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Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 08:02
by Yoop
NCF wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 07:45
Yoop wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 07:14
And while we know little about Love, the little we saw was far from impressive so the future is still a untold story, all we can do is hope he turns out like Gary, but this crap that we need to wait for 3 years for draft picks to even be a quality starter is rediculous
Most don't take it to extremes. Most realize that year one contributions are gravy and should not be the expectation. Especially in the case of drafting super young, toolsy players that will take some time by design. Gary fits in that category, as does a guy like Kenny Clark. Guess what, Jordan Love definitely fits in that category. No one described Love as a polished player coming out in The Draft. He was a guy with all the tools that you could mold into a top-level QB. That is my point. 3 years, blah, blah... every one of these guys is different and the timelines should be different based on individual circumstances.
Let's rewind the clock 15 years to January 2007. Over the course of that offseason Packer nation was unified in adding Rodgers to whatever trade package was necessary to acquire Randy Moss. Rodgers had showed nothing and getting anything for him was the goal. Argue all you want, if we had reacted rashly to Rodgers development to that point, what a mistake it would have been. I'm not saying Love gets three years. There is a lot to factor in there. You want to see progression, elimination of recurring mistakes, feel him becoming the guy you envisioned on Draft Day. He might not make it through 2022 or it might take 3 years to figure everything out. It all depends. We will have to see and trust we know when we know. But I am begging, can we give the guy more than 6 quarters, because I assure you, no one knows today despite their insistence that they do.
I disagree that Packer nation was all in on trading Rodgers to get Moss, never even heard of such a thing.
also position transition college to pro are different, QB being the toughest, then DL closely follows, edge rusher is well down the list, same as CB, those two positions often become starters year one and do well
I would be the first here to say Love or any QB should be coached up a year or two prior to starting, confidence in one self is key to success, failure destroys confidence, and DL play is all about leverage and OL play in the pros is ten times as good as college, thats why it's a high rate bust position., the situation between Clark and Gary is night and day imho.
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 08:07
by Drj820
go pak go wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 08:01
Drj820 wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 08:00
go pak go wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 07:57
Sounds like somebody listen to Mike Wahle with Andy Herman.
I’ve never listened to them haha but maybe they are smart
Maybe.
Or maybe they are just using the strategist of every other analyst and say enough things that you have a large enough portfolio to pull from that you can say, "I was right".
I think that’s what’s irking me a bit about the direction of this discussion. I’m not really worried about that, and I haven’t really declared that I think Lafleur is just being carried by Rodgers.
I don’t think that, I think he’s done a great job overall. I’m just saying he hasn’t gotten his due because of Rodgers, and now he will get his chance. That’s all I’m saying. I also laid out what I think are reasonable benchmarks to gauge his success.
4 wins, maybe Rodgers did Carry him
8-10, a great year of coaching from a very good coach
13+, epic all time coach, COTY.
Ñot really trying to be right in any of those. I’m quick to admit right and wrong with actual hot takes. I was wrong on Tonyan and Barry. And right that promoting from within on an awful ST unit was an awful idea. Haven’t made too many other hard stances
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 08:14
by go pak go
Yoop wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 07:38
go pak go wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 07:23
You only name one example of one player in 2019 with retrospective view in place of Gary and then with the multitude of data we have brought over the years of rookies contributing effectively early being a minority of top 100 picks and you use the phrase "people take this D&D process to the extreme"
what position change, more crappola, edge is edge whether you rush from the 7 or 9 hole, and Gary had a lot to learn, still does, his sack to pressure count is still a tad low, I love the progress Gary has made, but Simmons has been a starter since day one, and he would have been my choice, there where several others I liked over Gary too.
If I'am picking 12 in the draft I want someone that can contribute soon in there first year, obviously I expect them to improve for several years after that to reach there ceiling, to wait for 3 years on every draft pick to develop as a quality starter translates to always being in rebuild mode, sorta spells out our defense from 2011 till 2020
I know who you liked. You liked Bush before the draft a lot and you liked Cody Ford a lot. In 2019 you complained about not besting Steelers' trade offer to get Bush. Then during the season you started going down the Noah Fant route because our passing offense sucked so he filled that need.
Then in 2020 you gravitated toward Jeff Simmons because he was good and Gary was still on the bench.
It is always a bonus when a player like Eric Stokes steps in right away and is amazing. But having that as the expectation will set you up for a lot of disappointment.
The way to build a team successfully long term is to just minimize the misses. Even if it takes 3 years to develop, it will work out because if you always have a crop of drafts reaching their own in year 3, they will fill in the holes that are there. And most importantly, it is best to get your best years out of a player in Year 3 to 8 of their NFL career. You need to hit on their 2nd contract. The worst thing that can happen is you sign a huge fat signing bonus to a player to meet the market and to be a team leader only to see them being a contract disappointment.
Aaron Rodgers, Jordy Nelson, Nick Collins, Devante Adams, Z Smith, Preston Smith, Donald Driver....I could go on and on. These are the players who reached their peak while on their 2nd NFL contract. And they are some of the best Packers legends and fond lookbacks from Packers fans. Their contract and investment was worth it. They were great picks and or great signings.
Again, I am not saying I don't want to hit that rookie year. Everybody does and it is so, so great when you have years that you do. But the more important thing is to just minimize your misses.
It's like stock picking. To truly get to the mogul status of a Warren Buffet, he says the most important thing is to not lose. Minimize your losses so you can then take advantage of your hits even further.
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 08:21
by German_Panzer
Pugger wrote: ↑23 Jan 2022 08:53
Most here believe it is time to start over and deal Rodgers away. I suspect Gute will not want Rodgers in the NFC but he may not have a choice. What potential suitors do you think we can make a deal with? Has his trade value taken a hit last night?
I want Rodgers back. It is not like Favre in 2008 where u could see the end. #12 has easily 4 top years in him and that is an eternity in the NFL. I do not share this defeatistic attitude of Packernation. I also believe MLF is not a good coach, just mediocre and riding on Rodgers back.
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 08:27
by go pak go
Yoop wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 08:02
I disagree that Packer nation was all in on trading Rodgers to get Moss, never even heard of such a thing.
I guarantee that NCF is right here.
There was a section of the fanbase that didn't want to let go of the player but was in on a 2nd rounder. But by and large a very big section wanted whatever it took and they viewed giving up Rodgers as being very little compensation.
Perception of Rodgers changed slightly in Dallas in 2007 but honestly not much. We look back fondly now with hindsight. But even Rodgers himself has said the first time he truly felt accepted in GB was walking into the locker room after beating Detroit in week 17 2008 to a standing ovation.
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 08:31
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 08:14
Yoop wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 07:38
go pak go wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 07:23
You only name one example of one player in 2019 with retrospective view in place of Gary and then with the multitude of data we have brought over the years of rookies contributing effectively early being a minority of top 100 picks and you use the phrase "people take this D&D process to the extreme"
what position change, more crappola, edge is edge whether you rush from the 7 or 9 hole, and Gary had a lot to learn, still does, his sack to pressure count is still a tad low, I love the progress Gary has made, but Simmons has been a starter since day one, and he would have been my choice, there where several others I liked over Gary too.
If I'am picking 12 in the draft I want someone that can contribute soon in there first year, obviously I expect them to improve for several years after that to reach there ceiling, to wait for 3 years on every draft pick to develop as a quality starter translates to always being in rebuild mode, sorta spells out our defense from 2011 till 2020
I know who you liked. You liked Bush before the draft a lot and you liked Cody Ford a lot. In 2019 you complained about not besting Steelers' trade offer to get Bush. Then during the season you started going down the Noah Fant route because our passing offense sucked so he filled that need.
Then in 2020 you gravitated toward Jeff Simmons because he was good and Gary was still on the bench.
It is always a bonus when a player like Eric Stokes steps in right away and is amazing. But having that as the expectation will set you up for a lot of disappointment.
The way to build a team successfully long term is to just minimize the misses. Even if it takes 3 years to develop, it will work out because if you always have a crop of drafts reaching their own in year 3, they will fill in the holes that are there. And most importantly, it is best to get your best years out of a player in Year 3 to 8 of their NFL career. You need to hit on their 2nd contract. The worst thing that can happen is you sign a huge fat signing bonus to a player to meet the market and to be a team leader only to see them being a contract disappointment.
Aaron Rodgers, Jordy Nelson, Nick Collins, Devante Adams, Z Smith, Preston Smith, Donald Driver....I could go on and on. These are the players who reached their peak while on their 2nd NFL contract. And they are some of the best Packers legends and fond lookbacks from Packers fans. Their contract and investment was worth it. They were great picks and or great signings.
Again, I am not saying I don't want to hit that rookie year. Everybody does and it is so, so great when you have years that you do. But the more important thing is to just minimize your misses.
It's like stock picking. To truly get to the mogul status of a Warren Buffet, he says the most important thing is to not lose. Minimize your losses so you can then take advantage of your hits even further.
I understand the talent progression of draft picks, never said I expect rookies to play as well in year one as they will in year 3, simply that first rounders at some position should start at some point year one, these are not extreme expectations as they happen on every team every year.
just like everyone here including you I had a short list of college players I liked, as usual for me they played a position of need for us, obviously receiver was one, same with DL, I like Cody Ford, but not as much as Simmons, we had just spent 100 mil on the Smiths, edge rusher was not among my short list, we had other needy positions to fill.
again what could you have possibly known about Gary for you to be so high on Guty taking him? I can't even get my mind around that comment, I saw very little to like, and just because he did turn out well doesn't lend hindsite to who he was at Mich.
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 08:34
by Drj820
[mention]Yoop[/mention]
Here is another thing to mention to the people who are upset you didn’t like the Gary pick.
Is he turning into a good player? Certainly looks like he is to me.
But does the 12th overall pick turning into a good player, make him a good pick?
Well, his first two seasons he was a backup. During that time, we made it to 2 NFCCGs and lost. Could a better pick have been more immediately useful and impactful in those games and helped us win? Maybe, very possible.
Now..Rodgers is leaving, Adams is leaving etc etc and Gary is becoming a very good player. Would a player that had more impact while those guys were around have been a better use of the pick? Possibly.
And if Gary is good now, and he was picked to be good in this new packers era, this new window..then that means the org has been planning for the post Rodgers era, and maybe we shouldn’t have too low of expectations for the next couple of years. After all, the team has prepared for it. Drafted a Rb, signed back a rb, drafted a center, a cb, Gary, about to resign Jaire.
Point being, if Gary was such a good pick..and he was picked to have impact in this upcoming era, competing for the division crown should be a reasonable expectation.
I think competing for that crown in a post Rodgers world will be fun and extremely satisfying to achieve next year
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 08:34
by BF004
I wanted to include Rodgers to trade for Moss.
Given Favre was still an MVP candidate 3 years later in Minnesota, and seeing what Moss did with Brady, potentially wouldn’t have been a bad move. Would have had a fair shot at winning at least one.
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 08:46
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 08:27
Yoop wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 08:02
I disagree that Packer nation was all in on trading Rodgers to get Moss, never even heard of such a thing.
I guarantee that NCF is right here.
There was a section of the fanbase that didn't want to let go of the player but was in on a 2nd rounder. But by and large a very big section wanted whatever it took and they viewed giving up Rodgers as being very little compensation.
Perception of Rodgers changed slightly in Dallas in 2007 but honestly not much. We look back fondly now with hindsight. But even Rodgers himself has said the first time he truly felt accepted in GB was walking into the locker room after beating Detroit in week 17 2008 to a standing ovation.
what section of fandom are you referring to? I was around back in 08 and I don't remember even a mention of Rodgers for Moss, the deal was for a 3rd round draft pick, and we lost out on that offer, NO WHERE was mentioned that we offered or even thought of offering Rodgers, sure as heck no fan that had all there faculties, thats insane.
not sure what this conversation has to do with anything except to again point out that we need to give Love more time, I agree.
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 08:48
by go pak go
BF004 wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 08:34
I wanted to include Rodgers to trade for Moss.
Given Favre was still an MVP candidate 3 years later in Minnesota, and seeing what Moss did with Brady, potentially wouldn’t have been a bad move. Would have had a fair shot at winning at least one.
Honestly it's really sad to think about but it actually might be true from a number of trophies perspective. You replace 2007 with 2010 and then have a decade to try and figure something else out.
Also, with how well Favre played in 2009, we could have had more cracks at the apple with Favre and Moss in 2008 and 2009.
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 08:49
by RingoCStarrQB
German_Panzer wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 08:21
Pugger wrote: ↑23 Jan 2022 08:53
Most here believe it is time to start over and deal Rodgers away. I suspect Gute will not want Rodgers in the NFC but he may not have a choice. What potential suitors do you think we can make a deal with? Has his trade value taken a hit last night?
I want Rodgers back. It is not like Favre in 2008 where u could see the end. #12 has easily 4 top years in him and that is an eternity in the NFL. I do not share this defeatistic attitude of Packernation. I also believe MLF is not a good coach, just mediocre and riding on Rodgers back.
Now that the 3 straight 13 win seasons combined with a 2 and 3 playoff record for LaCoach is settling in .... being clearly on board with the Panzer view seems like the most reasonable course of action going forward.
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 08:50
by BF004
Yeah. Definitely many were willing to include Rodgers in a trade for Moss.
Not sure how you don’t even remember a ‘mention’ of it.
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 08:51
by Pckfn23
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 08:57
by Pckfn23
BF004 wrote: ↑28 Jan 2022 21:11
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑28 Jan 2022 19:18
Why is next year the measuring stick? Why not the next 3 years?
There are many who'd rather think they won a debate rather than try to be correct.
But yes, like judging Rashan Gary as a rookie, would be foolish to overly judge LaFleur in a transition year and not give it ample time.
Hehe, look what you did!
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 08:58
by go pak go
Yoop wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 08:46
go pak go wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 08:27
Yoop wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 08:02
I disagree that Packer nation was all in on trading Rodgers to get Moss, never even heard of such a thing.
I guarantee that NCF is right here.
There was a section of the fanbase that didn't want to let go of the player but was in on a 2nd rounder. But by and large a very big section wanted whatever it took and they viewed giving up Rodgers as being very little compensation.
Perception of Rodgers changed slightly in Dallas in 2007 but honestly not much. We look back fondly now with hindsight. But even Rodgers himself has said the first time he truly felt accepted in GB was walking into the locker room after beating Detroit in week 17 2008 to a standing ovation.
what section of fandom are you referring to? I was around back in 08 and I don't remember even a mention of Rodgers for Moss, the deal was for a 3rd round draft pick, and we lost out on that offer, NO WHERE was mentioned that we offered or even thought of offering Rodgers, sure as heck no fan that had all there faculties, thats insane.
not sure what this conversation has to do with anything except to again point out that we need to give Love more time, I agree.
Sometimes it's just better to say "trust me". My memory is pretty good.
It was 2007 offseason. Not 2008. New England got him for a 4th. But before that, rumors were strong we wanted him as Favre and Moss always wanted to play with each other.
Early rumors were 2nd rounder for Moss. Then rumors moved to Rodgers for Moss (and some other small compensation). Then the price started to drop approaching the draft once it seemed we were getting cold feet. On Sunday of the draft, the Pats stepped in to get him for a 4th rounder.
It was the most pissed off I have ever been on draft day until April 2020. You don't just forget things like that.
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 09:09
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 08:58
Yoop wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 08:46
go pak go wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 08:27
I guarantee that NCF is right here.
There was a section of the fanbase that didn't want to let go of the player but was in on a 2nd rounder. But by and large a very big section wanted whatever it took and they viewed giving up Rodgers as being very little compensation.
Perception of Rodgers changed slightly in Dallas in 2007 but honestly not much. We look back fondly now with hindsight. But even Rodgers himself has said the first time he truly felt accepted in GB was walking into the locker room after beating Detroit in week 17 2008 to a standing ovation.
what section of fandom are you referring to? I was around back in 08 and I don't remember even a mention of Rodgers for Moss, the deal was for a 3rd round draft pick, and we lost out on that offer, NO WHERE was mentioned that we offered or even thought of offering Rodgers, sure as heck no fan that had all there faculties, thats insane.
not sure what this conversation has to do with anything except to again point out that we need to give Love more time, I agree.
Sometimes it's just better to say "trust me". My memory is pretty good.
It was 2007 offseason. Not 2008. New England got him for a 4th. But before that, rumors were strong we wanted him as Favre and Moss always wanted to play with each other.
Early rumors were 2nd rounder for Moss. Then rumors moved to Rodgers for Moss (and some other small compensation). Then the price started to drop approaching the draft once it seemed we were getting cold feet. On Sunday of the draft, the Pats stepped in to get him for a 4th rounder.
It was the most pissed off I have ever been on draft day until April 2020. You don't just forget things like that.
never was much for the rumor mills, I was upset that Ted didn't out bid NE for moss, still don't remember Rodgers being in the conversation, course he wasn't when it came to our FO, just some gossip tossed around to sell print.
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 09:15
by Yoop
BF004 wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 08:50
Yeah. Definitely many were willing to include Rodgers in a trade for Moss.
Not sure how you don’t even remember a ‘mention’ of it.
probably because it's the most absurd thing imaginable, who would trade a 25th pick QB for a old WR like Moss after grooming that young QB for just two years, and contrary to some opinions Rodgers imo showed plenty of promise in 07.
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 09:31
by NCF
Yoop wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 09:15
probably because it's the most absurd thing imaginable, who would trade a 25th pick QB for a old WR like Moss after grooming that young QB for just two years, and contrary to some opinions Rodgers imo showed plenty of promise in 07.
Contrary to almost no one... there it is, right there, in your own writing. Rodgers showed plenty of promise in
07... his 3rd year in the league. Yet, Love you don't see it... through 2 seasons. You didn't see it with Aaron, either, through 2 seasons. The Moss talk/rumors, whatever you want to call it, were before that 07 season. Sometimes patience pays off.
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 09:57
by Yoop
NCF wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 09:31
Yoop wrote: ↑29 Jan 2022 09:15
probably because it's the most absurd thing imaginable, who would trade a 25th pick QB for a old WR like Moss after grooming that young QB for just two years, and contrary to some opinions Rodgers imo showed plenty of promise in 07.
Contrary to almost no one... there it is, right there, in your own writing. Rodgers showed plenty of promise in
07... his 3rd year in the league. Yet, Love you don't see it... through 2 seasons. You didn't see it with Aaron, either, through 2 seasons. The Moss talk/rumors, whatever you want to call it, were before that 07 season. Sometimes patience pays off.
Rodgers showed some poise in 07, and had played in more games including PS games, Rodgers at that point imo was more ready to start then Love is now.
I don't feel like going and looking up all the info pertaining to the Moss time line, I mean who really gives a crap about that? it didn't happen thank God Ted didn't listen to people like you or your brother.
same thing with Love, if the coaches think he may have a bright future then trading him for some old vet with a year or so left in the tank would be idiotic.
Re: Rodgers future
Posted: 29 Jan 2022 11:32
by go pak go
Yoop. If there is one thing you bring...it is entertainment.
Still missed the point of NCF's post.
