Packers Huddle

BF004 wrote: ↑

23 Jul 2020 12:14

As much as we weren’t high on Graham or Martinez, I think it’s a stretch to think we broke even at those positions.

Judging by contracts handed out, I’d say other NFL GMs don’t think we stayed even keel there and likely will get worse.

Could Sternberger be amazing and Kirksey stay perfectly healthy and be a game changer? Of course, but I’d say on paper we got worse at both positions as it stands today.

Nah, sorry, but Kirksey is a better player than Martinez when healthy. I don't care how much money they paid anyone. Based on money paid, Trey Flowers was a better free agent signing than ZaDarius Smith. Kirksey was cheap because he was hurt. The talent is better. Martinez has not been good; I don't know why anyone ever acted like we should keep him. He's a guy; a smart guy, but that's it. He's never been more than that. He's never made any splash plays. Kirksey has. And he has scheme experience and familiarity so he isn't a total guess. Especially after Martinez mouthed off about how unfair it was that he was expected to "freelance" and actually read the play in front of him and react instead of just stick to an assignment and fill his role, you gotta know getting Blake out of there is necessary. He fits as a #2 ILB who can call a play pre-snap and fill his gap and not be expected to make any plays on his own. That's a rookie contract/$4 million a year role, no matter how much Dave Gettelman thinks he's worth.

And Graham was replacement level. Sternberger doesn't need to be amazing. Graham had 38 catches for 447 yard sand 3 TDs. That's honestly rookie TE production. Jimmy Graham finished between Jack Doyle and Jonnu Smith in yards and catches. He had basically the same season as Jordan Akins. Irv Smith as a rookie #2 TE behind Kyle Rudolph almost equalled his receptions. Evan Engram had the same season stats as Graham and only played 8 games.

Saying we replaced with at least even talent and higher upside is a perfectly fair, completely valid response to both positions. Neither position is counting on a rookie. Both positions were liabilities to the team last year, and so both have been replaced.

I just try to check my own hubris on things I know I don’t know a fraction as well as people paid millions to do it.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

23 Jul 2020 13:06

BF004 wrote: ↑

23 Jul 2020 12:14

As much as we weren’t high on Graham or Martinez, I think it’s a stretch to think we broke even at those positions.

Judging by contracts handed out, I’d say other NFL GMs don’t think we stayed even keel there and likely will get worse.

Could Sternberger be amazing and Kirksey stay perfectly healthy and be a game changer? Of course, but I’d say on paper we got worse at both positions as it stands today.

Nah, sorry, but Kirksey is a better player than Martinez when healthy. I don't care how much money they paid anyone. Based on money paid, Trey Flowers was a better free agent signing than ZaDarius Smith. Kirksey was cheap because he was hurt. The talent is better. Martinez has not been good; I don't know why anyone ever acted like we should keep him. He's a guy; a smart guy, but that's it. He's never been more than that. He's never made any splash plays. Kirksey has. And he has scheme experience and familiarity so he isn't a total guess. Especially after Martinez mouthed off about how unfair it was that he was expected to "freelance" and actually read the play in front of him and react instead of just stick to an assignment and fill his role, you gotta know getting Blake out of there is necessary. He fits as a #2 ILB who can call a play pre-snap and fill his gap and not be expected to make any plays on his own. That's a rookie contract/$4 million a year role, no matter how much Dave Gettelman thinks he's worth.

And Graham was replacement level. Sternberger doesn't need to be amazing. Graham had 38 catches for 447 yard sand 3 TDs. That's honestly rookie TE production. Jimmy Graham finished between Jack Doyle and Jonnu Smith in yards and catches. He had basically the same season as Jordan Akins. Irv Smith as a rookie #2 TE behind Kyle Rudolph almost equalled his receptions. Evan Engram had the same season stats as Graham and only played 8 games.

Saying we replaced with at least even talent and higher upside is a perfectly fair, completely valid response to both positions. Neither position is counting on a rookie. Both positions were liabilities to the team last year, and so both have been replaced.

I agree completely. Normally, I would say FA contracts are a pretty good indicator, but for the exact reasons you laid out, they are extremely flawed here.

BF004 wrote: ↑

23 Jul 2020 13:11

I just try to check my own hubris on things I know I don’t know a fraction as well as people paid millions to do it.

Completely fair in general. Totally fine to think yourself better than the Bears and Gettelman.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

23 Jul 2020 14:15

BF004 wrote: ↑

23 Jul 2020 13:11

I just try to check my own hubris on things I know I don’t know a fraction as well as people paid millions to do it.

Completely fair in general. Totally fine to think yourself better than the Bears and Gettelman.

Touché.


We are only Nick Foles and Jimmy Graham away from a Super Bowl.

Also, to be fair, we definitely got worse at RT and I forgot to put that on my list.

I apologize for bringing another article pointing out the Love pick over WR, however I agree with a lot of it, but the part that got my attention was that he see's us declining and possibly missing the playoff's, the first thing I thought of was, has he evaluated the other 3 teams in this division, I don't see any of the 3 over taking us, so we may go 11-5, doesn't mean we'll miss the playoffs.

KIrksey needs to play all year, or Marty will be missed, I agree, next to a more rangy free lancer and Marty will probably do well as a 2 dn run stuffer, when your a top 5 tackler year after year some GM's will be impressed, and maybe in a scheme of less nickle and dime he'll still have great production, we'll see, always liked Marty

Yoop wrote: ↑

23 Jul 2020 16:38

the part that got my attention was that he see's us declining and possibly missing the playoff's, the first thing I thought of was, has he evaluated the other 3 teams in this division, I don't see any of the 3 over taking us, so we may go 11-5, doesn't mean we'll miss the playoffs.

I agree; the Vikings are in a serious period of transition; if it all clicks they could be dangerous by the end of the year, but their draft class seems much more likely to haunt us in 2021 than 2020. The Bears have some bounce-back potential, but would need a big leap.

I think that win/loss record regression is a very fair and reasonable expectation. Not only is 13-3 hard to replicate, but we genuinely were a team that had a lot of things that have shown over the years to be more random than skillful go our way. I mentioned close games (we were 7-1, I think) and point differential, but also our good health and high turnover margin.

But recognizing that we didn't fix everything that needed fixing and that 13-3 is a high bar isn't the same as "the team got worse" or "the team didn't get better." There's a desire to paint everything in a negative light because of a couple high-profile decisions the team made, namely trading up for Love and the fact that our top perceived need, WR, was not addressed.

I agree with the critics that I would feel much better if we bolstered the DL and still would like to see Marcell Dareus or Damon Harrison brought in for a prove-it deal as the season approaches. I agree with the critics that we did not improve at WR as much or in the ways that many people would have liked to see; I personally wanted more speed and suddenness at the position.

But the way that a few negative storylines have infected every storyline is just aggravating the heck out of me. Drafting AJ Dillon and Josiah Deguara help the offense, bar none. Helping the offense helps Rodgers. Re-signing Ervin provides the sort of versatile explosive part-time player many hoped to see in the draft. Getting EQSB back--a 6'5" 220 pound WR who runs a 4.46, had zero drops as a rookie, and showed an acumen for blocking--matters.

It is possible to be disappointed in aspects of the offseason and not pain tthe whole thing as a failure or write off the 2020 season and act as if the team is simply in future planning mode.

I watched the back ends of John Elway and Dan Marino's careers while commentators bemoaned that they needed a defense and a running game--which the Broncos finally provided and reaped the payoff. I watched Peyton Manning's whole career where they said he needed a defense to win the big one. I've watched Tom Brady's miraculous career evolve from a guy who needed a defense and a system tailored to him to win, into an all-time great, and back again to a guy who needs a strong supporting cast to get the job done.

Last season, bolstering the defense and this season bolstering the running game are in no way shots at Rodgers or a sign that we're moving on. They're helping Rodgers by improving the team during the end of his window. It's an absolute lark to see all these commentators suddenly come to agreement that the only way to help a HoF QB is by getting him a #2 WR.

Drafting a QB in the first round is a clear sign we are moving on from Rodgers.

I would also agree drafting Dillon and Deguara Help the offense. But are they going to help the offense the best that it could have. I don’t think so. At least not now.

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

23 Jul 2020 18:23

Drafting a QB in the first round is a clear sign we are moving on from Rodgers.

I would also agree drafting Dillon and Deguara Help the offense. But are they going to help the offense the best that it could have. I don’t think so. At least not now.

Drafting Love is a clear sign we are going to move on from Rodgers in 3-4 years.

Re-doing Rodgers contract last season was a clear sign we're firmly committed to him for 2-3 years.

Dillon and Deguara can be part of both offensive futures. We are both investing in the Rodgers window and in the Love future. It's responsible team building. A WR would have been great, but adding two 3rd round TEs in two years, investing in the OL, and adding a multi-pronged rushing attack--those things will make Rodgers better, too.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

23 Jul 2020 18:47

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

23 Jul 2020 18:23

Drafting a QB in the first round is a clear sign we are moving on from Rodgers.

I would also agree drafting Dillon and Deguara Help the offense. But are they going to help the offense the best that it could have. I don’t think so. At least not now.

Drafting Love is a clear sign we are going to move on from Rodgers in 3-4 years.

Re-doing Rodgers contract last season was a clear sign we're firmly committed to him for 2-3 years.

Dillon and Deguara can be part of both offensive futures. We are both investing in the Rodgers window and in the Love future. It's responsible team building. A WR would have been great, but adding two 3rd round TEs in two years, investing in the OL, and adding a multi-pronged rushing attack--those things will make Rodgers better, too.

I still see the drafting of Love as a good enough move. The Packers were good enough past year. It was a good year. Love will hopefully keep us good enough post Rodgers. But we didn’t put ourselves over the top this season and we ha e now probably missed our Rookie QB window but not being able to start Love until year 3 or 4 when he will still be inexperienced.

I really don’t know who is worse between TT and Gutey. Both need to bow 5 times a day to the God for their careers.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

23 Jul 2020 14:50

Also, to be fair, we definitely got worse at RT and I forgot to put that on my list.

Yes, but I would argue the degree to which we got worse is not as bad as some have suggested. If Wagner fails or struggles, though, then the situation becomes much more dire. I think signing Veldheer back would be the only option. There isn't a capable player on the roster to play RT in 2020.

Hmmm...

NCF wrote: ↑

27 Jul 2020 14:20

Hmmm...

Wouldnt make any sense. Get a better interior DL. There are players available inside and we dont need another edge guy.

I would like to bring Daniels back or Snacks or Liuget. Daniels to me though from a talent perspective makes the most sense but I doubt the Packers bring him back. They got rid of him for a reason whether that was personality or scheme fit.

NCF wrote: ↑

27 Jul 2020 14:20

Hmmm...

Screw it, go get Clowney.

I would be so frustrated with a Griffen signing. I really want him not to be a Viking, but not badly enough to play keepaway with our cap dollars.4

Like [mention]lupedafiasco[/mention] said, get an IDL instead. Still holding out hope for Dareus or Harrison

Sounds like the typical game we get thrown into, name dropping the Packers to up a player's price without real interest from the Packers.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

27 Jul 2020 16:00

I would be so frustrated with a Griffen signing. I really want him not to be a Viking, but not badly enough to play keepaway with our cap dollars.4

Like @lupedafiasco said, get an IDL instead. Still holding out hope for Dareus or Harrison

Amen, we've spent plenty on the edge, heck Gary was a luxury pick after the Smith signings, to me some of our problems against the run are due to being small, all the tech in the world doesn't mean much if your tossed around with the first step , I agree pick up a big interior lineman.

at this point I think we need to sign one of our own guys, Rapoport sending click bait.

Packers.com put up a great Alumni interview with TJ Lang and Josh Sitton that they did together last December.

Josh ranked his best Packers teams he was part of.

He said best Packers teams ranked in order:

Best: 2014 Packers
2nd best: 2011 Packers
3rd best: 2010 Packers

go pak go wrote: ↑

28 Jul 2020 06:12

Packers.com put up a great Alumni interview with TJ Lang and Josh Sitton that they did together last December.

Josh ranked his best Packers teams he was part of.

He said best Packers teams ranked in order:

Best: 2014 Packers
2nd best: 2011 Packers
3rd best: 2010 Packers

I have seen similar things before, too, which surprises me, because I think the 2012 and 2013 teams are underrated. Especially 2013, but the injuries to Rodgers and Finley changed everything that year.