tied with his best 3-year stretch of his career, statistically. And he won more games and went to more NFC Championship games.
You can yell Super Bowl all you want, but that is NOT how you measure a 5-year stint as an NFL GM, or else the league has a 90+% GM failure rate.
Dismissing the difficulty of winning 13 regular season games, dismissing the difficulty of getting to back-to-back conference championship games, dismissing the insane achievement it is to find free agents with NO prior heroics and put them into an immediate position to succeed (a lot more difficult than signing already-big-name players)... you're the one who looks unreasonable here.
6 franchises have won 30 of the 57 Super Bowls. Only 4 franchises have won more Super Bowls than the Packers. Only the Patriots, Giants, Chiefs, and Steelers have won multiple Super Bowls in the past 20 years. Cry me a river with "Rodgers only won one."
Like I said, you subscribe to the Phillip rivers school of regular seasons wins should get you a statue. Me, I know the Super Bowl trophy is called the lombardi trophy. I know Green Bay likes to call itself title town.
I know Rodgers has won 4 MVPs. Rodgers has also been the starter of the Packers for 15 years. Many say Rodgers was the most talented QB they had ever seen.
Yet the team went to one Super Bowl. Systematic failure.
I give the credit for the wins some to Gutey, more to weak schedule, much more to Lafleur for turning around Rodgers, and the most for angry rodgers turning around his play.
Now that rodgers is gone, the regular season wins will mean alot more. Because the standard won’t be Super Bowl for a while. When it’s Super Bowl, the results are pass or fail.
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 21:52
by Drj820
go pak go wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:45
Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:39
go pak go wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:37
You cracked the code. BG is probably the only one. Checkmate everyone else.
In your honor, I will now singularly use the term "sucks" when talking about anything else relating to the Packers and/or football.
I don’t know that he’s the only one, that’s why I asked. But if he is, that’s a big negative lol
Well I think the only other time a GM would have had multiple MVPs was Mahommes, Brady and probably the Young/Montana era.
A lot of players/teams who have multiple MVPs win at least once, but not necessarily in the MVP stretch. You're adding a major qualifier because you're trying to squeeze Rodgers into the 2020 - 2021 era. Actually winning MVP and SB though in the same year isn't a common occurrence.
What is my qualifier? And I’m not saying it has to be in the same year. I’m saying when has a GM had a qb that at some point in their tenure won 2 MVPs, not won a SB during their tenure.
I’m pretty sure Gute is only GM to hold that honor. But I’m asking because I could be missing someone
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 21:55
by go pak go
Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:52
go pak go wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:45
Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:39
I don’t know that he’s the only one, that’s why I asked. But if he is, that’s a big negative lol
Well I think the only other time a GM would have had multiple MVPs was Mahommes, Brady and probably the Young/Montana era.
A lot of players/teams who have multiple MVPs win at least once, but not necessarily in the MVP stretch. You're adding a major qualifier because you're trying to squeeze Rodgers into the 2020 - 2021 era. Actually winning MVP and SB though in the same year isn't a common occurrence.
What is my qualifier? And I’m not saying it has to be in the same year. I’m saying when has a GM had a qb that at some point in their tenure won 2 MVPs, not won a SB during their tenure.
I’m pretty sure Gute is only GM to hold that honor. But I’m asking because I could be missing someone
So you ask a question and then answer your own question.
Yes. You found a statistic that is true. I will give you that. And for that I will honorarily say "he sucks" when talking about any player, coach, or GM outside the Chiefs or Tom Brady teams.
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 21:58
by Drj820
go pak go wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:55
Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:52
go pak go wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 21:45
Well I think the only other time a GM would have had multiple MVPs was Mahommes, Brady and probably the Young/Montana era.
A lot of players/teams who have multiple MVPs win at least once, but not necessarily in the MVP stretch. You're adding a major qualifier because you're trying to squeeze Rodgers into the 2020 - 2021 era. Actually winning MVP and SB though in the same year isn't a common occurrence.
What is my qualifier? And I’m not saying it has to be in the same year. I’m saying when has a GM had a qb that at some point in their tenure won 2 MVPs, not won a SB during their tenure.
I’m pretty sure Gute is only GM to hold that honor. But I’m asking because I could be missing someone
So you ask a question and then answer your own question.
Yes. You found a statistic that is true. I will give you that. And for that I will honorarily say "he sucks" when talking about any player, coach, or GM outside the Chiefs or Tom Brady teams.
Is this how you act when you realize Gute has historically under achieved? Again, I don’t know for sure that my stat is true. I’m asking everyone if they know of other cases.
The way I see it is Wolf brought in Favre and won a ring and went to another SB. Ted won a Super Bowl with 12. Gute came in and had Rodgers, drafted his replacement, and now is gonna remove him while he still has career left, all while not achieving stated goal of winning a Super Bowl like Ted and Ron did
So yes, Il hold my applause.
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 22:07
by bud fox
Going to be easy to measure going forward because the team will be without arod.
It's basically gutes team now.
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 22:10
by YoHoChecko
Also, the Packers only have 6 players left from the TT era: Rodgers, Crosby, Bakhtiari, Kenny Clark, Aaron Jones, and Bob Tonyan.
The only guys who were on the 2020 team that were from the TT era and have departed are Corey Linsley, Kevin King, Jamaal Williams, and Davante Adams.
Don't tell me the change from 2020 to 2022 was because "TT's players aged out." Most of TT's players were gone before the team started winning 13 games and the QB resumed winning MVPs
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 22:13
by bud fox
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 22:10
Also, the Packers only have 6 players left from the TT era: Rodgers, Crosby, Bakhtiari, Kenny Clark, Aaron Jones, and Bob Tonyan.
The only guys who were on the 2020 team that were from the TT era and have departed are Corey Linsley, Kevin King, Jamaal Williams, and Davante Adams.
Don't tell me the change from 2020 to 2022 was because "TT's players aged out." Most of TT's players were gone before the team started winning 13 games and the QB resumed winning MVPs
Problem with 22 was worst receiving group in the league, bad oline and injured qb.
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 22:15
by Drj820
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 22:10
Also, the Packers only have 6 players left from the TT era: Rodgers, Crosby, Bakhtiari, Kenny Clark, Aaron Jones, and Bob Tonyan.
The only guys who were on the 2020 team that were from the TT era and have departed are Corey Linsley, Kevin King, Jamaal Williams, and Davante Adams.
Don't tell me the change from 2020 to 2022 was because "TT's players aged out." Most of TT's players were gone before the team started winning 13 games and the QB resumed winning MVPs
1) Lol! Surely you realize Rodgers, Crosby, Bakh, Kenny, and Aaron Jones were pretty big components of the 13 win teams hahaha
2) Surely you realize losing Adams and replacing him with a raw talented project (Watson) and Sammy Watkins and Cobb was probably the biggest reason for the 22 decline? (All decisions of Gute)
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 22:26
by Drj820
Gute got to start his career as GM with good cap space a HOF QB, the NFLs best WR, Kenny Clark, a solid kicker, Linsley, and the best LT in Bakh.
Guy was born on 3rd base and some people think he hit a triple! Lol. Born on 3rd base and still couldn’t get home.
Well 3 outs now, batter up. Time will tell.
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 22:29
by YoHoChecko
Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 22:15
1) Lol! Surely you realize Rodgers, Crosby, Bakh, Kenny, and Aaron Jones were pretty big components of the 13 win teams hahaha
Yes obviously, the Packers with tenures that pre-date a 5-year span are the ones worth keeping. Obviously they are big parts.
Certainly you realize that Jaire Alexander, Rashaan Gary, Elkton Jenkins, Za'Darius Smith (2020), Preston Smith, Rasul Douglas, and DeVondre Campbell are big parts of the 13-win teams, too. Oh look! That's as many as there are TT guys! Wow!
AND that the guys you're praising on that TT list were still there in 2022 when things went south. So obviously, they weren't enough.
Yes, obviously, trading Adams was a big part of the team taking a step back this year. Obviously. I am on record that Gutey traded Adams and kept Rodgers when he should have traded Rodgers and kept Adams. But either way, one was leaving and it was because Rodgers and Adams both wanted to be the highest-paid player at their position at a time when Jaire already was at his, Bakh already was at his, Kenny was top 5 at his, etc. etc. 2022 was always going to be a transition year on offense. We knew that. We planned for that. We all talked about it here.
But to act as if there was some HUGE dropoff in team talent because TT's guys were gone just ignores the reality that literally less than 10 of the 53 man roster in Rodgers' MVP years were holdovers, and a handful of those guys didn't matter a whole lot to the team's overall talent level.
I think you're drastically underestimating how short a time period 5 years is and how quickly Gutey and MLF turned things around for us from the 2017-2018 teams to the 2019-2022 teams. Now it's time to turn things around again in the post-Rodgers era. Obviously, that is a task worth continuously evaluating. You're only as good as your next project. But Gutey went almost all-in for the Rodgers late-career window and yeah, it fell short of a Super Bowl. But we fielded some awesome teams and assembled more team and individual success in a 3-year period than we've had since 2010-2012
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 22:37
by YoHoChecko
Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 22:26
Gute got to start his career as GM with good cap space a HOF QB, the NFLs best WR, Kenny Clark, a solid kicker, Linsley, and the best LT in Bakh.
Guy was born on 3rd base and some people think he hit a triple! Lol. Born on 3rd base and still couldn’t get home.
Well 3 outs now, batter up. Time will tell.
What ever happened to "you can't just name individual players; it's about team success."
First of all, Gutey didn't inherit cap space; that's why his free agent splash year was his second year. He had a mess to clean up in year one.
Second, he inherited a losing team who was losing faith in a head coach with an otherwise sterling record.
He inherited a team that finished 3rd in their division and 2 years later they were the 1-seed in the conference.
Your complete dismissal of every accomplishment that isn't a Super Bowl is patently absurd. You think you have an excuse for everything. It is genuinely stupid to insist that a team with 3 straight 13-win seasons skated by on the coattails of a QB who had been there the entire time the team fell off and a GM who stepped aside 3 years earlier.
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 22:39
by Drj820
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 22:29
Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 22:15
1) Lol! Surely you realize Rodgers, Crosby, Bakh, Kenny, and Aaron Jones were pretty big components of the 13 win teams hahaha
Yes obviously, the Packers with tenures that pre-date a 5-year span are the ones worth keeping. Obviously they are big parts.
Certainly you realize that Jaire Alexander, Rashaan Gary, Elkton Jenkins, Za'Darius Smith (2020), Preston Smith, Rasul Douglas, and DeVondre Campbell are big parts of the 13-win teams, too. Oh look! That's as many as there are TT guys! Wow!
AND that the guys you're praising on that TT list were still there in 2022 when things went south. So obviously, they weren't enough.
Yes, obviously, trading Adams was a big part of the team taking a step back this year. Obviously. I am on record that Gutey traded Adams and kept Rodgers when he should have traded Rodgers and kept Adams. But either way, one was leaving and it was because Rodgers and Adams both wanted to be the highest-paid player at their position at a time when Jaire already was at his, Bakh already was at his, Kenny was top 5 at his, etc. etc. 2022 was always going to be a transition year on offense. We knew that. We planned for that. We all talked about it here.
But to act as if there was some HUGE dropoff in team talent because TT's guys were gone just ignores the reality that literally less than 10 of the 53 man roster in Rodgers' MVP years were holdovers, and a handful of those guys didn't matter a whole lot to the team's overall talent level.
I think you're drastically underestimating how short a time period 5 years is and how quickly Gutey and MLF turned things around for us from the 2017-2018 teams to the 2019-2022 teams. Now it's time to turn things around again in the post-Rodgers era. Obviously, that is a task worth continuously evaluating. You're only as good as your next project. But Gutey went almost all-in for the Rodgers late-career window and yeah, it fell short of a Super Bowl. But we fielded some awesome teams and assembled more team and individual success in a 3-year period than we've had since 2010-2012
1) What do you think I haven’t admitted? Of course Gute added some talent. He wrecked the cap doing it and hit on some high end draft picks, but yes he brought in some nice players!
2) like I said before, it’s not about individuals. It’s about roster building. Showing up to SF with no help for Clark against the niners, epic fail. Showing up in the playoffs with teams just having to focus on Adams and literally no one else to worry about, epic fail.
3) dude walking into a situation with the best qb in the nfl..best LT, best WR, top 5 NT…etc etc is huge and rare and something you are undervaluing.
What about the TE position. How has Gutey the roster builder handled that? Spend years developing a guy who the bears give a one year prove it deal to, waste a pick on sternverger, waste resources on Davis and deguara…but hey, he drafted Gary at 12 overall folks when we already spent 100m on the position.
It’s just not that impressive. It’s mid. Now we get to see what he’s all about. Let’s not give him the crown just yet please.
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 22:42
by Drj820
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 22:37
Drj820 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2023 22:26
Gute got to start his career as GM with good cap space a HOF QB, the NFLs best WR, Kenny Clark, a solid kicker, Linsley, and the best LT in Bakh.
Guy was born on 3rd base and some people think he hit a triple! Lol. Born on 3rd base and still couldn’t get home.
Well 3 outs now, batter up. Time will tell.
What ever happened to "you can't just name individual players; it's about team success."
First of all, Gutey didn't inherit cap space; that's why his free agent splash year was his second year. He had a mess to clean up in year one.
Second, he inherited a losing team who was losing faith in a head coach with an otherwise sterling record.
He inherited a team that finished 3rd in their division and 2 years later they were the 1-seed in the conference.
Your complete dismissal of every accomplishment that isn't a Super Bowl is patently absurd. You think you have an excuse for everything. It is genuinely stupid to insist that a team with 3 straight 13-win seasons skated by on the coattails of a QB who had been there the entire time the team fell off and a GM who stepped aside 3 years earlier.
You can’t just name individuals. But having about 6 potential HOFers on the roster sure is a good start!
And the failures you speak of for the year before was due to a decline in coaching and qb play. Also a drastic decline in WR play from the DD, Jj, and Jennings days. The new coach fixed a lot of this. The GM did not hire the coach. This would be a much different conversation if he did.
The roster leading up to the firing of TT had outstanding cornerstones. It did also have major holes. Gutey chose to address some of those holes and completely ignore others. Like the WR position.
Re: Rodgers Watch 2023
Posted: 16 Mar 2023 22:47
by Drj820
Gutey found some free agents that contributed to the team. I know this is not something packer fans are used to, but it’s actually extremely common league wide. Happens every year.