Packers Huddle

Amos wanted out of NJ? Can't say I blame him.

For me if you draft the BPA no matter the position you really can't go wrong. Reaching for "need" can often come back to bite ya. Passing on Watt and taking King is exhibit A.

thing is we just traded a seasoned vet with less mileage, the goal seems to be that we'll replace a guy like Douglas with a younger, and far cheaper player, so we can afford to pay for Bakhtiari new golf cart ya have to learn to line up priority's in this business

I see no reason on bringing Amos back.

Yoop wrote: ↑

02 Dec 2023 09:49

we needed a safety as well as a OL in that 019 draft, we had edge rushers up the ying yang, we sure didn't need Gary,

How is drafting Gary any different your 2000s ideal of drafting WRs like Nelson and Cobb when we had Jennings, Driver and Jones? Because defense doesn't get your rocks off like offense (and only passing, because you don't like running the ball)?

and we also needed to improve the WR position, the lame ass argument that this offense had high output during that season and the several that followed, mattered little come PO games,

Yoop you have said, and I quote, "I don't need trophys<sic>" just great play on offense. And you angrily admonished me for saying we need to be more like KC and do what wins SBs rather than just what makes fans feel good. You were like "I can never relate to you, all you damn kids care about is winning SuperBowls!"

But now you care about PO games. Yeah right. You're just saying that because it's convenient to your pet topic.

Yoop wrote: ↑

02 Dec 2023 09:57

and where are those great player grades for those receiver you and some other here thought where so good? insert picture of toilet right here

They're helping their team more than Juju Smith, who was your brilliant idea of a legit WR2, who KC and their great GM did not bother bringing back even at a low price.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

02 Dec 2023 10:56

This is where you would fall if you don’t just want to give the QB credit and recognize he gotta lot of scrubs paid.

I think you're mistaking your mentaility (unwillingness to give credit) for mine. QB and WR production is a two-way street. Yes the QB has to get the ball, but the WR has to receive.

I am quite comfortable with the idea that Rodgers upped his game and it elevated the guys around him. It doesn't really take away from the idea that those guys were better than they're given credit for. The WR can't show what he can do if the QB can't get him the ball.

I remember time after time watching rodgers put it right on Lazard when Lazard had practically no seperation. Most of the time Lazard would catch it too. Credit it to him.

I think Rodgers liked Lazard because he was where he was supposed to be whether he was open or not.

He's a possession receiver. That means he is "open" when he's covered, by virtue of being a big-sized target. When you're 6'5/230, you don't need "separation" to be open against a DB. You're open by being bigger.

I have made that point about a hundred times, and in response there is no argument ever made, just people ignoring it, pretending it wasn't said, and just repeating the assertion they can't defend. That's fine though, I accept your surrender/defeat.

And that was a skill-set at WR that nobody else on the team offered, so it was one part of a diversity of skills and talents at WR that made the unit as a whole difficult to defend. If they had undersized receivers, we had a guy like Lazard to take advantage. If they lacked speed, we had MVS. It's situational football and playing match-ups, not Madden arcade gaming.

Labrev wrote: ↑

02 Dec 2023 17:23

How is drafting Gary any different your 2000s ideal of drafting WRs like Nelson and Cobb when we had Jennings, Driver and Jones? Because defense doesn't get your rocks off like offense (and only passing, because you don't like running the ball)?

that you don't already know the answer to this is so mind boggling, ya don't need the depth at edge rusher like ya do with receivers, these last 2 drafts should awaken you to that, counting TE's we drafted 8 receivers.

also Shuster left the Chiefs, not the other way around, they wanted to keep the player that caught 80% of targeted throws for 995 yrds, and he got a 3 yr 33 mil. deal from the Pats 16 mil guaranteed, the only reason he hasn't done well this season is do to injury, now thats not bragging money, but I'd pay that for him over either of Lazard or MVS.

your remark concerning PO games and SB's makes little sense, we all want to win those games,, I simply explained reasons we didn't, which you refute, I think everyone has a right to there opinion, right or wrong.

I get angry when you purposely mis cue comments I make in order to defend your opinions, I attempt to be civil and and you twist or berate me, expecting me not to get upset is foolish, who wouldn't

Lazard is/was a healthy scratch, MVS is a #3-4 receiver for KC, minus Rodgers 3 years with either and it's debatable there still playing in the NFL, where ar Allison, Kumerow, Tonyan, and the other 157 jag receivers that have come and gone over Rodgers tenure as our QB, it's the QB that makes these receivers whatever they became, not the other way around as you seem to think.

and here you are with this innate desire to be a run first team, obviously I should stress again that we just drafted 8 pass catchers, maybe you over looked the first time I said that or where napping during the last 2 drafts, nada for pig carriers, I want to run the ball to, but this is and always will be a pass first league, you should embrace that

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 08:35

Labrev wrote: ↑

02 Dec 2023 17:23

How is drafting Gary any different your 2000s ideal of drafting WRs like Nelson and Cobb when we had Jennings, Driver and Jones? Because defense doesn't get your rocks off like offense (and only passing, because you don't like running the ball)?

that you don't already know the answer to this is so mind boggling, ya don't need the depth at edge rusher like ya do with receivers,

In what world do you not need EDGE depth like with WR? Not the world of football. EDGE is a rotational position, #3 and #4 guys see the field early and often no differently than many WR3 and 4 do.

And of course, it is no less value to have succession lines at EDGE than WR. Lots of people see EDGE as being second only to QB in order of importance because of how valuable pass-rushers are to a team/defense. Zadarius Smith was a great signing... for 1 year. Then he regressed, then he got hurt and missed the whole year.

We were able to move on and still have good play at-position, no differently than you say should have been done at WR.

This is where you lose people yoop. You frequently hold up WR as this all-important position, and refuse to recognize the importance of any other position... until that non-WR position becomes bad, then you are dismayed that the GM let the position get bad. If we didn't have Gary to succeed Z and our pass-rush suffered, you'd harp on how the GM neglected EDGE by not having quality young depth for life after Z.

Yet now you will argue that the GM is also bad for drafting a great player in 2019 and keeping the EDGE position strong just like you want at WR. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's ridiculous.

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 08:35

also Shuster left the Chiefs, not the other way around,

He left the reigning MVP and perennial contender to uproot his life and play for the putrid Patriots?

Yeah no, I don't buy that for a second, even if he says so himself. If he had the same offer from KC, he'd have surely stayed. He probably would have stayed for a discount.

they wanted to keep the player that caught 80% of targeted throws for 995 yrds, and he got a 3 yr 33 mil. deal from the Pats 16 mil guaranteed, the only reason he hasn't done well this season is do to injury, now thats not bragging money, but I'd pay that for him over either of Lazard or MVS.

So the Chiefs, who have a top GM in the league, had your boi Juju and "scrub" MVS, and decided that MVS is worth ~10m a year but Juju is not worth ~5.3 a year. He's still keeping MVS around, not Juju.

And this idea that Rodgers simply did more with less in his MVP years and made poor players at WR look good, meaning you accept the idea that a great QB can make poor WRs look better than they are.... can just as easily explain Juju's season last year, i.e. Pat Mahomes in an MVP year made his slow scrub ass look like a borderline 1k starter.

Juju has been active for 9 out of 11 games so far. He has not managed to establish himself above the Pats' other crappy WRs.

He has just 159 yards on the season, less than 20 per game. That's way worse than Lazard, who is also on a terrible offense.

Face it, Juju is a scrub. You think otherwise because he's a name you heard of that was said to be a good player (without questioning why PIT and now KC let him go for next to nothing while having no quality WRs of their own to take his place) and have "grass is greener" mentality.

Well, 32 NFL GMs (not just our bad FO) have spoken. They seem him for what anyone with eyes can: smaller and slower Allen Lazard. Either of them can be productive when played next to an elite WR like Kelce/Adams and have an elite QB like Mahomes/Rodgers throwing to them.

That you got this idea that Lazard is a scrub and not a WR2 but Juju is a true WR2 shows that this idea of a "real WR2" (as you conceive of it) is not based in anything objectively useful, just your subjective whims.

Labrev wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 09:54

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 08:35

Labrev wrote: ↑

02 Dec 2023 17:23

How is drafting Gary any different your 2000s ideal of drafting WRs like Nelson and Cobb when we had Jennings, Driver and Jones? Because defense doesn't get your rocks off like offense (and only passing, because you don't like running the ball)?

that you don't already know the answer to this is so mind boggling, ya don't need the depth at edge rusher like ya do with receivers,

In what world do you not need EDGE depth like with WR? Not the world of football. EDGE is a rotational position, #3 and #4 guys see the field early and often no differently than many WR3 and 4 do.

And of course, it is no less value to have succession lines at EDGE than WR. Lots of people see EDGE as being second only to QB in order of importance because of how valuable pass-rushers are to a team/defense. Zadarius Smith was a great signing... for 1 year. Then he regressed, then he got hurt and missed the whole year.

We were able to move on and still have good play at-position, no differently than you say should have been done at WR.

This is where you lose people yoop. You frequently hold up WR as this all-important position, and refuse to recognize the importance of any other position... until that non-WR position becomes bad, then you are dismayed that the GM let the position get bad. If we didn't have Gary to succeed Z and our pass-rush suffered, you'd harp on how the GM neglected EDGE by not having quality young depth for life after Z.

Yet now you will argue that the GM is also bad for drafting a great player in 2019 and keeping the EDGE position strong just like you want at WR. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's ridiculous.

ya don't need to fortify the edge in every draft, or the DL either, which is fair to say happened here for 8 years, you take every comment to the extremes of possible thought, never said we don't need pass rushers, and you know I never have, we neglected the WR position for 8 years minus some crappy mid round picks that never really amounted to much ( MVS) your sitting here defending #3 and 4 receivers as though they've ever accomplished what JUJU Shuster did for KC last season, when they have never been as good unless Shuster was injured, which is the only reason he hasn't done more for the Pats this year

and where do you get all I care about is WR? another extreme from you to try and make a point, which is so obsurd, since I asked for other positional fixes as well in every draft class.

there is no hindsight on the day of the draft, we just spent over 100 mil. on edge rushers, so using slot 12 for Gary to back up either was a waste of resources any way you want to look at it, Gary was a pine bobber for almost 2 years

this game is about what are you doing now, not what you hope to do in 3 years, have a great day.

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 10:22

ya don't need to fortify the edge in every draft, or the DL either, which is fair to say happened here for 8 years

Let's use your 8 years and look at the numbers

Last 8 Drafts Facts - Draft position in first 3 rounds

Outside Linebacker / EDGE: 3 (LVN, Gary, Fackrell)

Interior DL: 3 (Wyatt, M. Adams, K Clark)

Wide Receiver: 3 (Reed, Watson, Rodgers)

Tight End: 4 (Musgrave, Kraft, Deguara, Sternberger)

Seems they address your pass catchers as much, if not more, than your edge rushers and big DL by just looking at numbers.

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 10:22

ya don't need to fortify the edge in every draft, or the DL either, which is fair to say happened here for 8 years, you take every comment to the extremes of possible thought, never said we don't need pass rushers, and you know I never have, we neglected the WR position for 8 years minus some crappy mid round picks that never really amounted to much ( MVS) your sitting here defending #3 and 4 receivers as though they've ever accomplished what JUJU Shuster did for KC last season, when they have never been as good unless Shuster was injured, which is the only reason he hasn't done more for the Pats this year

and where do you get all I care about is WR? another extreme from you to try and make a point, which is so obsurd, since I asked for other positional fixes as well in every draft class.

there is no hindsight on the day of the draft, we just spent over 100 mil. on edge rushers, so using slot 12 for Gary to back up either was a waste of resources any way you want to look at it, Gary was a pine bobber for almost 2 years

this game is about what are you doing now, not what you hope to do in 3 years, have a great day.

I think the Packers knew they could not keep both Smith's for very long. Drafting Gary was brilliant and has worked out. You can argue all day long that drafting Gary was a bad decision but I doubt you can find 5 Packers fans in the entire State of Wisconsin that agree with you.

Labrev wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 10:06

He left the reigning MVP and perennial contender to uproot his life and play for the putrid Patriots?

Yeah no, I don't buy that for a second, even if he says so himself. If he had the same offer from KC, he'd have surely stayed. He probably would have stayed for a discount.

KC misses Shuster a lot more then the production gotten from MVS, Shuster probably left because of the MVS signing, hard feelings, and his production decline in NE probably has as much to do with that QB and lousy NE offense as it does with him, theres talk of a Belichick firing.

Shuster may not be a great #2 receiver, but he is one, and thats because he does almost everything better then the stumbling Lazard and no hands MVS.

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 10:33

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 10:22

ya don't need to fortify the edge in every draft, or the DL either, which is fair to say happened here for 8 years, you take every comment to the extremes of possible thought, never said we don't need pass rushers, and you know I never have, we neglected the WR position for 8 years minus some crappy mid round picks that never really amounted to much ( MVS) your sitting here defending #3 and 4 receivers as though they've ever accomplished what JUJU Shuster did for KC last season, when they have never been as good unless Shuster was injured, which is the only reason he hasn't done more for the Pats this year

and where do you get all I care about is WR? another extreme from you to try and make a point, which is so obsurd, since I asked for other positional fixes as well in every draft class.

there is no hindsight on the day of the draft, we just spent over 100 mil. on edge rushers, so using slot 12 for Gary to back up either was a waste of resources any way you want to look at it, Gary was a pine bobber for almost 2 years

this game is about what are you doing now, not what you hope to do in 3 years, have a great day.

I think the Packers knew they could not keep both Smith's for very long. Drafting Gary was brilliant and has worked out. You can argue all day long that drafting Gary was a bad decision but I doubt you can find 5 Packers fans in the entire State of Wisconsin that agree with you.

if all you do is draft groomers with high picks you'll never win in this league, unless you hit on all your other picks, I watched us pick top 10 for years, all it got us was losing seasons, Gary was a luxury pick, that he is doing well 4 years later attest to nothing, we could have used a starter able player elsewhere.

again, what is our goal here, to develop, or to win? ya can't develop players while other positions are a liability and expect to find success, success is far to fleeting to wait.

go pak go wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 10:28

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 10:22

ya don't need to fortify the edge in every draft, or the DL either, which is fair to say happened here for 8 years

Let's use your 8 years and look at the numbers

Last 8 Drafts Facts - Draft position in first 3 rounds

Outside Linebacker / EDGE: 3 (LVN, Gary, Fackrell)

Interior DL: 3 (Wyatt, M. Adams, K Clark)

Wide Receiver: 3 (Reed, Watson, Rodgers)

Tight End: 4 (Musgrave, Kraft, Deguara, Sternberger)

Seems they address your pass catchers as much, if not more, than your edge rushers and big DL by just looking at numbers.

those players weren't even on the team in the 8 yr span I referenced, and it was also a generic statement.

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 10:42

if all you do is draft groomers with high picks you'll never win in this league,

You mean like our WR drafting 2007-2011? No, you approve of that.

yoop,

The big reason (among numerous others) yours and your fellow GM complainers' criticisms of our roster-building fall apart under very mild challenge is because none of you understand the concept of Opportunity Cost.

You guys just think about how "we coulda had" guys like DK Metcalf (or whoever the latest infatuation is) and you just imagine this team being exactly the same as it is *plus* having Metcalf/whoever on the team.

Then you think about how Metcalf/whoever would have saved the season in 2021. Not so fast. You don't get that player in addition to the team as-is. It doesn't work like that. You have to subtract from the roster the move that was made.

So when you think about the SF playoff game loss in 2021, you just think about the offense scoring more points with Metcalf. You fail to recognize that the other positions (especially on D) would not have played the same when you get rid of the player we took over Metcalf (or whoever).

Let's do an Opportunity Cost analysis. First you attempt to get rid of Savage for Metcalf using Hindsight. Nice try, but we happen to know that, at the time (i.e. without hindsight), the Savage pick was not the pick you and others complained about.

Then you admit more honestly that Gary would have been the one sacrificed to take the WR. So now you want us to get rid of the guy who saved our pass-rush in 2021 to believe we still make it to the same playoff position without it, and the defense still plays well enough that another score wins.

More likely, the pass-rush falters and costs us worse than the supposed lack of offense, it continues to be a problem for at least another season if not still today because we try to fix it with a 2022 draft pick at earlies, and then yoop goes on about how the GM was so stupid for neglecting our pass-rush.

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 10:45

go pak go wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 10:28

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 10:22

ya don't need to fortify the edge in every draft, or the DL either, which is fair to say happened here for 8 years

Let's use your 8 years and look at the numbers

Last 8 Drafts Facts - Draft position in first 3 rounds

Outside Linebacker / EDGE: 3 (LVN, Gary, Fackrell)

Interior DL: 3 (Wyatt, M. Adams, K Clark)

Wide Receiver: 3 (Reed, Watson, Rodgers)

Tight End: 4 (Musgrave, Kraft, Deguara, Sternberger)

Seems they address your pass catchers as much, if not more, than your edge rushers and big DL by just looking at numbers.

those players weren't even on the team in the 8 yr span I referenced, and it was also a generic statement.

Okay. 8 Year Span from 2014 - 2021 to meet yoop's complaining timeline

Last 8 Drafts Facts - Draft position in first 3 rounds

Outside Linebacker / EDGE: 2 (Gary, Fackrell)

Interior DL: 3 (M. Adams, K Clark, K Thornton)

Wide Receiver: 3 (Rodgers, Montgomery, D Adams)

Tight End: 3 (Deguara, Sternberger, R Rodgers)

Seems they address your pass catchers as much, if not more, than your edge rushers and big DL by just looking at numbers.

Labrev wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 11:14

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023 10:42

if all you do is draft groomers with high picks you'll never win in this league,

You mean like our WR drafting 2007-2011? No, you approve of that.

you bet I do, using a 2nd round pick on a WR every other year or so is how a offense remains competitive, big chunk offenses dominate this league and have for over 30 years

geesh, you act like thats a false statement seriously now, what has drafting defense with most of our top 2 picks done the last decade? our offenses have had to carry a bottom third in the league defense for most of that span, so of course I want players that score points, it doesn't make any sense not to.