Packers Huddle

BF004 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 09:44

I still think 40 time is near worthless for a ILB and not sure why we still use it.

Unless its like 4.9 +, or sub 4.5, it means next to nothing IMO.

At least use 3 cone or SS.

Even broad or vertical would be a better indication of their acceleration and quickness.

I don't fully agree. Obviously the full athletic profile is more useful, but 40 time does translate to the ability to run sideline-to-sideline, IMO. Something Blake Martinez sucked at. Partially because he was a step slow, partially because he lacked explosive traits, but also, even when he was shot out of the cannon, he physically could not get there first. Blake ran a 4.71. I said that is still in the sweet pot, but its definitely right at the order. I would be happy if the Packers had a firm athletic cut-off for that much closer to 4.6.

Let's draft Logan Wilson in the 3rd and Shaun Bradley in the 5th or 6th.

Blake's 40 is just 'fine'. It is very well above average for an off ball linebacker.


Want to see why seems to lack explosion? Check out his jumps. 28½ vert and 113" broad. Both are dreadful, particularly that vertical.

I guess I am curious.

What does an ideal LB profile look like? Who around the league would be an ideal fit here and why?

Have a feeling we might have very differing opinions here.

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 09:35

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 09:19

Baun ran a 4.65 and weighed 238 pounds at the combine... Might need to reevaluate if that is too slow for ILB and not too light for OLB.

4.65 is not fast for a 3 dn lber in this era, other wise teams wouldn't take guys like Queen, or Shaziers, or the two top ones last year, so for my preference, yes it's to slow.

4.65 is not too slow. Anything under 4.75 is not really a concern. Queen and Shazier are exceptionally fast, not the rule. Teams are also taking guys like.
Kuechly - 4.58
Mosley - 4.63
Jones - 4.59
Leonard - 4.7
Vander Esch - 4.65
Hightower - 4.68
David - 4.65

who was that guy that did it for us when we won the SB, then went to the Colts an d had 10 sacks the following year? you and others are stereo graphing these players,

Erik Walden was not sub-240, he is 250. He had 11 sacks in 2016, not 2011, and has never had more than 6 in a season before or after that. He has been an average starter. I guarantee if Baun had a career like him, everyone would be disappointed. Stereographing these guys? You mean like this:

It is an interesting comment though that we are stereotyping players by saying there are few or none that have good careers under 240 as edge rushers and yet it isn't stereotyping to say that running a 4.65 is too slow when there are concrete examples of players who are currently top ILBs and ran just that fast or slower.

obviously you wouldn't want Baum as a full time OLB in a 34, but it doesn't mean he can't be productive there rotating from ILB.

I thought he was too slow to play ILB?

and there have been plenty of sub 240 lb edge rushers,

There have been plenty of sub-240 edge rushers that we would consider good? Who are they?

BF004 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 10:25

I guess I am curious.

What does an ideal LB profile look like? Who around the league would be an ideal fit here and why?

Have a feeling we might have very differing opinions here.

Maybe a better indicator would be cut offs, because I would love to have a 300 pound ILB who runs a 4.3 and moves like a corner, but that ain't happening.

Here are my cutoffs where I wouldn't consider taking them in the 1st round:
Height: 6-1
Weight: 230
40 Yard Dash (ET): 4.7
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 18
Vertical Jump: 34
Broad Jump: 9' 6"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.3
3-Cone Drill: 7.2

Some wiggle room in there, but probably my thresholds.

BF004 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 10:25

What does an ideal LB profile look like? Who around the league would be an ideal fit here and why?

Fred Warner would be almost ideal, for me. Really athletic build, but still big enough and physical enough. And effortlessly flies on the football field.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/san-francisco ... 019-season

This is my ideal ILB, Luke Kuechly:
Height: 6032
Weight: 242
40 Yard Dash (ET): 4.58
20 Yard (ET): 2.63
10 Yard (ET): 1.57
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 27
Vertical Jump: 38
Broad Jump: 10'03"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.12
3-Cone Drill: 6.92
https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/lu ... ition=OBLB

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 10:39

BF004 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 10:25

I guess I am curious.

What does an ideal LB profile look like? Who around the league would be an ideal fit here and why?

Have a feeling we might have very differing opinions here.

Maybe a better indicator would be cut offs, because I would love to have a 300 pound ILB who runs a 4.3 and moves like a corner, but that ain't happening.

Here are my cutoffs where I wouldn't consider taking them in the 1st round:
Height: 6-1
Weight: 230
40 Yard Dash (ET): 4.7
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 18
Vertical Jump: 34
Broad Jump: 9' 6"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.3
3-Cone Drill: 7.2

Some wiggle room in there, but probably my thresholds.

Is there a nice googlespreadsheet somewhere with prospects and their combine results?

NCF wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 09:42

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 09:35

4.65 is not fast for a 3 dn lber in this era

It's not slow, either. Its in the sweet spot. I'd put a cut-off on 4.75 as slow as I would possibly accept in today's game. As far as "fast". Anything under a 4.6. I think Oren Burks is right at 4.6 and that is plenty fast if it ever clicks for him.

geesh, you people are more ol school then Iam, how can u ask a ILB to cover a TE that can run circles around him, not to mention the RB's who are even faster? it just doesn't work, last year there where a half Doz lbers that ran 4.5, this year I think there are 8, if ya want to get back to more 2 ILB formations, then both running high 4.6's wont cut it, thats status quo and has forced us to use a hybrid safety with more speed on passing downs, which almost every down, so I have to disagree.

I've had trouble finding combine stats for things like the 3 cone and shuttle, so 40 time is about all there is to go by

NCF wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 10:42

BF004 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 10:25

What does an ideal LB profile look like? Who around the league would be an ideal fit here and why?

Fred Warner would be almost ideal, for me. Really athletic build, but still big enough and physical enough. And effortlessly flies on the football field.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/san-francisco ... 019-season

Looks like the only stark contrast from Blake is the jumping ability.


Measurable Measurement %tile
Height 6' 2" 65
Weight 237 lbs 23
Arm Length 31⅝" 33
Hand Size 10⅞" 99
10 Yard Split 1.61s 69
40 Yard Dash 4.71s 65
Vertical Jump 28½" 5
Broad Jump 113" 39
3-Cone Drill 6.98s 75
20 Yard Shuttle 4.2s 77
Bench Press 22 reps 49

BF004 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 10:56

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 10:39

BF004 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 10:25

I guess I am curious.

What does an ideal LB profile look like? Who around the league would be an ideal fit here and why?

Have a feeling we might have very differing opinions here.

Maybe a better indicator would be cut offs, because I would love to have a 300 pound ILB who runs a 4.3 and moves like a corner, but that ain't happening.

Here are my cutoffs where I wouldn't consider taking them in the 1st round:
Height: 6-1
Weight: 230
40 Yard Dash (ET): 4.7
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 18
Vertical Jump: 34
Broad Jump: 9' 6"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.3
3-Cone Drill: 7.2

Some wiggle room in there, but probably my thresholds.

Is there a nice googlespreadsheet somewhere with prospects and their combine results?

I wish, but alas the best I can find is something like mockdraftable.com

Fred Warner is a good one.

Luke Kuechly is probably my ideal: a little bigger at 6'3" 242
4.58 SEC 40-yard
27 REPS on the bench
38.0 INCH vert
123.0 INCH broad
6.92 SEC 3-cone
4.12 SEC short shuttle

Roquan Smith only ran at the combine, and is a bit smaller: 6'1" 235, but ran a 4.51

My ideal is probably 6'1" - 6'3", 240ish, 4.5 - 4.6, with a 3-cone in the 6.9-7.1 range, with a vert of 34"+ and broad of around 120"

Blake Martinez against all other 2nd level Linebackers:

BF004 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 10:58

Looks like the only stark contrast from Blake is the jumping ability.

And ELITE 10 & 20 yard splits. Don't have Blake's handy, but given the percentiles, Warner gets going better than most.

Q: Why is Zach Baun being sought as an EDGE to off-ball convert in the early rounds, but a guy like Carter Coughlin from Minnesota isn't? Both had some coverage responsibilities; both were recruited as LBs. Both played in the Big Ten. His sack numbers aren't quite as impressive (high season of 9.5 compared to Baun's 12.5), but that's less important if they're shifting positions. Coughlin was a little faster than Baun (4.57 to 4.65), jumped higher (36 to 32.5") and farther (121 to 115).

I feel like I'd rather roll the dice on Coughlin's position conversion than Baun's AND he's a late round prospect rather than a higher round prospect.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:08

Q: Why is Zach Baun being sought as an EDGE to off-ball convert in the early rounds, but a guy like Carter Coughlin from Minnesota isn't?

He probably is. Just because the media isn't talking about it doesn't mean teams aren't thinking it.

NCF wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:04

BF004 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 10:58

Looks like the only stark contrast from Blake is the jumping ability.

And ELITE 10 & 20 yard splits. Don't have Blake's handy, but given the percentiles, Warner gets going better than most.

I also think it's worth mentioning that Blake's 4.71 and Warner's 4.64 definitely breach some kind of barrier. I know it's nitpicky to say 0.07 seconds of speed is important, but when you're looking at a preferred range of around 4.55 - 4.65, Warner is just on the cusp of that, and Martinez easily outside of it. I don't know if that makes much more difference than the explosion visible in the jumps and splits, but I think it's noteworthy enough to mention as a difference.

NCF wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:12

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:08

Q: Why is Zach Baun being sought as an EDGE to off-ball convert in the early rounds, but a guy like Carter Coughlin from Minnesota isn't?

He probably is. Just because the media isn't talking about it doesn't mean teams aren't thinking it.

True. I guess I'd take either in the 4th-6th; I just think only one of them is properly valued.

Here is what it looks like for the average for 2nd Level linebackers:
Height: 6-1.5
Weight: 241
40 Yard Dash: 4.71
10 Yard Split: 1.61
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22
Vertical Jump: 34"
Broad Jump: 116"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.26
3-Cone Drill: 7.1