Re: Do we even want Rodgers back?
Posted: 26 Jan 2022 20:20
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It's not a question of rather have. I know what player I would rather have in terms of pure ability. These debates turn irrationally emotional for no reason with this kind of talk.
This makes me nervous too. Who cares if Love sucks. The results will be the same; we won't be a championship contending team regardless. I know MLF says 22 isn't a rebuilding year but let's be honest...it should be.Drj820 wrote: ↑26 Jan 2022 19:23they are scared to lose him. It would be easy if they thought Love could play. They know who butters the biscuits in Green Bay.Foosball wrote: ↑26 Jan 2022 19:08LaFleur and Gutey are saying all the right things. And they have to at this stage.
I hope they realize they will never get more draft picks and players for Rodgers then this year. At some point they will have to move on.
Look at how Stafford is doing with the Rams. Other teams will think they can do the same or better with Rodgers. They will give up a lot to get him.
easy for us to take our medicine for a year as we move into the future. The front office has a lot of pride though. They know Rodgers keeps them employed, because Rodgers gets them to the postseason. For Lafleur, Rodgers gets him one of the best records to begin a career ever. For Gutey, Rodgers covers a multitude of sins...compared to what a Love can cover.go pak go wrote: ↑26 Jan 2022 20:24This makes me nervous too. Who cares if Love sucks. The results will be the same; we won't be a championship contending team regardless. I know MLF says 22 isn't a rebuilding year but let's be honest...it should be.Drj820 wrote: ↑26 Jan 2022 19:23they are scared to lose him. It would be easy if they thought Love could play. They know who butters the biscuits in Green Bay.Foosball wrote: ↑26 Jan 2022 19:08LaFleur and Gutey are saying all the right things. And they have to at this stage.
I hope they realize they will never get more draft picks and players for Rodgers then this year. At some point they will have to move on.
Look at how Stafford is doing with the Rams. Other teams will think they can do the same or better with Rodgers. They will give up a lot to get him.
Big yes to the bolded.texas wrote: ↑26 Jan 2022 21:26I don't think the chances of Rodgers winning a Super Bowl with a worse roster are 0. I think they're still decent. There are still enough reasonably common enough pathways that end with us winning a Super Bowl with Rodgers. He makes it more difficult in the playoffs with his tendency to go into playground mode, but it's not impossible to win with him, or to win with a team which is worse than the one we put out there this year.
Like I said, all it will take is for us to play the Cowboys, Bears, and then a &%$@ AFC team. Or get hit with the injury bug, get the 4th seed, and draw Washington and then go to play in some nice domed stadiums.
Or maybe MLF will figure out a way to do what I think needs to be the top priority and that is: find a way to take the game out of Rodgers' hands without allowing him to realize that the game is being taken out of his hands. The obvious way to do that is to pound the ball with AJ Dillon, but the problem is that he got hurt. For one thing, knowing how important he was to the gameplan should have prevented them from playing him on ST (which is another reason to fire Drayton and fire MLF is he doesn't fire Drayton). And also, we should probably find a Dillon backup, some guy who can pound the rock, in case Dillon gets hurt or needs a breather. Jones/Hill are not that guy.
Because honestly, this is really the only thing that matters. Rodgers gets us to the playoffs but then loses it for us, and rather than giving him another superstar WR who he won't throw to, we need to develop a gameplan which does not feature Rodgers, for those tough games.
salmar80 wrote: ↑26 Jan 2022 22:34Big yes to the bolded.texas wrote: ↑26 Jan 2022 21:26I don't think the chances of Rodgers winning a Super Bowl with a worse roster are 0. I think they're still decent. There are still enough reasonably common enough pathways that end with us winning a Super Bowl with Rodgers. He makes it more difficult in the playoffs with his tendency to go into playground mode, but it's not impossible to win with him, or to win with a team which is worse than the one we put out there this year.
Like I said, all it will take is for us to play the Cowboys, Bears, and then a &%$@ AFC team. Or get hit with the injury bug, get the 4th seed, and draw Washington and then go to play in some nice domed stadiums.
Or maybe MLF will figure out a way to do what I think needs to be the top priority and that is: find a way to take the game out of Rodgers' hands without allowing him to realize that the game is being taken out of his hands. The obvious way to do that is to pound the ball with AJ Dillon, but the problem is that he got hurt. For one thing, knowing how important he was to the gameplan should have prevented them from playing him on ST (which is another reason to fire Drayton and fire MLF is he doesn't fire Drayton). And also, we should probably find a Dillon backup, some guy who can pound the rock, in case Dillon gets hurt or needs a breather. Jones/Hill are not that guy.
Because honestly, this is really the only thing that matters. Rodgers gets us to the playoffs but then loses it for us, and rather than giving him another superstar WR who he won't throw to, we need to develop a gameplan which does not feature Rodgers, for those tough games.
We will not have as good of a roster in 2022 than in 2021. We may not need as strong of a one.
The 2021 one was an all-in roster that won 13 games despite horribly rotten injury luck and uncommonly and unexplainably bad STs. That's what an all-in roster gives you, more margin for error. But not unlimited margin. As we've seen, there's no roster that automatically wins it all.
If AR gets extended and stays, the 2022 roster won't be god-awful. Far from that. In fact, I'd predict an easyish playoff spot. The rest of the NFC North is in disarray. We would need a draft with some instant impact, and another find or two in cheap FA/trades. And way better injury luck.
Gutey has been plenty good enough at finding affordable talent. LaFleur went 13-3 twice without an all-in roster. His scheme has incredible variety and can mold to fit the talent at hand.
It is not out of the question we could make a push...
Seems to me a lot of people think we need to be heavy paper tiger favorites, or it's not worth the bother. Forgetting all about 2010, it seem they seek the emotional harbor of knowing either that we will win or we will lose. Bad news: It's the NFL, you never know. Unless you are da Bears, in which case you should know you still suck.
This is the type of language that rubs me the wrong way. "Rodgers gets him one of the best records to begin a career"Drj820 wrote: ↑26 Jan 2022 20:50easy for us to take our medicine for a year as we move into the future. The front office has a lot of pride though. They know Rodgers keeps them employed, because Rodgers gets them to the postseason. For Lafleur, Rodgers gets him one of the best records to begin a career ever.
So build a team that is successful without needing Rodgers...texas wrote: ↑26 Jan 2022 21:26I don't think the chances of Rodgers winning a Super Bowl with a worse roster are 0. I think they're still decent. There are still enough reasonably common enough pathways that end with us winning a Super Bowl with Rodgers. He makes it more difficult in the playoffs with his tendency to go into playground mode, but it's not impossible to win with him, or to win with a team which is worse than the one we put out there this year.
Like I said, all it will take is for us to play the Cowboys, Bears, and then a &%$@ AFC team. Or get hit with the injury bug, get the 4th seed, and draw Washington and then go to play in some nice domed stadiums.
Or maybe MLF will figure out a way to do what I think needs to be the top priority and that is: find a way to take the game out of Rodgers' hands without allowing him to realize that the game is being taken out of his hands. The obvious way to do that is to pound the ball with AJ Dillon, but the problem is that he got hurt. For one thing, knowing how important he was to the gameplan should have prevented them from playing him on ST (which is another reason to fire Drayton and fire MLF is he doesn't fire Drayton). And also, we should probably find a Dillon backup, some guy who can pound the rock, in case Dillon gets hurt or needs a breather. Jones/Hill are not that guy.
Because honestly, this is really the only thing that matters. Rodgers gets us to the playoffs but then loses it for us, and rather than giving him another superstar WR who he won't throw to, we need to develop a gameplan which does not feature Rodgers, for those tough games.
Dude the QB position affects more wins than any other position. Are we a playoff team in 2019 or 20 without Rodgers? Honestly, the division is so bad...we probably are unless STs sabotages the whole season like it did the playoffs. But no way in heck are we a 13 win team without Rodgers...good team? Maybe. 13 wins and have the coach off to a record start? Heck no.go pak go wrote: ↑27 Jan 2022 06:16This is the type of language that rubs me the wrong way. "Rodgers gets him one of the best records to begin a career"Drj820 wrote: ↑26 Jan 2022 20:50easy for us to take our medicine for a year as we move into the future. The front office has a lot of pride though. They know Rodgers keeps them employed, because Rodgers gets them to the postseason. For Lafleur, Rodgers gets him one of the best records to begin a career ever.
First - it is THE best record to begin a career. MLF reached 39 wins before any other coach.
But overall it's this "Rodgers did it and was automatic". Not at all. 2019 we won 13 games with a Rodgers who was a an 8th to 14th rated QB (very modest/average QB). We won in 2019 thanks to our defense, run game and simple pass game. MLF deserves far more credit for 2019's success. 2020, yes. That was largely elevated on Rodgers stupendous play but 2021 again saw great defense, great grit, great running attacks and efficiency until about Week 10 - Week 17.
Was Rodgers part of this? Absolutely but this type of language is not representative of the 2019 - 2021 GBPs.
It was a damn good football team.
And saying "we will see how this Packers team does in 2022 without Rodgers" is not fair in the slightest. It all depends on the level of QB Love is as well as how much of the team we can keep together. The expectation should be we will take a considerable step backwards.
Now that all being said, we have seen some consistent issues from our team in the post season:
1. Z'darius Smith can't defend the run to save his life
2. Kevin King chose the wrong time to have the all time worst game of his career.
3. Rodgers doesn't step up when the moment is huge
4. AJ Dillon is always absent in our losses
5. Aaron Jones does bone-headed plays (I wish it was Jones who got hurt and AJ Dillon who was healthy vs SF)
6. MLF shrinks in the big moment
I'm not arguing any of that - that Rodgers deserves a ton of credit.Drj820 wrote: ↑27 Jan 2022 06:20
Dude the QB position affects more wins than any other position. Are we a playoff team in 2019 or 20 without Rodgers? Honestly, the division is so bad...we probably are unless STs sabotages the whole season like it did the playoffs. But no way in heck are we a 13 win team without Rodgers...good team? Maybe. 13 wins and have the coach off to a record start? Heck no.
And Lafleur knows this too. Everyone does.
to me our offense declined this year some over 2020, probably because even Tae is defendable, specially given all the film for DC to study and design coverages to stop him.go pak go wrote: ↑27 Jan 2022 06:16This is the type of language that rubs me the wrong way. "Rodgers gets him one of the best records to begin a career"Drj820 wrote: ↑26 Jan 2022 20:50easy for us to take our medicine for a year as we move into the future. The front office has a lot of pride though. They know Rodgers keeps them employed, because Rodgers gets them to the postseason. For Lafleur, Rodgers gets him one of the best records to begin a career ever.
First - it is THE best record to begin a career. MLF reached 39 wins before any other coach.
But overall it's this "Rodgers did it and was automatic". Not at all. 2019 we won 13 games with a Rodgers who was a an 8th to 14th rated QB (very modest/average QB). We won in 2019 thanks to our defense, run game and simple pass game. MLF deserves far more credit for 2019's success. 2020, yes. That was largely elevated on Rodgers stupendous play but 2021 again saw great defense, great grit, great running attacks and efficiency until about Week 10 - Week 17.
Was Rodgers part of this? Absolutely but this type of language is not representative of the 2019 - 2021 GBPs.
It was a damn good football team.
And saying "we will see how this Packers team does in 2022 without Rodgers" is not fair in the slightest. It all depends on the level of QB Love is as well as how much of the team we can keep together. The expectation should be we will take a considerable step backwards.
Now that all being said, we have seen some consistent issues from our team in the post season:
1. Z'darius Smith can't defend the run to save his life
2. Kevin King chose the wrong time to have the all time worst game of his career.
3. Rodgers doesn't step up when the moment is huge
4. AJ Dillon is always absent in our losses
5. Aaron Jones does bone-headed plays (I wish it was Jones who got hurt and AJ Dillon who was healthy vs SF)
6. MLF shrinks in the big moment
aHHHH, the 2015 to 2018 stretch problems where about more then just Rodgers, we had terrible defense, and where rebuilding the WR position with very raw recruits, and McCarthy practically refused to run the ball, hard to blame Rodgers for not being able to carry that crap.go pak go wrote: ↑27 Jan 2022 06:49I'm not arguing any of that - that Rodgers deserves a ton of credit.Drj820 wrote: ↑27 Jan 2022 06:20
Dude the QB position affects more wins than any other position. Are we a playoff team in 2019 or 20 without Rodgers? Honestly, the division is so bad...we probably are unless STs sabotages the whole season like it did the playoffs. But no way in heck are we a 13 win team without Rodgers...good team? Maybe. 13 wins and have the coach off to a record start? Heck no.
And Lafleur knows this too. Everyone does.
It's just the absolutist language I disagree with. I can turn it around and say MLF and the Gute/MLF philosophy carried Rodgers to 39 wins too.
Because I saw what he did from 2015 - 2018 without that philosophy.
Let's just be honest with the language and say both were great for each other until the postseason.
I know yoop. That's what I said.Yoop wrote: ↑27 Jan 2022 06:57aHHHH, the 2015 to 2018 stretch problems where about more then just Rodgers, we had terrible defense, and where rebuilding the WR position with very raw recruits, and McCarthy practically refused to run the ball, hard to blame Rodgers for not being able to carry that crap.go pak go wrote: ↑27 Jan 2022 06:49I'm not arguing any of that - that Rodgers deserves a ton of credit.Drj820 wrote: ↑27 Jan 2022 06:20
Dude the QB position affects more wins than any other position. Are we a playoff team in 2019 or 20 without Rodgers? Honestly, the division is so bad...we probably are unless STs sabotages the whole season like it did the playoffs. But no way in heck are we a 13 win team without Rodgers...good team? Maybe. 13 wins and have the coach off to a record start? Heck no.
And Lafleur knows this too. Everyone does.
It's just the absolutist language I disagree with. I can turn it around and say MLF and the Gute/MLF philosophy carried Rodgers to 39 wins too.
Because I saw what he did from 2015 - 2018 without that philosophy.
Let's just be honest with the language and say both were great for each other until the postseason.
I guess the language may be triggering you, but I absolulety believe it is true.go pak go wrote: ↑27 Jan 2022 06:49I'm not arguing any of that - that Rodgers deserves a ton of credit.Drj820 wrote: ↑27 Jan 2022 06:20
Dude the QB position affects more wins than any other position. Are we a playoff team in 2019 or 20 without Rodgers? Honestly, the division is so bad...we probably are unless STs sabotages the whole season like it did the playoffs. But no way in heck are we a 13 win team without Rodgers...good team? Maybe. 13 wins and have the coach off to a record start? Heck no.
And Lafleur knows this too. Everyone does.
It's just the absolutist language I disagree with. I can turn it around and say MLF and the Gute/MLF philosophy carried Rodgers to 39 wins too.
Because I saw what he did from 2015 - 2018 without that philosophy.
Let's just be honest with the language and say both were great for each other until the postseason.
Oh agreed. People will always want the easiest route. It is why I still have the Ted Thompson avatar. I have so much respect for that man because even McCarthy said the same thing from January to March 2008 how Favre was the best in the league and he would do anything to have him back.Drj820 wrote: ↑27 Jan 2022 07:12
Its why Lafleur really wants Rodgers back. He knows his best chance to have a great record and look really good is with the reigning MVP. Any coach would know that, saying that out loud is not a slight on Lafleur. Reid knows it with Mahommes, McDermont knows it with Allen, Taylor knows it with Burrow. Its not taking anything from Lafleur, Reid, McDermont, or Taylor...its just revealing of how important the QB position is and much it impacts winning and losing.
It's not too tough. My stance has always been the same.
I too respect Ted Thompson. He was a great GM for many years. But I do not agree with you that the data points that previewed what Rdogers may become are similar to what Love has shown us he might become. I do agree a coach would prefer the known commodity, makes total sense.go pak go wrote: ↑27 Jan 2022 07:20Oh agreed. People will always want the easiest route. It is why I still have the Ted Thompson avatar. I have so much respect for that man because even McCarthy said the same thing from January to March 2008 how Favre was the best in the league and he would do anything to have him back.Drj820 wrote: ↑27 Jan 2022 07:12
Its why Lafleur really wants Rodgers back. He knows his best chance to have a great record and look really good is with the reigning MVP. Any coach would know that, saying that out loud is not a slight on Lafleur. Reid knows it with Mahommes, McDermont knows it with Allen, Taylor knows it with Burrow. Its not taking anything from Lafleur, Reid, McDermont, or Taylor...its just revealing of how important the QB position is and much it impacts winning and losing.
I don't know what would have happened had Thompson not been in the room in August when Favre flew back in. Rodgers was incredibly unknown in 2008. It took courage to take the hard path and move on. It nearly blew up for them too and cost them their jobs in 2009 when Favre made the Packers pay.
I want MLF and Gute to do the hard job. I want them to not take the easy way out. I know what the easy way will likely get us. 11 wins, North division titles and heartbreak in January.