Packers Huddle

Drj820 wrote: ↑

16 Mar 2023 22:47

Gutey found some free agents that contributed to the team. I know this is not something packer fans are used to, but it’s actually extremely common league wide. Happens every year.

check how many free agents make their first all pro teams in their first year with new teams.

The way you just dismiss these additions as if it were the Vikings or Cowboys signing big names for big money is just asinine. Finding Rasul, Campbell, and Nixon were outstanding additions, not common around the league additions. You're talking two first-year All Pros and a guy who had 2 game-winning interceptions and 2 pick-6s his first year with the team. All acquired for peanuts. All no-names when added. That's really good talent scouting.

Interesting discussion on the GM. I don't think Gute is a bad GM, but so far he hasn't been great either. My two main criticisms of him are that he is a terrible communicator (no need to discuss this as it is beyond obvious) and he seems to have no plan on building a team. He seems like the little Dutch boy who sticks his fingers in the dike to plug the holes that appear. A well-thought out plan would not have the Packers being almost completely devoid of talent in different areas every year. The whole fiasco with signing Rodgers to a new megamoney contract last year to deciding to dump him a year later supports the concept of the lack of a cohesive plan.

Unfortunately, the current Packer power structure has absolutely hindered his ability to lead the franchise. I have never been a fan of this structure, nor am I a fan of Murphy. Rodgers was able to play the elements of this structure against each other to the detriment of the franchise overall. I think Gute has done a decent job of filling the holes in the Packer dike, but it's hard to build a successful organization this way.

The only problem I have with Gute and Murphy is that they pandered to Rodgers and gave him an unnecessary contract. There have been some bad draft picks, like Amari Rodgers but there have also been some great ones.

If they can get the Jets' 13 pick I'd say they are great. If they find another Gary or Watson with that pick, they walk on water

But this is a Rodgers' thread so I'd like to say something. Until recently I believed that Rodgers would be back next season and lead the Packers to a disaster season, mitigated only by a top 3 pick. Love would be so dis'ed that he would never sign with the Packers. As it turns out, Rodgers has more class than I expected and Gute has more smarts. So we say goodbye to Rodgers and it is now just a little sad that it came to this. He should have played out his contract a year ago and gone elsewhere with the previous season's MVP on his resume, gone out with dignity. The Packers would be sitting pretty too, with Love having a full season under his belt and the Packers having money to spend.

Everyone lost, especially the fans who pay the bill.

people go gaga over the Gary pick, we've gotten one very good season from Gary, is the goal to get a year maybe 2 from a 12 slot pick on a 5 year rookie deal? thats not my goal.

Guty has done a good job of using UFA to patch weak positions, but some of these draft for the future picks like Gary never made sense to me, neither has using all the high picks on defense, I expect the same this year draft, Love will have to wait for more receiver help till who knows when just as Rodgers did.

when will GM's get it through there heads that it's cheaper in the long run to just buy DT's versus spending high picks on busts, Philly did it and went to the SB, Reed was our #2 DT last year and was cheap, Wyatt needs to take his spot and impress.

my angst centers around Gute decisions how best to build a winning team, this throwing all the draft capitol at defense hasn't made the grade, and it's put to much of a burden on the offense.

williewasgreat wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 04:47

Interesting discussion on the GM. I don't think Gute is a bad GM, but so far he hasn't been great either. My two main criticisms of him are that he is a terrible communicator (no need to discuss this as it is beyond obvious) and he seems to have no plan on building a team. He seems like the little Dutch boy who sticks his fingers in the dike to plug the holes that appear. A well-thought out plan would not have the Packers being almost completely devoid of talent in different areas every year. The whole fiasco with signing Rodgers to a new megamoney contract last year to deciding to dump him a year later supports the concept of the lack of a cohesive plan.

Unfortunately, the current Packer power structure has absolutely hindered his ability to lead the franchise. I have never been a fan of this structure, nor am I a fan of Murphy. Rodgers was able to play the elements of this structure against each other to the detriment of the franchise overall. I think Gute has done a decent job of filling the holes in the Packer dike, but it's hard to build a successful organization this way.

This is another item to put on the list of reasons to clean house, hose it down, and start over. The dike hole creation era likely started to creep in when Wahle and Rivera were let go. Linsley and MVS leaving are just part of this dike hole creation era.

There are holes and there are tools. Now holes are being created by and/or filled by tools instead of with tools. Some holes are clogged.

williewasgreat wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 04:47

Interesting discussion on the GM. I don't think Gute is a bad GM, but so far he hasn't been great either. My two main criticisms of him are that he is a terrible communicator (no need to discuss this as it is beyond obvious) and he seems to have no plan on building a team. He seems like the little Dutch boy who sticks his fingers in the dike to plug the holes that appear. A well-thought out plan would not have the Packers being almost completely devoid of talent in different areas every year. The whole fiasco with signing Rodgers to a new megamoney contract last year to deciding to dump him a year later supports the concept of the lack of a cohesive plan.

Unfortunately, the current Packer power structure has absolutely hindered his ability to lead the franchise. I have never been a fan of this structure, nor am I a fan of Murphy. Rodgers was able to play the elements of this structure against each other to the detriment of the franchise overall. I think Gute has done a decent job of filling the holes in the Packer dike, but it's hard to build a successful organization this way.

Great post

The way I see it, 13 wins is amazing when you have a QB like Love. We are heading into a phase where if the team can win 13 games, that shows the GM is doing an amazing job.

When you have a Rodgers at QB, 13 wins means nothing. It’s about building a team around him that can at least go to a Super Bowl. Gute failed at that. Every year we entered the playoffs with an egregious fatal flaw that we all saw coming from the very beginning.

2020 it was the DL and no receivers beyond Adams
2021 it was no receivers beyond adams AND awful/atrocious STs
2022 it was the leagues worst WR crew.

Good GMs with championship aspirations dont roll into seasons with massive holes that are inevitable to be exploited by good playoff teams.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 06:46

The way I see it, 13 wins is amazing when you have a QB like Love. We are heading into a phase where if the team can win 13 games, that shows the GM is doing an amazing job.

When you have a Rodgers at QB, 13 wins means nothing. It’s about building a team around him that can at least go to a Super Bowl. Gute failed at that. Every year we entered the playoffs with an egregious fatal flaw that we all saw coming from the very beginning.

2020 it was the DL and no receivers beyond Adams
2021 it was no receivers beyond adams AND awful/atrocious STs
2022 it was the leagues worst WR crew.

Good GMs with championship aspirations dont roll into seasons with massive holes that are inevitable to be exploited by good playoff teams.

The last time the Green Bay Packers had a top-5 defense, they won the Super Bowl. But then again the last time the Packers had a receiving corp with 3 Packers Hall of Famers (Donald Driver, Greg Jennings and Jordy Nelson) plus Jermichael Finley and James Jones, they won the Super Bowl. The 2010 defense was packed with talent at all 3 levels. Collins, Shields and Woodson in the defensive backfield. Hawk and Matthews linebackers. And Jenkins, Raji and Pickett anchoring the defensive line. Clifton, Wells, Bulaga and Sitton on the offensive line was awesome as well. TT and McCoach had done good!

Aaron Rodgers: a hall of fame QB so individually good that he raises team expectations to Super Bowl or bust every year.

Aaron Rodgers: such a vulnerable product of his surroundings that having the league’s best wide receiver plus two other perfectly decent NFL starting-caliber players at WR* leaves him woefully understaffed and unable to compete.

(*who have each gotten above average player contracts with new teams to continue being 2nd/3rd options in the passing game)

RingoCStarrQB wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 08:24

(Donald Driver, Greg Jennings and Jordy Nelson) plus Jermichael Finley and James Jones, they won the Super Bowl.

Finley was on IR that year. Nelson emerged as one of the top wideouts in the league the the year after the SuperBowl. He and Jones decent players in 2010, but not stars, and both of them struggled with drops early in their careers (including 2010, and even had a few in the Bowl game).

Jennings was, at the time, the only true star player at WR. Driver was established but well past his prime by that point.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 08:47

Aaron Rodgers: a hall of fame QB so individually good that he raises team expectations to Super Bowl or bust every year.

Aaron Rodgers: such a vulnerable product of his surroundings that having the league’s best wide receiver plus two other perfectly decent NFL starting-caliber players at WR* leaves him woefully understaffed and unable to compete.

(*who have each gotten above average player contracts with new teams to continue being 2nd/3rd options in the passing game)

I disagree, up till MVS last season with us he couldn't run a route to save his bacon, and it was the same with Lazard, if these two could have separated on schedule Lafleur would have designed more 1st or second route progression reads for them, people act like Rodgers held these two guys back and that doesn't make sense, Adams was targeted more because he more often was open on schedule, they got what they where paid because there is a shortage of WR talent, and both have specific gifts that attract teams.

Cobb and Jordy got open on schedule, a team needs at least 2 receivers that can do that, and when ya look at the leagues more potent offenses that is what they have.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 08:47

Aaron Rodgers: a hall of fame QB so individually good that he raises team expectations to Super Bowl or bust every year.

Aaron Rodgers: such a vulnerable product of his surroundings that having the league’s best wide receiver plus two other perfectly decent NFL starting-caliber players at WR* leaves him woefully understaffed and unable to compete.

(*who have each gotten above average player contracts with new teams to continue being 2nd/3rd options in the passing game)

Just curious. If we weren’t in such a terrible cap situation, caused by the GM might I add, would you sign MVS or Lazard to the contracts they got.

https://stathead.com/tiny/81w5B - 95 teams have won 13 or more games.
https://stathead.com/tiny/raMjZ - 45 of those teams won their Conference Championships
https://stathead.com/tiny/9WYwQ - 22 of those teams won the Super Bowl.

13+ win Super Bowl teams with an MVP:
2022 KC Mahomes
2017 NE Brady
2015 CAR Newton
2013 DEN Manning
2009 IND Manning
2007 NE Brady
2005 SEA Alexander
2001 STL Warner
1999 STL Warner
1998 DEN Davis
1997 GB Favre
1996 GB Favre
1994 SF Young
1991 BUF Thomas
1988 SF Montana
1986 NYG Taylor
1984 MIA Marino
1983 WAS Theismann
1978 PIT Bradshaw
1968 BAL Morrall

13+ win Super Bowl winning teams with an MVP:
2022 KC Mahomes
1999 STL Warner
1998 DEN Davis
1996 GB Favre
1994 SF Young
1988 SF Montana
1986 NYG Taylor
1978 PIT Bradshaw

Yoop wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 09:18

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 08:47

Aaron Rodgers: a hall of fame QB so individually good that he raises team expectations to Super Bowl or bust every year.

Aaron Rodgers: such a vulnerable product of his surroundings that having the league’s best wide receiver plus two other perfectly decent NFL starting-caliber players at WR* leaves him woefully understaffed and unable to compete.

(*who have each gotten above average player contracts with new teams to continue being 2nd/3rd options in the passing game)

I disagree, up till MVS last season with us he couldn't run a route to save his bacon, and it was the same with Lazard, if these two could have separated on schedule Lafleur would have designed more 1st or second route progression reads for them

This is a fabricated anecdote to fit a narrative, nothing more.

Labrev wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 09:01

RingoCStarrQB wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 08:24

(Donald Driver, Greg Jennings and Jordy Nelson) plus Jermichael Finley and James Jones, they won the Super Bowl.

Finley was on IR that year. Nelson emerged as one of the top wideouts in the league the the year after the SuperBowl. He and Jones decent players in 2010, but not stars, and both of them struggled with drops early in their careers (including 2010, and even had a few in the Bowl game).

Jennings was, at the time, the only true star player at WR. Driver was established but well past his prime by that point.

Jennings and Nelson combined for 3 TD's

Nelson was 9 catches 140 yrds
Jennings 4 " 64
Jones " 50

Nelson was a star in 2010 SB

I thought 1 game didn't matter?

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 09:28

Yoop wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 09:18

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 08:47

Aaron Rodgers: a hall of fame QB so individually good that he raises team expectations to Super Bowl or bust every year.

Aaron Rodgers: such a vulnerable product of his surroundings that having the league’s best wide receiver plus two other perfectly decent NFL starting-caliber players at WR* leaves him woefully understaffed and unable to compete.

(*who have each gotten above average player contracts with new teams to continue being 2nd/3rd options in the passing game)

I disagree, up till MVS last season with us he couldn't run a route to save his bacon, and it was the same with Lazard, if these two could have separated on schedule Lafleur would have designed more 1st or second route progression reads for them

This is a fabricated anecdote to fit a narrative, nothing more.

BS it's the facts, you just can't deal with it

Yoop wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 09:32

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 09:28

Yoop wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 09:18

I disagree, up till MVS last season with us he couldn't run a route to save his bacon, and it was the same with Lazard, if these two could have separated on schedule Lafleur would have designed more 1st or second route progression reads for them

This is a fabricated anecdote to fit a narrative, nothing more.

BS it's the facts, you just can't deal with it

It's far from facts. It's your warped sense of hero worship projecting to your WR evaluations. It wouldn't fit your narrative to say these were fine #2/3 receivers and paired with Adams they made a more than adequate receiving corp. Receivers as you describe do not get $10 million and $11 million per year.

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

17 Mar 2023 09:22

Just curious. If we weren’t in such a terrible cap situation, caused by the GM might I add, would you sign MVS or Lazard to the contracts they got.

Probably not. Definitely not both of them. It depends on the situation for either of them.

Look, MVS is a 3rd option with specialized skills (deep threat) who we tried to make our second option. Lazard is a 3rd option with specialized skills (blocking/size/possession) who we tried to make our second option. We had to rotate their play time depending on need and situation. It helped make us more predictable. The Chiefs' top weapon is Kelce. They signed JuJu Smith-Schister to a 1-year $10M contract to be a possession guy and MVS to a 3-year $30M contract to be their deep threat. Having a more well-rounded second option in JuJu unlocked MVS' correct role. It worked. MVS essentially tied his career best season and played a role in an MVP QB's offense and Super Bowl win.

Lazard is being signed by the Jets to be their likely third option. They have a #1 in Wilson. Elijah Moore is likely their second weapon, though he might play most in the slot. And Lazard adds a bigger, physical blocking and possession option. Because their top two guys are skinny/small, it makes sense to change up the roster. They signed him basically for the money they were paying Corey Davis to disappoint (and I expect he'll be released or traded). Both of their top 2 guys are playing on rookie contracts, so they have some money to spend at the position without unbalancing their cap picture. His fit in that offense makes sense.

So in short I would sign each of the contracts these guys signed for the teams that signed them. I think both signings fit for them. But I wouldn't bring them back, necessarily, to Green Bay on those contracts.

We drafted Watson in part because he is both guys in one. He is a big physical 210 pound player. And he is a deep threat. We can run the offense with him in the MVS role and with him in the Lazard role. We have replaced our two 3rd options that we tried to make 2nd options with one 1st option that can do both. We need Doubs and the remaining rostered guys to fill in some of the Adams roles--not ability level, but roles--the quicker passes, the good releases, the well-rounded player who can line up wide or in the slot. That's why I think we both want JSN to join the corps and even things out. But both Lazard and MVS became obsolete to the Packers team when Watson showed up.

Sorry for the long answer to a simple question, but I guess we should expect this from me by now.

some are happy with one super bowl orchestrated by the previous GM.

some think that GMs should be judged by their own words of "when you have a HOF QB, the expectation is SB".

Some are content with Phillip Rivers style regular season success in the playoffs and big flops in the playoffs when you have a HOF QB.

Some think a GM should be judged against other GMs that were not gifted with HOF QBs and Back to back MVPs, some think he should be judged against other GMs who had that same great fortune.

Simple differences.