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Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 23 Dec 2023 19:46
by Labrev
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023 17:46
Labrev wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023 17:33
Strictly speaking, that is not evidence that Capers did not know how to stop a RO-QB. It may be that he put the guys in position and they did not execute.
Which is what I believe to be the case vis-a-vis Kaepernick. I remember a big part of it was Erik Walden at EDGE always big game hunting and blowing contain over and over.
https://archive.jsonline.com/sports/pac ... 19171.html
That's evidence.
Wait, I don't get it.
I don't think anyone disputes that when the read option first came on the scene, this defense was ill-prepared for it and struggled to stop it, but it is not clear that the subsequent adjustments by Dom were schematically unsound, or if they were sound but improperly executed by the players.
So yes, we accept that he could not initially stop it, hence the need to consult some college coaches. I am not seeing anything to suggest he did not make good schematic adjustments though.
In fact, your article says that he had done his homework ahead of time and what the college D-Coords told him were all things he picked up on himself in film study. So he
did figure out what needed to be done, the failure was on execution.
So we get to guys like Walden just blowing contain over and over. You could say fairly that it on Dom to coach that guy correctly. In fact, I will help you out and add, personnel management is also on him, so maybe do not play the guy who is a run liability.
Yet if there was a better option, it stands to reason that guy would be out there. We know that that doesn't always happen, but thinking back to it, I don't remember any EDGE guys that were any more up to the task. Zombo was meh/JAG, Brad Jones was not some great run-stopper (he became a truly awful player after initially looking decent), heck even Clay for as good as he was, was not strong in run defense (he made plays in the run mainly by exploding past blockers, not being stout at the point of attack).
That ofc would fall on the GM.
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 23 Dec 2023 19:59
by Labrev
Speaking of, that article reminded me of another issue with the D that was beyond Dom's control: BJ Raji. Raji admitted that after the 2010 SuperBowl win, he was no longer playing hard.
So a Top-10 draft talent, highest pick since AJ Hawk, who you build your defense around just mails it in 2011-2013, goes on IR 2014, then comes back on a prove-it deal and plays a bit harder (which coincidentally is a better year for the defense), only to conclude his heart is not in it and has been out of the game ever since.
That's in addition to another of other great misfortunes: Collins, Woodson, Hayward, Shields. And the replacements were not simply downgrades, they were wretched, either forced to play way above their talent level or just were not NFL-caliber guys at all.
And yes, fans wrongly blamed Dom for it. Exonerate Capers!!
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 23 Dec 2023 20:15
by Pckfn23
Labrev wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023 19:46
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023 17:46
Labrev wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023 17:33
Strictly speaking, that is not evidence that Capers did not know how to stop a RO-QB. It may be that he put the guys in position and they did not execute.
Which is what I believe to be the case vis-a-vis Kaepernick. I remember a big part of it was Erik Walden at EDGE always big game hunting and blowing contain over and over.
https://archive.jsonline.com/sports/pac ... 19171.html
That's evidence.
Wait, I don't get it.
I don't think anyone disputes that when the read option first came on the scene, this defense was ill-prepared for it and struggled to stop it, but it is not clear that the subsequent adjustments by Dom were schematically unsound, or if they were sound but improperly executed by the players.
So yes, we accept that he could not initially stop it, hence the need to consult some college coaches. I am not seeing anything to suggest he did not make good schematic adjustments though.
In fact, your article says that he had done his homework ahead of time and what the college D-Coords told him were all things he picked up on himself in film study. So he
did figure out what needed to be done, the failure was on execution.
So we get to guys like Walden just blowing contain over and over. You could say fairly that it on Dom to coach that guy correctly. In fact, I will help you out and add, personnel management is also on him, so maybe do not play the guy who is a run liability.
Yet if there was a better option, it stands to reason that guy would be out there. We know that that doesn't always happen, but thinking back to it, I don't remember any EDGE guys that were any more up to the task. Zombo was meh/JAG, Brad Jones was not some great run-stopper (he became a truly awful player after initially looking decent), heck even Clay for as good as he was, was not strong in run defense (he made plays in the run mainly by exploding past blockers, not being stout at the point of attack).
That ofc would fall on the GM.
The meeting with the college coaches happened after the Divisional game.
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 23 Dec 2023 20:19
by Pckfn23
Labrev wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023 19:59
Speaking of, that article reminded me of another issue with the D that was beyond Dom's control: BJ Raji. Raji admitted that after the 2010 SuperBowl win, he was no longer playing hard.
So a Top-10 draft talent, highest pick since AJ Hawk, who you build your defense around just mails it in 2011-2013, goes on IR 2014, then comes back on a prove-it deal and plays a bit harder (which coincidentally is a better year for the defense), only to conclude his heart is not in it and has been out of the game ever since.
That's in addition to another of other great misfortunes: Collins, Woodson, Hayward, Shields. And the replacements were not simply downgrades, they were wretched, either forced to play way above their talent level or just were not NFL-caliber guys at all.
And yes, fans wrongly blamed Dom for it. Exonerate Capers!!
Absolutely there were talent deficiencies, but teams like 2014 should have been better than they were.
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 24 Dec 2023 05:43
by TheSkeptic
Lose out and fire Capers.
And then find Fritz Shurmur 2.0 He is out there somewhere, as a position coach or in the colleges. Smart, respected by the players ( that almost always means a former player himself at the college or NFL level ) and aggressive. Scheme does not matter, adjustments and tweaks and disguises matter. Mostly teach the players to play aggressive and with swagger. And adjust to the strengths of the players - put them into a position to succeed.
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 24 Dec 2023 05:53
by Yoop
nice work Labrev,
again Capers had a run of bad luck, to many injuries, and to many weak positions, and as usual, rather then accept those deficienies and limitations fans just blame Capers.
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 24 Dec 2023 12:00
by Trudge
Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023 18:13
Labrev wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023 17:33
Strictly speaking, that is not evidence that Capers did not know how to stop a RO-QB. It may be that he put the guys in position and they did not execute.
Which is what I believe to be the case vis-a-vis Kaepernick. I remember a big part of it was Erik Walden at EDGE always big game hunting and blowing contain over and over.
Po-tay-to, po-tah-to. Who coached Walden all year? Oh yeah, Capers!
(Yes, I'm still salty about those games.)
Was more the OLB coach. I don't know who he was though.
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 24 Dec 2023 12:03
by Crazylegs Starks
Trudge wrote: ↑24 Dec 2023 12:00
Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023 18:13
Labrev wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023 17:33
Strictly speaking, that is not evidence that Capers did not know how to stop a RO-QB. It may be that he put the guys in position and they did not execute.
Which is what I believe to be the case vis-a-vis Kaepernick. I remember a big part of it was Erik Walden at EDGE always big game hunting and blowing contain over and over.
Po-tay-to, po-tah-to. Who coached Walden all year? Oh yeah, Capers!
(Yes, I'm still salty about those games.)
Was more the OLB coach. I don't know who he was though.
Kevin Greene for sure in 2012, but I can't remember if he left before or after the 2013 season
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 24 Dec 2023 12:14
by Pckfn23
Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑24 Dec 2023 12:03
Trudge wrote: ↑24 Dec 2023 12:00
Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023 18:13
Po-tay-to, po-tah-to. Who coached Walden all year? Oh yeah, Capers!
(Yes, I'm still salty about those games.)
Was more the OLB coach. I don't know who he was though.
Kevin Greene for sure in 2012, but I can't remember if he left before or after the 2013 season
I think he was gone by the 2013 season, yes.
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 24 Dec 2023 12:53
by Labrev
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023 20:19
Absolutely there were talent deficiencies, but teams like 2014 should have been better than they were.
They forced FIVE turnovers in the 2014 NFCCG.
Not to mention they held Brady/eventual SB-winning Patriots to 21 in our win over them that year. This while we were on the Elite QB budget, and we thought Capers was bad.
Honestly maybe this fanbase deserves Pettine and now Barry.
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 24 Dec 2023 12:54
by Trudge
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑24 Dec 2023 12:14
Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑24 Dec 2023 12:03
Trudge wrote: ↑24 Dec 2023 12:00
Was more the OLB coach. I don't know who he was though.
Kevin Greene for sure in 2012, but I can't remember if he left before or after the 2013 season
I think he was gone by the 2013 season, yes.
Actually 2014.
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 24 Dec 2023 12:55
by Pckfn23
Labrev wrote: ↑24 Dec 2023 12:53
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023 20:19
Absolutely there were talent deficiencies, but teams like 2014 should have been better than they were.
They forced FIVE turnovers in the 2014 NFCCG.
Not to mention they held Brady/eventual SB-winning Patriots to 21 in our win over them that year. This while we were on the Elite QB budget, and we thought Capers was bad.
Honestly maybe this fanbase deserves Pettine and now Barry.
That's what I mean, that should have been the defense all season, but it wasn't.
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 24 Dec 2023 15:19
by BF004
Why isn’t win out, fire Barry on the way, and make the playoffs an option?
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 24 Dec 2023 15:21
by Pckfn23
BF004 wrote: ↑24 Dec 2023 15:19
Why isn’t win out, fire Barry on the way, and make the playoffs an option?
Too easy
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 24 Dec 2023 15:27
by wallyuwl
BF004 wrote: ↑24 Dec 2023 15:19
Why isn’t win out, fire Barry on the way, and make the playoffs an option?
MLF is trying to find answers. Stop thinking getting rid of the problem will help find answers.
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 26 Dec 2023 17:20
by APB
BF004 wrote: ↑24 Dec 2023 15:19
Why isn’t win out, fire Barry on the way, and make the playoffs an option?
Because we live in a world of absolutes. It's all or nothing.
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 26 Dec 2023 18:17
by dsr
It was a nice Christmas present that everyone who voted got a good result. The "win out" voters got the win, while the "lose and fire Barry" voters didn't get the loss, but they got a defensive performance almost worse than could be imagined.
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 26 Dec 2023 18:36
by Madcity_matt
dsr wrote: ↑26 Dec 2023 18:17
It was a nice Christmas present that everyone who voted got a good result. The "win out" voters got the win, while the "lose and fire Barry" voters didn't get the loss, but they got a defensive performance almost worse than could be imagined.
Sad that with 19 seconds left on the clock we were all thinking, "here we go again"
19 seconds. And they almost did.
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 26 Dec 2023 21:31
by wallyuwl
Madcity_matt wrote: ↑26 Dec 2023 18:36
dsr wrote: ↑26 Dec 2023 18:17
It was a nice Christmas present that everyone who voted got a good result. The "win out" voters got the win, while the "lose and fire Barry" voters didn't get the loss, but they got a defensive performance almost worse than could be imagined.
Sad that with 19 seconds left on the clock we were all thinking, "here we go again"
19 seconds. And they almost did.
To the worst offense in the league. They needed 20 seconds but had 19.
Re: Would You Rather
Posted: 26 Dec 2023 22:31
by Pugger
Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑22 Dec 2023 16:11
Easy: We aren't going to win a playoff game with Barry anyway! The answer is obvious
What playoff caliber team are we going to beat with Barry in charge of this defense?