Packers Huddle

Yoop wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 18:43

Drj820 wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 18:33

The list is long even recently, Matt Ryan, Nick Foles, cam newton, kaepernick, joe Flacco…it goes on and on haha

your definition of average, and mine have no comparison, there isn't a average one in that bunch.

Oh ok

Drj820 wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 19:11

Yoop wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 18:43

Drj820 wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 18:33

The list is long even recently, Matt Ryan, Nick Foles, cam newton, kaepernick, joe Flacco…it goes on and on haha

your definition of average, and mine have no comparison, there isn't a average one in that bunch.

Oh ok

Yeah, with you on this one.

…although I’ll give credit for Ryan having a few seasons of above average play - even an MVP year - but, for most of his career, he was an average QB despite having an abundance of offensive talent around him.

With all of this time off to sulk after losing back to back games to the Lions and Raiders, LaCoach was caught web surfing looking for more reasons why complementary football is more important than offensive line play, sound blocking and tackling, clock management, intelligent play calling, and a balanced running and passing attack.

Average QBs to make the SB in my lifetime.

1996 - Mike Tomzack (Steelers)
1998 - Chris Chandler (Falcons)
2000 - Kerry Collins (Giants)
2000 - Trent Dilfer (Ravens)
2002 - Brad Johnson (Bucs)
2003 - Jake Delhomme (Panthers)
2006 - Rex Grossman (Bears)
2012 - Joe Flacco (Ravens)
2012 - Kaepernick (49ers)
2015 - Cam Newton (Panthers)
2015 - Manning / Osweiler (Broncos)
2017 - Nick Foles (Eagles)
2018 - Jared Goff (Rams)
2019 - Jimmy G (49ers)

Yeah. A lot of average QBs make it to the SB.

go pak go wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 21:14

Average QBs to make the SB in my lifetime.

1996 - Mike Tomzack (Steelers)
1998 - Chris Chandler (Falcons)
2000 - Kerry Collins (Giants)
2000 - Trent Dilfer (Ravens)
2002 - Brad Johnson (Bucs)
2003 - Jake Delhomme (Panthers)
2006 - Rex Grossman (Bears)
2012 - Joe Flacco (Ravens)
2012 - Kaepernick (49ers)
2015 - Cam Newton (Panthers)
2015 - Manning / Osweiler (Broncos)
2017 - Nick Foles (Eagles)
2018 - Jared Goff (Rams)
2019 - Jimmy G (49ers)

Yeah. A lot of average QBs make it to the SB.

Cam Newton shouldn't be on the list.
He won the mvp in 2015.

Yoop wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 18:43

Drj820 wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 18:33

The list is long even recently, Matt Ryan, Nick Foles, cam newton, kaepernick, joe Flacco…it goes on and on haha

your definition of average, and mine have no comparison, there isn't a average one in that bunch.

Matt Ryan was better than the others on this list.

bud fox wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 21:37

go pak go wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 21:14

Average QBs to make the SB in my lifetime.

1996 - Mike Tomzack (Steelers)
1998 - Chris Chandler (Falcons)
2000 - Kerry Collins (Giants)
2000 - Trent Dilfer (Ravens)
2002 - Brad Johnson (Bucs)
2003 - Jake Delhomme (Panthers)
2006 - Rex Grossman (Bears)
2012 - Joe Flacco (Ravens)
2012 - Kaepernick (49ers)
2015 - Cam Newton (Panthers)
2015 - Manning / Osweiler (Broncos)
2017 - Nick Foles (Eagles)
2018 - Jared Goff (Rams)
2019 - Jimmy G (49ers)

Yeah. A lot of average QBs make it to the SB.

Cam Newton shouldn't be on the list.
He won the mvp in 2015.

So? He did play in the SB in 2015.

There should be an asterisk for 1996 - Tomzack. Neil O'Donnell was the starter in that game. Pitt had 2 average QBs that year.

I never thought of Matt Ryan as anything more than a serviceable starter, that for much of his career had great coaching (Lafleur and Shanahan on that staff), great weapons around him (Julio, sanu, roddy white, Tony G), and a decent run game majority of his career.

Pugger wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 23:01

bud fox wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 21:37

go pak go wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 21:14

Average QBs to make the SB in my lifetime.

1996 - Mike Tomzack (Steelers)
1998 - Chris Chandler (Falcons)
2000 - Kerry Collins (Giants)
2000 - Trent Dilfer (Ravens)
2002 - Brad Johnson (Bucs)
2003 - Jake Delhomme (Panthers)
2006 - Rex Grossman (Bears)
2012 - Joe Flacco (Ravens)
2012 - Kaepernick (49ers)
2015 - Cam Newton (Panthers)
2015 - Manning / Osweiler (Broncos)
2017 - Nick Foles (Eagles)
2018 - Jared Goff (Rams)
2019 - Jimmy G (49ers)

Yeah. A lot of average QBs make it to the SB.

Cam Newton shouldn't be on the list.
He won the mvp in 2015.

So? He did play in the SB in 2015.

There should be an asterisk for 1996 - Tomzack. Neil O'Donnell was the starter in that game. Pitt had 2 average QBs that year.

You can't call an mvp an average qb.

Scott4Pack wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 11:13

And just look at Jared Goff. He had moments earlier in his career. But he's really only blossomed since going to Detroit under Campbell. Now, he's literally a very solid QB. Not really spectacular. Just consistent at doing well enough. And that really works for them. If that's what Love turns out to be, we'll be just fine.

Goff was a very good quarterback for the Rams in 2017 and '18 as well.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 18:25

Goff, Jimmy G, Jalen Hurts, Trent Dilfer.

Tons of average qbs have made a SB, less have won one.

Dilfer is the only one out of that list who actually performed at an average level in the season he made the Super Bowl though.

APB wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 20:17

Yeah, with you on this one.

…although I’ll give credit for Ryan having a few seasons of above average play - even an MVP year - but, for most of his career, he was an average QB despite having an abundance of offensive talent around him.

Ryan had a passer rating of 117.1 in 2016 when the Falcons made the Super Bowl. That's far from being an average quarterback.

go pak go wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 21:14

Average QBs to make the SB in my lifetime.

1996 - Mike Tomzack (Steelers)
1998 - Chris Chandler (Falcons)
2000 - Kerry Collins (Giants)
2000 - Trent Dilfer (Ravens)
2002 - Brad Johnson (Bucs)
2003 - Jake Delhomme (Panthers)
2006 - Rex Grossman (Bears)
2012 - Joe Flacco (Ravens)
2012 - Kaepernick (49ers)
2015 - Cam Newton (Panthers)
2015 - Manning / Osweiler (Broncos)
2017 - Nick Foles (Eagles)
2018 - Jared Goff (Rams)
2019 - Jimmy G (49ers)

Yeah. A lot of average QBs make it to the SB.

You're mistakenly considering a career average quarterback making it to the Super Bowl while playing very well for a season as prove for it being possible to make it to Super Bowl with average QB play. Those are two different things though.

Out of the list you provided the 1995 Steelers, 2000 Giants and Bucs, 2003 Panthers, 2006 Bears, 2012 Ravens and the 2015 Broncos qualify for having an average QB at best and still making it to the Super Bowl. That's only seven teams out of 46 though.

I think some here rank QB's in two category's, very good, ( about 5 or so currently) and all the rest are average.

unless a QB slings multiple season of above 100 QBR there average, to me thats a poor validation, so much depends on the supporting cast that QB play has it's ups end downs do to just that, imo if they perform well with a good supporting cast it makes them certainly better then average, to call Ryan average is only a attempt to win this argument.

CWIMM wrote: ↑

16 Oct 2023 05:45

Scott4Pack wrote: ↑

15 Oct 2023 11:13

And just look at Jared Goff. He had moments earlier in his career. But he's really only blossomed since going to Detroit under Campbell. Now, he's literally a very solid QB. Not really spectacular. Just consistent at doing well enough. And that really works for them. If that's what Love turns out to be, we'll be just fine.

Goff was a very good quarterback for the Rams in 2017 and '18 as well.

He was statistically good those seasons courtesy an exceptional head coach and supporting-cast on offense. A lot of folks back then who are knowledgeable on this stuff said that McVay was holding his hand a lot in how he called the offense.

They traded him away to get Stafford for a reason; you don't ship a good young passer out of town for an aging vet QB with an injury history.

People really struggle with the term average.

Average means you don't lose games for your team, but you ceratinly don't elevate your team to win either. Average means a good day in your passing attack is 250 yards and your offense can reliably put up 24 points if needed. Average QBs will look significantly better when paired with a great WR and see a huge drop off when not playing with the great WR.

Jimmy G, Kerry Collins, Jake Delhomme are the epitome of average.

Guys like Brad Jonhson, Trent Dilfer, Osweiler/Manning are below average but still likely in the serviceable category. Meaning their defense had to be so freaking good that it almost didn't matter who was at QB. As long as they can take the snap and not screw things up terribly.

go pak go wrote: ↑

16 Oct 2023 09:37

Meaning their defense had to be so freaking good that it literally didn't matter who was at QB. As long as they can take the snap.

This is where you lose me. I don't disagree with most of the names you included in your average QB list. Without having time right now to look up the playoff numbers of those QB's, I would bet that even those guys put up good numbers, were accurate with the football, and did not commit turnovers when it mattered most. In other words, they may have had average careers, but they stepped up and were good during crunch time. Eli Manning is probably the poster child for what I am describing.

You frame it as though any QB with a pulse could have made those machines go and it isn't true. If those guys had thrown dumb picks because of bad decision making/accuracy issues, they could have easily ruined their teams' chances. Those QB's deserve more credit than you're giving them.

Papa John wrote: ↑

16 Oct 2023 09:53

go pak go wrote: ↑

16 Oct 2023 09:37

Meaning their defense had to be so freaking good that it literally didn't matter who was at QB. As long as they can take the snap.

This is where you lose me. I don't disagree with most of the names you included in your average QB list. Without having time right now to look up the playoff numbers of those QB's, I would bet that even those guys put up good numbers, were accurate with the football, and did not commit turnovers when it mattered most. In other words, they may have had average careers, but they stepped up and were good during crunch time. Eli Manning is probably the poster child for what I am describing.

You frame it as though any QB with a pulse could have made those machines go and it isn't true. Those QB's deserve more credit than you're giving them.

No. Any QB could have made the 2002 Bucs, 2000 Ravens and 2015 Broncos go. The defenses were that good. Take the snap. Hand it off to Alstott or watch your CB take a pick 6 to the house.

But the others do require competent QB play. Meaning they can move the chains at points during the game. Can be counted on to put up 24 points. Not "bad" or a guy with a pulse but certainly are not in your perinneal MVP top tier QB lineup either.

If only there was a word for someone who is not exceeding the bar, not elevating those around him, but also not a liability...oh wait. There is! It's called Average

I hope their ranking doesn't improve after this week then or it means we're really, really, really bad LOL

go pak go wrote: ↑

16 Oct 2023 09:37

People really struggle with the term average.

Average means you don't lose games for your team, but you ceratinly don't elevate your team to win either. Average means a good day in your passing attack is 250 yards and your offense can reliably put up 24 points if needed. Average QBs will look significantly better when paired with a great WR and see a huge drop off when not playing with the great WR.

Jimmy G, Kerry Collins, Jake Delhomme are the epitome of average.

Guys like Brad Jonhson, Trent Dilfer, Osweiler/Manning are below average. Meaning their defense had to be so freaking good that it literally didn't matter who was at QB. As long as they can take the snap.

thats the same mentality that says average QB's win SB's, CWIMM just pointed out and I agree, only a few have done that out of about 50

your just changing the playing field, there is no way anyone can call a player average simply based on a great supporting cast, or average because he didn't lose games.

lis, you and others 2 tier QB's, either there Aaron Rodgers good, or there Finley bad

and this is fine, but in my opinion it's extremely short sighted.

musclestang wrote: ↑

16 Oct 2023 11:26

I hope their ranking doesn't improve after this week then or it means we're really, really, really bad LOL

Well...

Yoop wrote: ↑

16 Oct 2023 12:13

go pak go wrote: ↑

16 Oct 2023 09:37

People really struggle with the term average.

Average means you don't lose games for your team, but you ceratinly don't elevate your team to win either. Average means a good day in your passing attack is 250 yards and your offense can reliably put up 24 points if needed. Average QBs will look significantly better when paired with a great WR and see a huge drop off when not playing with the great WR.

Jimmy G, Kerry Collins, Jake Delhomme are the epitome of average.

Guys like Brad Jonhson, Trent Dilfer, Osweiler/Manning are below average. Meaning their defense had to be so freaking good that it literally didn't matter who was at QB. As long as they can take the snap.

thats the same mentality that says average QB's win SB's, CWIMM just pointed out and I agree, only a few have done that out of about 50

your just changing the playing field, there is no way anyone can call a player average simply based on a great supporting cast, or average because he didn't lose games.

lis, you and others 2 tier QB's, either there Aaron Rodgers good, or there Finley bad

and this is fine, but in my opinion it's extremely short sighted.

No. I'm actually 3 - 5 tiering. Read the post.

High Level Tier
There is MVP level good (top 3 - 5)
There is clearly above average (good QBs) (top 5 - 7 some years and top 5-10 other years)

Servicable to Average Tier
There is average (usually top 11 to 18 or 20)
There is below average but can be serviceable (usually 18 to 24)

Liability Tier
Liability Tier - team loses because of you (usually 25 and below)

SB winning QB's can and always have come out of the top two tiers. The liability tier does not offer SB winners for perhaps one exception (the 2015 Broncos saw terrible QB play to end the season.)