Packers Huddle

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

09 Dec 2021 13:44

BF004 wrote: ↑

09 Dec 2021 13:31

I’d be all for extending Jaire and Amos.

Would bet you could probably save close to
10 million on the cap, more likely 7-8.


If we keep either Smith, would probably make sense to extend them a bit too, also freeing up some more.


I wager you got 12-15 million in savings extending Jaire, Amos and either Smith.

Absolutely, something I did not get into was extensions for some of those guys and it would make a lot of sense.
Alexander - FOREVER
Amos - 4 years
P Smith - 3 years
Z Smith - 3 years
Turner - 2-3 years
Lowry - 2-3 years

All this does is push the problem down the road. Do you really want Turner's dead cap 3 years from now when he is 33 and Yosh is the starter?
If you keep Preston and Z, they will be 32. Do you plan on not renewing Gary? Or will there be another 15 mil in dead cap?
This strategy has its own risks.

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

11 Dec 2021 03:20

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

09 Dec 2021 13:44

BF004 wrote: ↑

09 Dec 2021 13:31

I’d be all for extending Jaire and Amos.

Would bet you could probably save close to
10 million on the cap, more likely 7-8.


If we keep either Smith, would probably make sense to extend them a bit too, also freeing up some more.


I wager you got 12-15 million in savings extending Jaire, Amos and either Smith.

Absolutely, something I did not get into was extensions for some of those guys and it would make a lot of sense.
Alexander - FOREVER
Amos - 4 years
P Smith - 3 years
Z Smith - 3 years
Turner - 2-3 years
Lowry - 2-3 years

All this does is push the problem down the road. Do you really want Turner's dead cap 3 years from now when he is 33 and Yosh is the starter?
If you keep Preston and Z, they will be 32. Do you plan on not renewing Gary? Or will there be another 15 mil in dead cap?
This strategy has its own risks.

I would gladly do so if I believed we could field a 22 team like we could field a 20 and 21 team.

But I don't think that is possible. I think regardless we will take a step back in 22 and then it's just a discussion of the severity of the setback. I have no interest in pushing the cap if it means our realistic hope is getting to the Divisional Round.

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

11 Dec 2021 03:20

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

09 Dec 2021 13:44

BF004 wrote: ↑

09 Dec 2021 13:31

I’d be all for extending Jaire and Amos.

Would bet you could probably save close to
10 million on the cap, more likely 7-8.


If we keep either Smith, would probably make sense to extend them a bit too, also freeing up some more.


I wager you got 12-15 million in savings extending Jaire, Amos and either Smith.

Absolutely, something I did not get into was extensions for some of those guys and it would make a lot of sense.
Alexander - FOREVER
Amos - 4 years
P Smith - 3 years
Z Smith - 3 years
Turner - 2-3 years
Lowry - 2-3 years

All this does is push the problem down the road. Do you really want Turner's dead cap 3 years from now when he is 33 and Yosh is the starter?
If you keep Preston and Z, they will be 32. Do you plan on not renewing Gary? Or will there be another 15 mil in dead cap?
This strategy has its own risks.

I put those guys down because they are playing decent to good football and we should look into extending them if the price is right. It would also free up some 2022 cap in the process.

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

11 Dec 2021 03:03

Captain_Ben wrote: ↑

10 Dec 2021 14:03

Yoop wrote: ↑

10 Dec 2021 12:19

Russell Wilson average is not to be taken seriously

Of course he's not average now- his game has developed significantly since 2013. But in 2013 I saw a young QB who was one of the very first to successfully use the NFL's revamped PI criteria to tilt the game in his favor. I hated watching Russell Wilson in 2013 because there is relatively little skill required to toss up an uncatchable deep ball and cross your fingers that a PI flag will be thrown. But that's exactly what he did and I watched it pay off many times for him.

Anyway, regarding the thread topic- if I believed we had something in Love I'd be more inclined to say let AR walk. But based on what I've seen I'm not confident that Love can be an average QB even by today's standards. So yeah, I really hope we find a way to keep Aaron around.

You don't think that Love can do what Wilson did? He has the arm, he is reasonably mobile. And next year he will likely have a Oline that is not a patchwork of injury replacements, a rookie and second year man that barely played as a rookie. The only reason Rodgers does not get the PI calls is that he overthrows MVS so much that the pass is uncatchable.

As for points others have made, Eli Manning was never more than average. Big Ben was certainly not even average in his rookie year.

It's way too early to draw final conclusions about Love. But from what we've seen so far, I'm not confident. Think about how many QB's who have possessed the tangibles, didn't ever meet their potential. However, there are many QB's whom, if given the 2013 Seahawks defense which was the 2nd greatest in the Super Bowl era, could have done what Wilson did that year.

Captain_Ben wrote: ↑

11 Dec 2021 12:49

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

11 Dec 2021 03:03

Captain_Ben wrote: ↑

10 Dec 2021 14:03

Of course he's not average now- his game has developed significantly since 2013. But in 2013 I saw a young QB who was one of the very first to successfully use the NFL's revamped PI criteria to tilt the game in his favor. I hated watching Russell Wilson in 2013 because there is relatively little skill required to toss up an uncatchable deep ball and cross your fingers that a PI flag will be thrown. But that's exactly what he did and I watched it pay off many times for him.

Anyway, regarding the thread topic- if I believed we had something in Love I'd be more inclined to say let AR walk. But based on what I've seen I'm not confident that Love can be an average QB even by today's standards. So yeah, I really hope we find a way to keep Aaron around.

You don't think that Love can do what Wilson did? He has the arm, he is reasonably mobile. And next year he will likely have a Oline that is not a patchwork of injury replacements, a rookie and second year man that barely played as a rookie. The only reason Rodgers does not get the PI calls is that he overthrows MVS so much that the pass is uncatchable.

As for points others have made, Eli Manning was never more than average. Big Ben was certainly not even average in his rookie year.

It's way too early to draw final conclusions about Love. But from what we've seen so far, I'm not confident. Think about how many QB's who have possessed the tangibles, didn't ever meet their potential. However, there are many QB's whom, if given the 2013 Seahawks defense which was the 2nd greatest in the Super Bowl era, could have done what Wilson did that year.

Think about it. Keep Z and Preston and Gary. Keep Campbell and Mercilus. Keep Amos and Savage and Jaire and Douglas. Normal improvement from the rookies, TJ and Stokes. Clark is already staying. Why can't this D be better than that Seahawks 2013 D? The only reason the Packers can't do all this is AR's contract. And if you fix that, you almost certainly pick up another 1st round draft pick.

Russell Wilson started day one in this league and has NEVER had a game where he looked as bad as Love did against the Chiefs.

Could love become like a russ Wilson? Sure, i suppose. But to date, there is absolutely zero evidence of it.

The only thing about Love is that, the types of mistakes he was supposedly making were the ones that, if he were special, he wouldn't have been making after a year and a half in this league.

I saw it described as though it looked like he has wasted his time for the past couple years, and it makes sense to me. The caveat is that 2020 was the covid season, but he had a year and half behind Rodgers to learn how to diagnose a defense and it looked like he did about as well as I would have done in that regard, and my only experience is like ~5 years of playing Madden on and off during middle school and high school. If he was great, he wouldn't have been that bad in that specific area.

Also a lot of his throws sucked.

I don't even have go back 2 months to find a game where Russell Wilson looked worse than Jordan Love:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... 140gnb.htm

Against our team no less...

Love's performance against the Chiefs was bad. It did not instill confidence that he would become a competent NFL QB. However, let's live in reality.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

11 Dec 2021 14:03

I don't even have go back 2 months to find a game where Russell Wilson looked worse than Jordan Love:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... 140gnb.htm

Against our team no less...

Love's performance against the Chiefs was bad. It did not instill confidence that he would become a competent NFL QB. However, let's live in reality.

Yes, I invite you to join us in reality, along with anyone else who thinks a viable comp for Love is Russ Wilson.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

11 Dec 2021 14:08

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

11 Dec 2021 14:03

I don't even have go back 2 months to find a game where Russell Wilson looked worse than Jordan Love:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... 140gnb.htm

Against our team no less...

Love's performance against the Chiefs was bad. It did not instill confidence that he would become a competent NFL QB. However, let's live in reality.

Yes, I invite you to join us in reality, along with anyone else who thinks a viable comp for Love is Russ Wilson.

I didn't say that, did I? I pointed to a game very recently that blows this below statement up pretty well:

Russell Wilson... has NEVER had a game where he looked as bad as Love did against the Chiefs.

Here are 9 more games you may choose from if the first example didn't suffice: https://stathead.com/tiny/5iD1x

Here is a pretty good one: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... 270tam.htm

Again, let's live in reality and not make absurd statements to try and "prove" a point...

Let me also reiterate the statement I made in my above post: "Love's performance against the Chiefs was bad. It did not instill confidence that he would become a competent NFL QB."

You know who is much harder to find really bad games from? This guy:

https://stathead.com/tiny/HZQ4x

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

11 Dec 2021 14:19

You know who is much harder to find really bad games from? This guy:

https://stathead.com/tiny/HZQ4x

I thought his Seahawks game and first 2 quarters vs MN was pretty bad. And he had considerablly more time to throw.

I thought it was kind of funny how the "toe and Covid excuse of no practice" was okay for his situation.

I too agree. I'm not gonna say Love was good. He wasn't. It was a bad game. But I am not going to make any preconceived judgements yet either. It was one game against a defense who honestly has been playing awesome the last 6 weeks.

go pak go wrote:I'm not gonna say Love was good. He wasn't. It was a bad game. But I am not going to make any preconceived judgements yet either.

If those judgments are being made following his KC performance, how are they preconceived...?

APB wrote: ↑

11 Dec 2021 17:38

go pak go wrote:I'm not gonna say Love was good. He wasn't. It was a bad game. But I am not going to make any preconceived judgements yet either.

If those judgments are being made following his KC performance, how are they preconceived...?

Love has only been able to take roughly 2,000 reps in practice over two years where he can practice his footwork, he must get a minimum of one million reps in practice before we can make any judgements on the first round selection.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

11 Dec 2021 17:54

APB wrote: ↑

11 Dec 2021 17:38

go pak go wrote:I'm not gonna say Love was good. He wasn't. It was a bad game. But I am not going to make any preconceived judgements yet either.

If those judgments are being made following his KC performance, how are they preconceived...?

Love has only been able to take roughly 2,000 reps in practice over two years where he can practice his footwork, he must get a minimum of one million reps in practice before we can make any judgements on the first round selection.

I think inside the building they should have a good idea of his progression or lack thereof. We fans have seen too little to make a well-educated call.

Love against KC reminded me of the first time I did a hole shot with a 1972 H2 Kaw 750, to much speed

Love couldn't deal with the pass rush, he had no time to read the coverages, when he did have time to set up and throw his passes where more accurate.

It's to bad that Love was drafted during the pandemic, basically he lost his rookie season to it and it has slowed his development, the speed of the pro game ( ya don't get real game speed at practice) is the biggest obstacle hampering Love.

You know what I saw in that KC game?

I saw ST's give away the ball game. I saw the O having to start almost every series within their own 20, and often inside their own 10. Once at the 2. And yet they moved the ball consistently. Enough that Crosby had 2 gimmie FB's and missed 1 and had another blocked. I saw a muffed punt that resulted in a KC FG.

I saw a dropped interception by King and the Packers going in at halftime down 13 -0 instead of 7-6

And after that I saw the Packers abandon the running game and somebody in Love's face UNBLOCKED ON ALMOST EVERY SINGLE PLAY. Oh, not quite, let me qualify that, sometimes he had 3 (THREE) defenders in his face.

In spite of all that, the final score was 13-7. You give back the 9 points the ST gave to KC and that makes the score 13-10. Packers win. And more than that, if Love had not had to make that desperation throw that was picked with 9 minutes left in the 4th quarter and the Packers down 13-0, they should have had at least a field goal from that drive. Final score Packers 16-10 or Packers 20-10.

I dunnow, maybe I was watching a different game than you-all were. Or maybe you forgot. Maybe somebody should go back and watch the game again.

What happened with Love in Kansas City doesn't prove he can't do anything... but it also failed to prove that he can.

It left us no more informed, which is itself slightly more information.

I was more optimistic upon seeing the post-game analysts breakdown of his play than I was when watching the game itself. His ball placement was shoddy all game long, and he seemed to be forcing it to Adams instead of playing in the design of the offense.

It means he's not ready, which is a valid reason for disappointment, because one would have hoped he'd need less time to acclimate. But it doesn't mean that he won't be good ever--nor is it incredibly surprising that the very raw talent we took with poor mechanics has a longer learning curve than many others picked in his position.

It just means there's still reason for hope, but there isn't reason for a lot more than hope.


One thing it DOES mean is that we likely can't get good trade value for Love. Had he shined, it would become a viable option to look into extending Rodgers and trading Love for a late first round pick to some team that liked him coming out, and who liked the development they saw. As it is, a late 2nd or early 3rd is the best we could do and it would be cutting losses rather than returning value. So it limits our options in that regard, and also makes it more of a leap of faith to move on from Rodgers and rely on Love.

You know what else I saw?

I saw a QB making his first NFL regular season game with exactly 2 pre-season games under his belt take a beating behind a makeshift Oline. I saw him starting with having had exactly 0 practice throws with his #1 receiver. And I saw him get better as the game went on. He didn't quit and his team did not quit on him.

I saw the Packers go on the road against one of the best teams in the NFL. A super bowl team last season. A team leading its conference. And if not for a 100% collapse of special teams, a probable win by the Packers.

And what did I see 2 weeks later? Vikings won. With Rodgers at QB. A mediocre team, a below 500 team.

My takeaway?

Love isn't ready. The Packers aren't going to the SB with Love at QB next season.

But they aren't going to the SB next season with Rodgers either, minus Adams and Tonyan and Campbell and 1 or both of the Smiths.