Packers Huddle

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2023 05:18

Yoop wrote: ↑

05 Oct 2023 10:06

BF004 wrote: ↑

05 Oct 2023 09:20

Yeah, I believe he is our longest tenured coach.

Kenny was already and established as a dude before he got here. Who in his tenure would you say he has coached up really well to their potential and beyond?

tough question simply because of what we expect from our DT's, using so much duo ( one 2 gap, one single gap) and 20 front only the very best do well against the run.

when we use base 30 front we lack quality rotation, so naturally they wear down, this last draft we brought in 2 more that really fit pass rush versus run stoppers.

we have to go back to early Capers with Raji, Jolly, Brown, Pickett to find the brutish players needed to affectively 2 gap.

the last 5 or so years our DT's are built to defend the pass, not so much the run.

Mike Daniels and Clark come to mind.

It is true, you are NEVER going to be good at stopping the run with 2 down lineman and 2 OLB's split wide and 1 ILB. The gaps in the line are simply too wide. Now of course Gary and Van Ness and Smith are all big enough to play DE in a 4-3 but if they move in tight then they can't set the edge and you need 2 LB's to split wide and 1 LB in the middle, a conventional 4-3.

Similarly you are not going to be able to cover well with 3 down linemen, 2 OLB's, 2 ILB's and 4 DB's. Especially in zone.

The only way to stop both the run and pass is with hybrid players so that they can be a 4-3-4 on first down and a 2-4-5 on 2nd and 10 without running players on and off the field and telling the O what your D is going to do. Now fortunately, the Packers DO have such hybrid players in Gary, Van Ness and Walker. It would be nice if the DC would use what he has better. GB has the horses for a good D. But if you use a thoroughbred to pull a plow the horse will go lame and your field will never get plowed. Clark and Wyatt are not the two 330 pounders that are necessary to run a 2-4 and trying to make that configuration stop the run. The linebackers will make the tackle, but there will be a 5 yard gain before contact

You nailed it at the end. Clark and Wyatt are getting rolled and smoked in the run game.

If you remember the 2010s 49ers they got away with shutting down the run and pass with Justin Smith, Ray McDonald, P Willy, and Navarro Bowman. Smith was a force as a true 5 tech. Willis and Bowman would take on offensive lineman and win in the run game.

We don’t have guys like that. Our LBs are athletic freaks and credit to them for being really good in coverage but they don’t make plays against the run. If they’re making tackles 5 yards down the field does it matter? Wyatt for being a 25 year old player should be so much better but he’s getting dominated. Again, he looks ok getting after the passer but we are rarely in situations to defend the pass in long situations. Clark these last two seasons really hasn’t held up well in the run besides making a few splash plays.

Campbell is the MLB, he's only played 45% of the snaps, when he's out Walker becomes the MLB and lacks the stoutness of Campbell, and McDuffie while having a great play here and there is a huge talent and athletic decline from those two starters.

same at other positions, backups are rarely a improvement when the starter is out. and we've played backups a lot so far this season, which takes away from the continuity players gain the longer they play together.

the mindset that the run won't or can't beat us develops when you have a high scoring offense where opponents are usually in catch up offense and passing, that changes how you build your D front, DT's that both get great pass rush, plus very stout against the run are few and far between, and tend to make big money for those skills, Clark is the closest we've had to being that player, most are drafted top half of round one, and we rarely pick that high, our win/lose record says if we have to chose, we opt for the pass rushing skills, you can count on one hand the teams that beat us running the pig, more just lately then for many of the past seasons, times do change though, and we need to do better, we should be playing more 30 front, we have the talent to do that.

Campbell has been an average linebacker since his fantastic first year with the Packers. Hes lost a step and getting older.

I don't believe Quay Walker can't blow up blocks. He is like 6'4/240+. He has the size, and he does not seem like a soft player to me. He seems quite willing to be the aggressor.

It looks to me like he (and just about everyone else on this D) has been coached not to attack.

Labrev wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2023 09:33

I don't believe Quay Walker can't blow up blocks. He is like 6'4/240+. He has the size, and he does not seem like a soft player to me. He seems quite willing to be the aggressor.

It looks to me like he (and just about everyone else on this D) has been coached not to attack.

they are all told to protect the back end because Ford is a liability

Drj820 wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2023 09:25

Campbell has been an average linebacker since his fantastic first year with the Packers. Hes lost a step and getting older.

ahhhh, maybe, he had 96 tackles last year in only 13 games, he had 146 the first year with us in 16 games, this year he has 22 tackles in 3 games when playing below 50% of the snaps, average? I very much doubt that, 7+ tackles a game with his coverage skills isn't average to me.

People say "the best offense is a great defense" but I don't know if people know what that means. I feel like a lot of people just think it means that great defense makes your offense look good.

To me, the great paradox of football is that.... defense is actually offense, and offense is actually defense... *IF* you play them correctly. If you play defense like Joe Barry, then yeah, it's just defense, as in, you are just sitting back and trying to prevent the other side from making gains.

But if you play defense like the aggressor rather than the preventer, then it is actually offensive in nature, because going on the attack = offense. And then offense is actually more like defense because you are trying to protect the ball from falling into the other side's hands, control the clock, and in a sense, moving the ball forward is just a glorified game of keep-away.

That is what I detest about the defensive philosophy of Joe Barry and even MLF's philosophy on O to some degree. Barry just plays defense like defense and MLF after the last few years of AR has seemed to internalize the lust for chasing the big play, which itself was internalized into AR from McMurthy, and I am not really a fan of either philosophy.

I detest a defense that is coached to sit back and "read and react" to the offense. NO!! Who cares what the O wants or is trying to do? Go after them, put them on their butts, foil their whole plans before they can even get any of it off the ground!

Labrev wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2023 09:39

People say "the best offense is a great defense" but I don't know if people know what that means. I feel like a lot of people just think it means that great defense makes your offense look good.

To me, the great paradox of football is that.... defense is actually offense, and offense is actually defense... *IF* you play them correctly. If you play defense like Joe Barry, then yeah, it's just defense, as in, you are just sitting back and trying to prevent the other side from making gains.

But if you play defense like the aggressor rather than the preventer, then it is actually offensive in nature, because going on the attack = offense. And then offense is actually more like defense because you are trying to protect the ball from falling into the other side's hands, control the clock, and in a sense, moving the ball forward is just a glorified game of keep-away.

That is what I detest about the defensive philosophy of Joe Barry and even MLF's philosophy on O to some degree. Barry just plays defense like defense and MLF after the last few years of AR has seemed to internalize the lust for chasing the big play, which itself was internalized into AR from McMurthy, and I am not really a fan of either philosophy.

to do that you need starter ability at every position with a few all pro's thrown in, a task very hard to accomplish and near impossible to retain over a 2 or 3 year span, and it will come at the expense of the offense.

and if you become a attacking style defense minus that talent opposing offenses will pick on your weak positions on every series, and as the DC attempts to adjust they will go to another weak position, rinse and repeat as necessary, to me that is the main reason ya don't see more of that attacking style we all like.

and almost every offense has the big play playbook, and will use it when defenses attempt that aggressive style of play we like

never quite understood all the desire to build a top 5 defense, I think it corrolates to the inability for teams to have or find franchise all pro QB's or build a power house offenses, like the older Baltimore Ravens, or Chicago Bears years ago

Big play offenses tend to win most games, even against the best defenses.

Labrev wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2023 09:39

That is what I detest about the defensive philosophy of Joe Barry... Barry just plays defense like defense

You're hitting on what I think is the biggest issue.

Joe Barry prefers a passive-reactive style of defense, always responding to what the offense is showing. What he hasn't figured out is that often what the offense is showing, be it personnel or formations, is intentionally deceptive. Doesn't matter to Barry, though, he's got his spreadsheet and he simply calls in the ever-predictable counter.

And he's incredibly consistent with it. The opposing offense knows exactly how Barry will respond to certain formations/personnel groupings and they use it against him.

What clearly hasn't occurred to Barry, as you said above, is to go on the offensive while playing defense. Play aggressive-penetrating schemes, not this two-gap hope-to-hold-the-line style. Attack the SOBs. Or, at the very least, be unpredictable.

And for Christ's sake, when it's 1st-and-goal at the $%@# 2 yd line, stay out of $%@# nickel no matter what grouping they send out! There isn't that much space to cover! Those speedy LBs you love so much can hold their own in tight spaces! It's not rocket surgery, FFS!

My expectations have shifted. I expect our defense to improve dramatically, likely culminating in a 4-0 run starting right here. Then, predictably, as the opponents get tougher, I expect the !@#$ to soak through Barry's Depends and start calling defense like he always has and us having the same exact GD conversation again in another few months. I cannot envision a scenario where he is back in 2024.

NCF wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2023 12:02

I cannot envision a scenario where he is back in 2024.

I’m torn on what to root for.

If we are like 9-8 or 10-7 and sneak into the playoffs, honestly can’t imagine a scenario he is let go. Unless he has like a pettine stupid Hail Mary call.

BF004 wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2023 13:23

NCF wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2023 12:02

I cannot envision a scenario where he is back in 2024.

I’m torn on what to root for.

If we are like 9-8 or 10-7 and sneak into the playoffs, honestly can’t imagine a scenario he is let go. Unless he has like a pettine stupid Hail Mary call.

Speaking of Pettine, I think he was a better cord then Barry, wasn't his fault King wouldn't honor that go route, and imo his schemes where more aggressive then Barry's have been 90% of the time, used more man under, jmo

Yoop wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2023 14:26

BF004 wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2023 13:23

NCF wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2023 12:02

I cannot envision a scenario where he is back in 2024.

I’m torn on what to root for.

If we are like 9-8 or 10-7 and sneak into the playoffs, honestly can’t imagine a scenario he is let go. Unless he has like a pettine stupid Hail Mary call.

Speaking of Pettine, I think he was a better cord then Barry, wasn't his fault King wouldn't honor that go route, and imo his schemes where more aggressive then Barry's have been 90% of the time, used more man under, jmo

The OC could call his game just by knowing what yard line they were on. Pettine called his D based on the section of the field. Way too predictable.

No, Pettine was worse and it's not even close. Pettine's defense was so bad that we lost to a 9ers team whose pass attempts (not completions, attempts) was in the single digits, in a playoff game. We were so weak on D that SanFran did not even need to pass the ball more than eight times to score 37 points.

Barry is bad and needs to go, but for as poorly as he called the Falcons game, he still let us 100 fewer yards to Bijan Robinson (who is elite) than Pettine did not Mostert (not elite), and still needed Desmond Ridder to pass 32 times to beat us by one point while the 9ers beat us by 17 (more if you take out our garbage-time scores).

If Barry needs to be canned, Pettine needed to be shot out of a cannon.

Labrev wrote: ↑

09 Oct 2023 09:40

No, Pettine was worse and it's not even close. Pettine's defense was so bad that we lost to a 9ers team whose pass attempts (not completions, attempts) was in the single digits, in a playoff game. We were so weak on D that SanFran did not even need to pass the ball more than eight times to score 37 points.

Barry is bad and needs to go, but for as poorly as he called the Falcons game, he still let us 100 fewer yards to Bijan Robinson (who is elite) than Pettine did not Mostert (not elite), and still needed Desmond Ridder to pass 32 times to beat us by one point while the 9ers beat us by 17 (more if you take out our garbage-time scores).

If Barry needs to be canned, Pettine needed to be shot out of a cannon.

Pettine lacked the coverage ability of Campbell and Walker, and even average rotational talent on the DL, and and 3 of the CB's on the roster then are no longer on the team, Pettine had a valid excuse to play nickel as much as he did, Barry has always had better talent then Pettine, always, yet still does nickel 70% of the time

you do realize that match ups in one game are not always the same for another, just as available players change from game to game, you could interchange those RB's or any RB's and those out comes could be different every time, that comparison palls when ya consider the positional improvements over the last couple seasons.

Definitely more to it, but the point is there.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

09 Oct 2023 11:41

Definitely more to it, but the point is there.

The Packers gave up 363 yards rushing to a very good Eagles offense not even 11 months ago.

Shortly before that game, the Pack concentrated on stopping Titan RB Derrick Henry and thus somehow allowed a gimpy and not very good Ryan Tannehill to go 22-27 for 333 yards and 2 TDs.

Packer defenses under Joe Barry have shown they can be lousy against the pass as well as the run.

Anyone watching the 49ers backup defenders aggressively attacking while up 32 points late in last night's beatdown of the Cowboys immediately recognized the glaring difference between the way GB and SF play defense.

Oh, and SF has played aggressive, hard-hitting defense under Vic Fangio, Robert Saleh, Demeco Ryans, and now Steve Wilks.

The decade+ defensive issues in GB certainly include but are in no way limited to current Defensive Coordinator Joe Barry.

Yoop wrote: ↑

09 Oct 2023 11:13

Pettine lacked the coverage ability of Campbell and Walker, and even average rotational talent on the DL, and and 3 of the CB's on the roster then are no longer on the team, Pettine had a valid excuse to play nickel as much as he did,

No he didn't. Stopping the run is fundamental. If you can't stop the run, you don't have a defense, and even the worst QBs can beat you because all they need to do to convert is dink and dunk.

It made *no sense* to sell everything out to stop the pass when SF was running **so effectively** that they largely did not even bother passing the ball.

Neither Barry nor Pettine understand this, but Pettine's schemes are an order of magnitude worse at being exploited than Barry's.

Labrev wrote: ↑

09 Oct 2023 14:50

Yoop wrote: ↑

09 Oct 2023 11:13

Pettine lacked the coverage ability of Campbell and Walker, and even average rotational talent on the DL, and and 3 of the CB's on the roster then are no longer on the team, Pettine had a valid excuse to play nickel as much as he did,

No he didn't. Stopping the run is fundamental. If you can't stop the run, you don't have a defense, and even the worst QBs can beat you because all they need to do to convert is dink and dunk.

It made *no sense* to sell everything out to stop the pass when SF was running **so effectively** that they largely did not even bother passing the ball.

Neither Barry nor Pettine understand this, but Pettine's schemes are an order of magnitude worse at being exploited than Barry's.

stopping run yrds is obviously less important then stopping the pass, other wise no one would play prevent, no one would draft pass rushers.

you know what you can do with your magnitudes both have failed, one continues to fail.

Yoop wrote: ↑

09 Oct 2023 15:09

Labrev wrote: ↑

09 Oct 2023 14:50

Yoop wrote: ↑

09 Oct 2023 11:13

Pettine lacked the coverage ability of Campbell and Walker, and even average rotational talent on the DL, and and 3 of the CB's on the roster then are no longer on the team, Pettine had a valid excuse to play nickel as much as he did,

No he didn't. Stopping the run is fundamental. If you can't stop the run, you don't have a defense, and even the worst QBs can beat you because all they need to do to convert is dink and dunk.

It made *no sense* to sell everything out to stop the pass when SF was running **so effectively** that they largely did not even bother passing the ball.

Neither Barry nor Pettine understand this, but Pettine's schemes are an order of magnitude worse at being exploited than Barry's.

stopping run yrds is obviously less important then stopping the pass, other wise no one would play prevent, no one would draft pass rushers.

Look at what happened to Zadarius Smith in that game. He is a great pass-rusher, but his great pass-rush was rendered useless because he could not stop the run. SF ran at him all game to make sure he never got many opportunities to rush the QB.

Stopping the run is fundamental. That obviously does not mean ONLY try to stop the run, or that teams should only invest in run-stopping DL and LBs. It means that before you try to stop the pass, you need to put the pass in situations that make it hard for them to get completions and conversions and force them to make risky throws.