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Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 01 Oct 2023 13:53
by wizard 87
I get a kick out of people and the Mike Wahle stuff. The guy was a decent OG for years, would love his take on the OL but taking his word about our defense is like asking your proctologist about your upcoming root canal. Seriously the man is trying to get clicks but he's not an expert on defense per se.
So here is my little take on this mess. go pak go is dead on, GB has had 5-6 really good defensive teams in 30 years plus. It's just never been a thing.
Let's keep in mind our #1 CB is down with a back, the #2 is on PUP. Our #3 who in reality is a slot corner is playing number 1 and struggling and behind that the talent drops to JV. Ford is an ST player, not a starting safety. Savage is hot/cold
On top of that, the offense can't run the football, Dillonberry runs like he's wearing Cemet shows and Jones hammy is all kinds of out. So now your D gets worn out because they see too many snaps.
So you're going to adjust your front how and be more aggressive? Play man-up? Nope, Man over? Yikes! You are stuck playing that vanilla zone out of need because you don't have the horses to do otherwise. If you blitz too much we see what happens. Now let me be clear, I do NOT like Berry, awful DC but under the circumstances what the hell does he do?
You are short on cash in cap because of, well we all know why. Were short, so going and filling holes this season is mostly not doable. Fire Berry, yeah that's great but who's on staff that's going to take our 80/20 ground beef and make filet mignon?? Hell, not sure you could make chicken fried steak out of it.
This has all the looks of a problem that gets solved in January, new DC, a better cap situation, and a different scheme. ( I hope)
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 01 Oct 2023 14:15
by TheSkeptic
wizard 87 wrote: ↑01 Oct 2023 13:53
I get a kick out of people and the Mike Wahle stuff. The guy was a decent OG for years, would love his take on the OL but taking his word about our defense is like asking your proctologist about your upcoming root canal. Seriously the man is trying to get clicks but he's not an expert on defense per se.
So here is my little take on this mess. go pak go is dead on, GB has had 5-6 really good defensive teams in 30 years plus. It's just never been a thing.
Let's keep in mind our #1 CB is down with a back, the #2 is on PUP. Our #3 who in reality is a slot corner is playing number 1 and struggling and behind that the talent drops to JV. Ford is an ST player, not a starting safety. Savage is hot/cold
On top of that, the offense can't run the football, Dillonberry runs like he's wearing Cemet shows and Jones hammy is all kinds of out. So now your D gets worn out because they see too many snaps.
So you're going to adjust your front how and be more aggressive? Play man-up? Nope, Man over? Yikes! You are stuck playing that vanilla zone out of need because you don't have the horses to do otherwise. If you blitz too much we see what happens. Now let me be clear, I do NOT like Berry, awful DC but under the circumstances what the hell does he do?
You are short on cash in cap because of, well we all know why. Were short, so going and filling holes this season is mostly not doable. Fire Berry, yeah that's great but who's on staff that's going to take our 80/20 ground beef and make filet mignon?? Hell, not sure you could make chicken fried steak out of it.
This has all the looks of a problem that gets solved in January, new DC, a better cap situation, and a different scheme. ( I hope)
However, Alexander getting healthy and Stokes coming off PUP would help a lot.
MLF may soon give up on Dillon and Wilson may be an upgrade over him. Jones will get healthy. And the O may stay on the field and give the D a rest.
Not saying that this will fix everything BUT despite everything this team is still 2-2 with a very winnable game coming up and then a bye week and several players getting healthy.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 02 Oct 2023 10:21
by Pckfn23
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 02 Oct 2023 10:29
by go pak go
TheSkeptic wrote: ↑01 Oct 2023 14:15
wizard 87 wrote: ↑01 Oct 2023 13:53
I get a kick out of people and the Mike Wahle stuff. The guy was a decent OG for years, would love his take on the OL but taking his word about our defense is like asking your proctologist about your upcoming root canal. Seriously the man is trying to get clicks but he's not an expert on defense per se.
So here is my little take on this mess. go pak go is dead on, GB has had 5-6 really good defensive teams in 30 years plus. It's just never been a thing.
Let's keep in mind our #1 CB is down with a back, the #2 is on PUP. Our #3 who in reality is a slot corner is playing number 1 and struggling and behind that the talent drops to JV. Ford is an ST player, not a starting safety. Savage is hot/cold
On top of that, the offense can't run the football, Dillonberry runs like he's wearing Cemet shows and Jones hammy is all kinds of out. So now your D gets worn out because they see too many snaps.
So you're going to adjust your front how and be more aggressive? Play man-up? Nope, Man over? Yikes! You are stuck playing that vanilla zone out of need because you don't have the horses to do otherwise. If you blitz too much we see what happens. Now let me be clear, I do NOT like Berry, awful DC but under the circumstances what the hell does he do?
You are short on cash in cap because of, well we all know why. Were short, so going and filling holes this season is mostly not doable. Fire Berry, yeah that's great but who's on staff that's going to take our 80/20 ground beef and make filet mignon?? Hell, not sure you could make chicken fried steak out of it.
This has all the looks of a problem that gets solved in January, new DC, a better cap situation, and a different scheme. ( I hope)
However, Alexander getting healthy and Stokes coming off PUP would help a lot.
I have a hard time buying the return of Stokes and Alexander will instill confidence in me believing our run defense allowing less than 150 yards per game.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 02 Oct 2023 10:46
by TheSkeptic
go pak go wrote: ↑02 Oct 2023 10:29
TheSkeptic wrote: ↑01 Oct 2023 14:15
wizard 87 wrote: ↑01 Oct 2023 13:53
I get a kick out of people and the Mike Wahle stuff. The guy was a decent OG for years, would love his take on the OL but taking his word about our defense is like asking your proctologist about your upcoming root canal. Seriously the man is trying to get clicks but he's not an expert on defense per se.
So here is my little take on this mess. go pak go is dead on, GB has had 5-6 really good defensive teams in 30 years plus. It's just never been a thing.
Let's keep in mind our #1 CB is down with a back, the #2 is on PUP. Our #3 who in reality is a slot corner is playing number 1 and struggling and behind that the talent drops to JV. Ford is an ST player, not a starting safety. Savage is hot/cold
On top of that, the offense can't run the football, Dillonberry runs like he's wearing Cemet shows and Jones hammy is all kinds of out. So now your D gets worn out because they see too many snaps.
So you're going to adjust your front how and be more aggressive? Play man-up? Nope, Man over? Yikes! You are stuck playing that vanilla zone out of need because you don't have the horses to do otherwise. If you blitz too much we see what happens. Now let me be clear, I do NOT like Berry, awful DC but under the circumstances what the hell does he do?
You are short on cash in cap because of, well we all know why. Were short, so going and filling holes this season is mostly not doable. Fire Berry, yeah that's great but who's on staff that's going to take our 80/20 ground beef and make filet mignon?? Hell, not sure you could make chicken fried steak out of it.
This has all the looks of a problem that gets solved in January, new DC, a better cap situation, and a different scheme. ( I hope)
However, Alexander getting healthy and Stokes coming off PUP would help a lot.
I have a hard time buying the return of Stokes and Alexander will instill confidence in me believing our run defense allowing less than 150 yards per game.
If the D gives up fewer than 10 points, I really don't care if they give up 150 yards
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 02 Oct 2023 11:41
by LombardiTime
Thanks for posting.
It really looks like if the Lions wanted to throw the ball, they could have gotten 5 yards against the soft, off CB coverage.
Instead, they just said Nah, we'll just run it up the gut for 7 yards.
Just a really depressing defensive look all the way around.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 02 Oct 2023 12:57
by Yoop
wizard 87 wrote: ↑01 Oct 2023 13:53
I get a kick out of people and the Mike Wahle stuff. The guy was a decent OG for years, would love his take on the OL but taking his word about our defense is like asking your proctologist about your upcoming root canal. Seriously the man is trying to get clicks but he's not an expert on defense per se.
So here is my little take on this mess. go pak go is dead on, GB has had 5-6 really good defensive teams in 30 years plus. It's just never been a thing.
Let's keep in mind our #1 CB is down with a back, the #2 is on PUP. Our #3 who in reality is a slot corner is playing number 1 and struggling and behind that the talent drops to JV. Ford is an ST player, not a starting safety. Savage is hot/cold
On top of that, the offense can't run the football, Dillonberry runs like he's wearing Cemet shows and Jones hammy is all kinds of out. So now your D gets worn out because they see too many snaps.
So you're going to adjust your front how and be more aggressive? Play man-up? Nope, Man over? Yikes! You are stuck playing that vanilla zone out of need because you don't have the horses to do otherwise. If you blitz too much we see what happens. Now let me be clear, I do NOT like Berry, awful DC but under the circumstances what the hell does he do?
You are short on cash in cap because of, well we all know why. Were short, so going and filling holes this season is mostly not doable. Fire Berry, yeah that's great but who's on staff that's going to take our 80/20 ground beef and make filet mignon?? Hell, not sure you could make chicken fried steak out of it.
This has all the looks of a problem that gets solved in January, new DC, a better cap situation, and a different scheme. ( I hope)
I thought I had responded to you Wiz, I think one of these meany Mods deleted my post ( Kidding)
I get what your saying, here's my explanation that obviously never made it outside the confines of my miniscule brain lol.
I think what we've done on defense is common for high power quick strike point producing offenses, which is get a lead and go to some form of prevention, I think it's really hard to put together the talent needed to play aggressive, if ya lack the talent then ya depend on the best defenders you have to cover up the sins of the weaker ones and simply attempt to limit the opponents production, specially the big plays.
always been my contention that building a great aggressive defense is the most difficult part of building a team, when ya figure the hit rate of draft picks, and that any ONE weak defensive spot will get the attention of even the most dim witted DC and be targeted, specially the secondary then to me it's a waste of resources as we've done attempting to build this defense the last decade, specially the way it led to the decline of the offense and ST's
true a great DC can devise schemes and deceptions to combat new passing and run schemes, imo those cords are far and few, and even those guys give up big plays and lose because opposing teams pick apart the weak positions, my point is playing aggressive can be disastrous if ya lack the talent to play that way.
not the case the last 4 years here with us, we've had good enough secondary to be more aggressive, so our DC's imho have no excuses to play such passive coverage, so imo talent should free up the DC to unleash his dogs, and let them attack
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 02 Oct 2023 14:37
by APB
Ah, Ok Joe. If you're already exploring everything then we can all rest easy...
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 04 Oct 2023 18:36
by BF004
Things gunna be different they said.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 04 Oct 2023 22:19
by lupedafiasco
APB wrote: ↑02 Oct 2023 14:37
Ah, Ok Joe. If you're already exploring everything then we can all rest easy...
You are what you emphasize.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 04 Oct 2023 22:24
by Crazylegs Starks
Even Gilbert Brown is ripping Barry:
https://wisportsheroics.com/green-bay-p ... oit-lions/
Every Monday morning, Brown appears on The Earl Ingram Show for his segment “Under the Helmet with the Gravedigger.” Host Earl Ingram asked Brown about what he thinks went wrong for the Packers against the Lions. Brown replied:
“The Detroit Lions have heat for us. They playing their best game against us because they have never been in this position before. So it’s a different game. We got beat up front so bad that I am embarrassed. Don’t put nothing on Jordan Love. Don’t put nothing on the running backs. Don’t put nothing on the defensive backs. Don’t put nothing on the linebackers. We got beat between the tackles like mama came down the stairs and caught you doing something you had no business doing. We got embarrassed at home, up front, period.”
Ingram then asked Brown about what he would say to the defense if he had been one of the coaches. Brown responded:
“Here’s the thing, Earl. You sitting up there watching the game, you see the scheme. You see what the Lions are trying to do, and defensively, defensive line, me and Santana [Dotson] are sitting there watching the game. And sometimes, things happen where it’s like, either you got to be coached up, or your ability has to be better. It was lose and contain, they were getting two-hatted or scooped blocked, and you got to ask yourself, ‘If you’re getting coached up, how does that happen?’ Are these guys that much better than our defensive line that their scheme of blocking beating our defensive line like that?”
He later said:
“They are getting embarrassed, and I hate to say that because I love me some Kenny Clark, I love me some TJ, I love all them boys, but they got their butts kicked.”
On how he would have reacted as a coach:
“If I’m the defensive line coach, and I walk into that meeting room, I’m losing my job. From what I saw, the things that they were doing were things that can be fixed.”
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 05 Oct 2023 05:47
by Yoop
Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑04 Oct 2023 22:24
Even Gilbert Brown is ripping Barry:
https://wisportsheroics.com/green-bay-p ... oit-lions/
Every Monday morning, Brown appears on The Earl Ingram Show for his segment “Under the Helmet with the Gravedigger.” Host Earl Ingram asked Brown about what he thinks went wrong for the Packers against the Lions. Brown replied:
“The Detroit Lions have heat for us. They playing their best game against us because they have never been in this position before. So it’s a different game. We got beat up front so bad that I am embarrassed. Don’t put nothing on Jordan Love. Don’t put nothing on the running backs. Don’t put nothing on the defensive backs. Don’t put nothing on the linebackers. We got beat between the tackles like mama came down the stairs and caught you doing something you had no business doing. We got embarrassed at home, up front, period.”
Ingram then asked Brown about what he would say to the defense if he had been one of the coaches. Brown responded:
“Here’s the thing, Earl. You sitting up there watching the game, you see the scheme. You see what the Lions are trying to do, and defensively, defensive line, me and Santana [Dotson] are sitting there watching the game. And sometimes, things happen where it’s like, either you got to be coached up, or your ability has to be better. It was lose and contain, they were getting two-hatted or scooped blocked, and you got to ask yourself, ‘If you’re getting coached up, how does that happen?’ Are these guys that much better than our defensive line that their scheme of blocking beating our defensive line like that?”
He later said:
“They are getting embarrassed, and I hate to say that because I love me some Kenny Clark, I love me some TJ, I love all them boys, but they got their butts kicked.”
On how he would have reacted as a coach:
“If I’m the defensive line coach, and I walk into that meeting room, I’m losing my job. From what I saw, the things that they were doing were things that can be fixed.”
been wondering why/how Jerry Montgomery, DL coach and run game cord is still here after what 8 seasons, for all his tenure we've been one of the worst in the league stopping the run every season
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 05 Oct 2023 08:08
by Labrev
I agree. Jerry Montgomery is a trash position coach. He got here after Kenny Clark, so can't really take much credit for him, and he has not developed any of our DL guys into anything worthwhile. It is one of the most underachieving position groups on our roster. He has to go.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 05 Oct 2023 08:39
by Pckfn23
Yards per Carry Allowed, Total Rushing Yards Allowed:
2022 - 28th, 26th
2021 - 30th, 11th
2020 - 18th, 13th
2019 - 26th, 23rd
2018 - 12th, 22nd
2017 - 9th, 17th
2016 - 12th, 8th
2015 - 29th, 21st
2014 - 23rd, 23rd
2013 - 27th, 25th
2012 - 26th, 17th
2011 - 26th, 14th
2010 - 31st, 18th
2009 - 2nd, 1st
2008 - 26th, 26th
2007 - 11th, 14th
2006 - 17th, 13th
2005 - 17th, 23rd
2004 - 30th, 14th
2003 - 16th, 10th
2002 - 21st, 21st
2001 - 25th, 16th
2000 - 10th, 8th
1999 - 11th, 22nd
1998 - 9th, 4th
1997 - 23rd, 20th
1996 - 5th, 4th
1995 - 22nd, 7th
1994 - 7th, 3rd
1993 - 11th, 8th
Holy crap is that a lot of years of mediocre to bad run defense. It spans all...
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 05 Oct 2023 08:44
by packman114
Joe Barry has been an assistant coach on some dominant defenses but all of his DC jobs have been underachieving. Just like play-calling on offense, I'm thinking he is too predictable as a play-caller and OCs are constantly out-coaching him. There are times when our defense plays aggressive so it's not a scheme issue as much as a play-calling issue. Joe Barry's history shows he knows how to coach defense, he just is a terrible play-caller in the heat of the battle.
I never understood why play-calling on the defensive side never gets criticized like it does on offense. Instead we blame it on the "scheme". Didn't Johnny Gray call the defense once last year or 2 years ago and the defense played much more aggressively? That proves the scheme can work if the play-calling is better.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 05 Oct 2023 08:50
by Pckfn23
packman114 wrote: ↑05 Oct 2023 08:44
I never understood why play-calling on the defensive side never gets criticized like it does on offense. Instead we blame it on the "scheme". Didn't Johnny Gray call the defense once last year or 2 years ago and the defense played much more aggressively? That proves the scheme can work if the play-calling is better.
There isn't always "play-calling" on defense like there is on offense. It is the scheme or over arching game plan for that game that determines play on each down. Things like types of coverages and stunts/blitzes can be called, but the defense needs to be reactive to what the offense is showing so sometimes that "play call" will need to change.
We have had a philosophy of scheming defenses that want to allow offenses to make a mistake instead of scheming defenses that force offenses into mistakes.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 05 Oct 2023 08:54
by Yoop
as I've said, why spend all of our highest draft picks on defense, the ability to succeed at that is so slim, and having a great defense has such a short shelf life, unless you have the ability to hit on most picks, and fortify with lower cost old vets through UFA ala Belichick then to me your just wasting resources, better to stick with having a great QB, and a great stable of skill position talent and just out score everyone ya play.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 05 Oct 2023 09:20
by BF004
Yoop wrote: ↑05 Oct 2023 05:47
Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑04 Oct 2023 22:24
Even Gilbert Brown is ripping Barry:
https://wisportsheroics.com/green-bay-p ... oit-lions/
Every Monday morning, Brown appears on The Earl Ingram Show for his segment “Under the Helmet with the Gravedigger.” Host Earl Ingram asked Brown about what he thinks went wrong for the Packers against the Lions. Brown replied:
“The Detroit Lions have heat for us. They playing their best game against us because they have never been in this position before. So it’s a different game. We got beat up front so bad that I am embarrassed. Don’t put nothing on Jordan Love. Don’t put nothing on the running backs. Don’t put nothing on the defensive backs. Don’t put nothing on the linebackers. We got beat between the tackles like mama came down the stairs and caught you doing something you had no business doing. We got embarrassed at home, up front, period.”
Ingram then asked Brown about what he would say to the defense if he had been one of the coaches. Brown responded:
“Here’s the thing, Earl. You sitting up there watching the game, you see the scheme. You see what the Lions are trying to do, and defensively, defensive line, me and Santana [Dotson] are sitting there watching the game. And sometimes, things happen where it’s like, either you got to be coached up, or your ability has to be better. It was lose and contain, they were getting two-hatted or scooped blocked, and you got to ask yourself, ‘If you’re getting coached up, how does that happen?’ Are these guys that much better than our defensive line that their scheme of blocking beating our defensive line like that?”
He later said:
“They are getting embarrassed, and I hate to say that because I love me some Kenny Clark, I love me some TJ, I love all them boys, but they got their butts kicked.”
On how he would have reacted as a coach:
“If I’m the defensive line coach, and I walk into that meeting room, I’m losing my job. From what I saw, the things that they were doing were things that can be fixed.”
been wondering why/how Jerry Montgomery, DL coach and run game cord is still here after what 8 seasons, for all his tenure we've been one of the worst in the league stopping the run every season
Yeah, I believe he is our longest tenured coach.
Kenny was already and established as a dude before he got here. Who in his tenure would you say he has coached up really well to their potential and beyond?
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 05 Oct 2023 10:06
by Yoop
BF004 wrote: ↑05 Oct 2023 09:20
Yoop wrote: ↑05 Oct 2023 05:47
been wondering why/how Jerry Montgomery, DL coach and run game cord is still here after what 8 seasons, for all his tenure we've been one of the worst in the league stopping the run every season
Yeah, I believe he is our longest tenured coach.
Kenny was already and established as a dude before he got here. Who in his tenure would you say he has coached up really well to their potential and beyond?
tough question simply because of what we expect from our DT's, using so much duo ( one 2 gap, one single gap) and 20 front only the very best do well against the run.
when we use base 30 front we lack quality rotation, so naturally they wear down, this last draft we brought in 2 more that really fit pass rush versus run stoppers.
we have to go back to early Capers with Raji, Jolly, Brown, Pickett to find the brutish players needed to affectively 2 gap.
the last 5 or so years our DT's are built to defend the pass, not so much the run.
Mike Daniels and Clark come to mind.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 06 Oct 2023 05:18
by TheSkeptic
Yoop wrote: ↑05 Oct 2023 10:06
BF004 wrote: ↑05 Oct 2023 09:20
Yoop wrote: ↑05 Oct 2023 05:47
been wondering why/how Jerry Montgomery, DL coach and run game cord is still here after what 8 seasons, for all his tenure we've been one of the worst in the league stopping the run every season
Yeah, I believe he is our longest tenured coach.
Kenny was already and established as a dude before he got here. Who in his tenure would you say he has coached up really well to their potential and beyond?
tough question simply because of what we expect from our DT's, using so much duo ( one 2 gap, one single gap) and 20 front only the very best do well against the run.
when we use base 30 front we lack quality rotation, so naturally they wear down, this last draft we brought in 2 more that really fit pass rush versus run stoppers.
we have to go back to early Capers with Raji, Jolly, Brown, Pickett to find the brutish players needed to affectively 2 gap.
the last 5 or so years our DT's are built to defend the pass, not so much the run.
Mike Daniels and Clark come to mind.
It is true, you are NEVER going to be good at stopping the run with 2 down lineman and 2 OLB's split wide and 1 ILB. The gaps in the line are simply too wide. Now of course Gary and Van Ness and Smith are all big enough to play DE in a 4-3 but if they move in tight then they can't set the edge and you need 2 LB's to split wide and 1 LB in the middle, a conventional 4-3.
Similarly you are not going to be able to cover well with 3 down linemen, 2 OLB's, 2 ILB's and 4 DB's. Especially in zone.
The only way to stop both the run and pass is with hybrid players so that they can be a 4-3-4 on first down and a 2-4-5 on 2nd and 10 without running players on and off the field and telling the O what your D is going to do. Now fortunately, the Packers DO have such hybrid players in Gary, Van Ness and Walker. It would be nice if the DC would use what he has better. GB has the horses for a good D. But if you use a thoroughbred to pull a plow the horse will go lame and your field will never get plowed. Clark and Wyatt are not the two 330 pounders that are necessary to run a 2-4 and trying to make that configuration stop the run. The linebackers will make the tackle, but there will be a 5 yard gain before contact