Packers Huddle

Posted: **20 Aug 2024 20:21**

Like I said: it's a minority opinion.

I genuinely, hearing all the drawbacks, think it's better and more fun. I'm never going to stop thinking it's better and more fun. I think the idea that someone terminally online will pick up a random dude during the week when a notification comes through if totally fine and in no way unfair because it IS NOT A GUARANTEED BENEFIT. It's more chaotic and more fast-paced and not in any way less fair. It's less structured. That doesn't equal less even.

Like I said, I know it's not the league opinion. I'm not saying my view should override the league opinion. But it's going to remain my opinion forever because my ideal league would involve tons of chaotic races for waiver pickups based on rumors, assumptions, speculation, and all the uncertainty. I think that's great. I think it's better. I think it's more fun. And I in no way believe it tilts the balance toward anyone.

And I also think that paying more attention to football SHOULD benefit fantasy football outcomes. That's part of it to me. Most fantasy football rules have been tweaked to make casual participants equal to rabid participants. As a rabid participant, I think that's silly and less fun. But I know I'm not everyone and don't intend on being a dictator. I just wanted to voice the opinion that being rabidly into football is a great thing to reward through fantasy rules. And balancing out the rules to benefit people who will check in once or twice a week is specifically less fun and not the kind of thing I want to incentivize. I want a rabid league full of invested owners with no-holds-barred competition for talent. That's what I want. That's not this league. So that's fine. But it's my opinion on the ideal and there's no argument that changes that. The downsides people assert are benefits to me. I think they're great; I genuinely do.

Posted: **20 Aug 2024 21:30**

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑
20 Aug 2024 20:21

And I also think that paying more attention to football SHOULD benefit fantasy football outcomes.

Getting notifications and being terminally online does not mean you are paying more attention to the NFL. Does a person who works a 9-5 who doesn't have phone access during work hours mean they are any less engaged in the NFL and thus not deserving of being able to pick up high priority free agents? Be honest.

And I in no way believe it tilts the balance toward anyone.

You're not being honest here. Leagues did away with FCFS free agency 2 decades ago for the very reason you believe doesn't exist.

And balancing out the rules to benefit people who will check in once or twice a week is specifically less fun

No one is talking about a person checking once or twice a week. We are simply talking about a person not beholden to their phone every minute of the day. And to say pickups like that don't matter... Come on man...

What makes me so mad about this is that your opinion is based off of things that are just verifiably untrue and that you are knowingly misconstruing the opposite argument. You are very much entitled to want a league where those who have 24/7 access to their phone with notifications from multiple fantasy sites give them insights into real time NFL happenings, but at least be honest about why that would be beneficial in an extended FCFS period compared to someone who can only check in several times each day.

Posted: **20 Aug 2024 21:34**

NCF wrote: ↑
20 Aug 2024 14:26

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑
20 Aug 2024 14:02
I will fight hard against the FCFS free agency starting from the end of the draft until week 1.
I don't think anyone wants that.

Ya, about that...

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 13:17**

Since I'm still newish to this whole FCFS (still not quite sure what that means) I was talking to Nic and it seems that if you didn't use right away you'd just hang on to that pick until you needed it. Cool if you needed it but kinda sucks if ya needed someone.

Like when I needed someone but can't because I was stuck with I think the 8th pick in the waiver wire. So it went to someone who didn't need him but can use him if he needed him. He sat on the bench because he already had enough running backs already.

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 14:35**

Trudge wrote: ↑
21 Aug 2024 13:17
Since I'm still newish to this whole FCFS (still not quite sure what that means) I was talking to Nic and it seems that if you didn't use right away you'd just hang on to that pick until you needed it. Cool if you needed it but kinda sucks if ya needed someone.

Like when I needed someone but can't because I was stuck with I think the 8th pick in the waiver wire. So it went to someone who didn't need him but can use him if he needed him. He sat on the bench because he already had enough running backs already.

This is what FAAB waivers corrects. It's like waiver auction bidding.

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 14:40**

Trudge- FCFS is simply “First Come, First serve”. It’s what we do after waivers run. It’s just when players are available to be picked up free of charge without wasting a waiver spot.

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 16:33**

Also, know that whatever method we're using, I'm always going to grab any player that I see as more valuable than the least valuable guy at the end of my bench, period, whether I'll need him on my active roster or not immediately.

So should all of you!

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 17:16**

I said before that I recognize that my opinion here is the minority, so further discussion is strictly academic. I think, though, there's a trade-off on moving fast and moving with complete information, and that's why i say it's not necessarily a benefit to move fast. For instance, say I saw news of Jordan Addison's injury and quickly added a Vikings WR3 and dropped a player accordingly. Then the next day it comes out that the injury is more a 4-6 week thing and he might be ready in time for the season, and the guy I dropped is now available for someone else. I acted swiftly and wasted a move. That's the flip side.

Now, moving on from hypothetical debate, I would ACTUALLY like a system that goes:

mid June to early July draft time, whatever we decide there.

Waiver period immediately after the draft to grab/distribute the undrafted guys (A FAAB system instead of a claim order system would be fine. I don't have a strong take on that yet).

FCFS up until preseason starts (HOF Game), which is probably like a 2-4 week span depending on draft time and length

Weekly waivers from the start of preseason to the end of the playoffs, again, FAAB or waiver order; whatever we decide

I don't think there is much to be gained or gamed from having a FCFS system throughout training camps after the draft. And I do think that restricting player acquisitions when we're all going off of rumors and speculation is completely unnecessary. It isn't some major advantage to snatch up bottom-of-the-roster fliers based on camp reporting fodder. It makes training camp fun and interesting for people who want to churn their rosters and very likely has little-to-no short-term impact on the fantasy season.

That's my actual proposal, stripped down from my more absolutist personal opinions that I don't expect people to adopt.

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 17:39**

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑
21 Aug 2024 17:16
That's my actual proposal, stripped down from my more absolutist personal opinions that I don't expect people to adopt.

Looks great to me.

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 18:13**

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑
21 Aug 2024 17:16
I said before that I recognize that my opinion here is the minority, so further discussion is strictly academic. I think, though, there's a trade-off on moving fast and moving with complete information, and that's why i say it's not necessarily a benefit to move fast. For instance, say I saw news of Jordan Addison's injury and quickly added a Vikings WR3 and dropped a player accordingly. Then the next day it comes out that the injury is more a 4-6 week thing and he might be ready in time for the season, and the guy I dropped is now available for someone else. I acted swiftly and wasted a move. That's the flip side.

Now, moving on from hypothetical debate, I would ACTUALLY like a system that goes:

mid June to early July draft time, whatever we decide there.

Waiver period immediately after the draft to grab/distribute the undrafted guys (A FAAB system instead of a claim order system would be fine. I don't have a strong take on that yet).

FCFS up until preseason starts (HOF Game), which is probably like a 2-4 week span depending on draft time and length

Weekly waivers from the start of preseason to the end of the playoffs, again, FAAB or waiver order; whatever we decide
I don't think there is much to be gained or gamed from having a FCFS system throughout training camps after the draft. And I do think that restricting player acquisitions when we're all going off of rumors and speculation is completely unnecessary. It isn't some major advantage to snatch up bottom-of-the-roster fliers based on camp reporting fodder. It makes training camp fun and interesting for people who want to churn their rosters and very likely has little-to-no short-term impact on the fantasy season.

That's my actual proposal, stripped down from my more absolutist personal opinions that I don't expect people to adopt.

So QB1 breaking a leg in a TC practice and the FCFS system allowing the first person to get the alert and click the button to own QB2 is not an advantage...

Open waivers one time each week after the draft and shut down player acquisition right after until the next week.

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 20:31**

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑
21 Aug 2024 18:13

Open waivers one time each week after the draft and shut down player acquisition right after until the next week.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑
20 Aug 2024 21:30

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑
20 Aug 2024 20:21

And balancing out the rules to benefit people who will check in once or twice a week is specifically less fun
No one is talking about a person checking once or twice a week.

Ya, about that...

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 20:38**

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑
21 Aug 2024 20:31

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑
21 Aug 2024 18:13

Open waivers one time each week after the draft and shut down player acquisition right after until the next week.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑
20 Aug 2024 21:30

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑
20 Aug 2024 20:21

And balancing out the rules to benefit people who will check in once or twice a week is specifically less fun
No one is talking about a person checking once or twice a week.
Ya, about that...

Completely out of context, come on man, you are better than that... As far as I know waivers can only be run 1 time per week on fleaflicker. If that's not true and we can run waivers every other day, do that!

If they can't place all free agents on waivers right after the draft. Run waiver claims the Wednesday after the draft, then shut down free agency and place all free agent players on waivers. Open it up again on Monday to run waiver claims again on Wednesday. Repeat until season starts. If you want to locked and restart it every other day, be my guest!

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 20:47**

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑
21 Aug 2024 20:38
As far as I know waivers can only be run 1 time per week on fleaflicker.

Yes, that is specifically why I am arguing against using them all offseason. Because they run weekly. And I think it's dumb to limit camp acquisitions to once per week.

It's not out of context. It is the exact context. You said no one's talking about a system for people who only check in once or twice a week... and then proposed a system of rules for people to check in once or twice a week.

If I want to grab a guy on Thursday, I shouldn't have to wait until the following Tuesday for everyone to have their shot. If I like him based on something I read somewhere that others didn't, and then it gets picked up by a national syndicate or thrown out in a Matt Berry newsletter, then I'm pissed and disadvantaged. You are only able to see the way my idea disadvantages you. You don't recognize that there are tradeoffs and disadvantages all around so you just pick whichever one you want. You think there's a "right answer." I just prefer a loose, fun, faster pace. I know there are pros and cons. I just have an opinion. You just think you're right and I'm wrong.

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 20:49**

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑
21 Aug 2024 20:47

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑
21 Aug 2024 20:38
As far as I know waivers can only be run 1 time per week on fleaflicker.
Yes, that is specifically why I am arguing against using them all offseason. Because they run weekly. And I think it's dumb to limit camp acquisitions to once per week.

It's not out of context. It is the exact context. You said no one's talking about a system for people who only check in once or twice a week... and then proposed a system of rules for people to check in once or twice a week.

Because we are limited to the system we play in! Can we run waivers every other day? Is there a way we can lock and then reopen player additions every over day?

You're purposeful misstating and understating of the argument has become ridiculous

You are only able to see the way my idea disadvantages you. You don't recognize that there are tradeoffs and disadvantages all around so you just pick whichever one you want. You think there's a "right answer."

No, I see that your terminally online self is trying to game the system in favor of you. There is little disadvantage to waivers. Run waivers every other day for all I care.

You continually gloss over that pretty much EVERY league went away from FCFS free agency for the very reason that it is gives far more advantage to the terminally online and does not reward the skill of the manager. There are FAR less disadvantages to waivers.

There isn't a "right" answer, but your arguments to prop up your opinion are wrong. To say there is no advantage to FCFS for those who get the notification first is WRONG. To say that it really doesn't matter because it is only a player like WR3 is WRONG. To say player additions are only based off rumors and speculations is WRONG.

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 21:08**

Run a separate off season and in season FAAB. You want more fun, there you go!

https://nfc.shgn.com/rules/2074 $20,000 entry fee for this league. Never a FCFS free agency. They run waivers twice per week and FAAB system. I am pretty sure someone putting in $20K is pretty engaged in the NFL.

https://www.rtsports.com/high-stakes-fa ... ball-rules $10,000 league, same thing.

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 21:32**

Perfect example: Tomorrow in practice a defensive lineman trips and falls right into Patrick Mahomes' lower leg breaking his tibia and fibula. In a FCFS system the person who is on their phone gets the ESPN update: "Patrick Mahomes goes down in gruesome lower leg injury. Taken in ambulance to local hospital." Said person logs on to fleaflicker and promptly adds Carson Wentz who is now the undisputed starter in Kansas City for the 2024 football season. Meanwhile every other own that was working or had no access to their phone at that minute is &%$@ out of luck.

How about a semi-real example from the perspective of a non-packer fan league. Jordy Nelson goes down with what very much looks like a torn ACL. Manager with unlimited phone access gets update on phone, logs in and picks up James Jones. Jones had an OK, but unspectacular year in OAK the prior year and at 31 was still a free agent. James Jones proceeds to catching 50 balls, go for 890 yards, and 8 TDs. Terminally online manager is being rewarded for their engagement, they are being rewarded for their ability to be next to their phone.

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 21:34**

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑
21 Aug 2024 20:49
There isn't a "right" answer, but your arguments to prop up your opinion are wrong. To say there is no advantage to FCFS for those who get the notification first is WRONG. To say that it really doesn't matter because it is only a player like WR3 is WRONG.

I didn't say there are no advantages, I said it is not ALWAYS an advantage and that there are tradeoffs. I stated explicitly that acting with speed comes with a tradeoff of waiting for good information. I also pointed out that the pool of players available in this league are almost always going to be bottom-of-the-roster guys and rarely pan out.

We have 37-player offseason rosters! 37! We probably have like 350 rostered skill position players right now and I bet there are only like 500 skill position players in the actual NFL. We've got 60% of the available league rostered! Your viewpoint is that FCFS for 3 weeks of an offseason when no games are being played is some massive disadvantage because you might miss the 371st best fantasy player.... ok. If Brissett, Mariota, and Wentz (the only QB2s I see on the list of available players that I can tell) don't get grabbed in the first round of waivers, then that's on each of us if we miss them later. Almost every QB1 and QB2 is rostered right now. And other than QB, the idea that there's one clear beneficiary that everyone would instantly recognize and grab in the event of injury just doesn't hold up.

So I don't care what other leagues have done or why. Most leagues aren't organized around people who love football so much they post on a football forum. Most leagues aren't dynasty leagues. Most leagues don't have 3 QBs and 29-man regular season rosters. Most leagues don't have 3 co-commissioners. Some leagues have democracies and some have dictators. I don't care.

Of course from time to time someone will get a notification and grab the potential replacement before you. But that potential replacement will probably stink. Why else would he not be on a 37 man roster already? Figuring out who to grab and when is part of the game. Guessing who might benefit from a potential injury is part of the fun. Trying to grab a sleeper from camp before others hear about him is rewarding. It's a game, man! It's full of randomness and full of strategy and full of arbitrary choices. Let life happen. You can't control every situation and scenario. Let things rip. Let people move fast and break things. This isn't going to break society, let alone a little $20 fantasy league.

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 21:36**

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑
21 Aug 2024 21:32
Perfect example: Tomorrow in practice a defensive lineman trips and falls right into Patrick Mahomes' lower leg breaking his tibia and fibula. In a FCFS system the person who is on their phone gets the ESPN update: "Patrick Mahomes goes down in gruesome lower leg injury. Taken in ambulance to local hospital." Said person logs on to fleaflicker and promptly adds Carson Wentz who is now the undisputed starter in Kansas City for the 2024 football season. Meanwhile every other own that was working or had no access to their phone at that minute is &%$@ out of luck.

I love this example because Carson Wentz is actually terrible and will probably still get picked up on the single round of post-draft waivers

And if that happens the Chiefs still might trade for a different guy or pick up a different reserve free agent veteran and that guy might beat Wentz out.

This example is perfect. You think grabbing Wentz right away gives someone an advantage! I think he's unlikely to be available in FCFS and he's likely to amount to very little in the regular season anyway.

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 21:38**

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑
21 Aug 2024 21:32
How about a semi-real example from the perspective of a non-packer fan league. Jordy Nelson goes down with what very much looks like a torn ACL. Manager with unlimited phone access gets update on phone, logs in and picks up James Jones. Jones had an OK, but unspectacular year in OAK the prior year and at 31 was still a free agent. James Jones proceeds to catching 50 balls, go for 890 yards, and 8 TDs. Terminally online manager is being rewarded for their engagement, they are being rewarded for their ability to be next to their phone.

Posted: **21 Aug 2024 21:41**

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑
21 Aug 2024 21:36

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑
21 Aug 2024 21:32
Perfect example: Tomorrow in practice a defensive lineman trips and falls right into Patrick Mahomes' lower leg breaking his tibia and fibula. In a FCFS system the person who is on their phone gets the ESPN update: "Patrick Mahomes goes down in gruesome lower leg injury. Taken in ambulance to local hospital." Said person logs on to fleaflicker and promptly adds Carson Wentz who is now the undisputed starter in Kansas City for the 2024 football season. Meanwhile every other own that was working or had no access to their phone at that minute is &%$@ out of luck.
I love this example because Carson Wentz is actually terrible and will probably still get picked up on the single round of post-draft waivers

And if that happens the Chiefs still might trade for a different guy or pick up a different reserve free agent veteran and that guy might beat Wentz out.

This example is perfect. You think grabbing Wentz right away gives someone an advantage! I think he's unlikely to be available in FCFS and he's likely to amount to very little in the regular season anyway.

If he is so terrible, why would he be unlikely to be available?

Your understating and misstating knows no bounds.

Packers Huddle

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