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Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 09:24
by Pugger
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 09:27
by Pugger
go pak go wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 09:15
2010 defense vs 2020 defense.
Dlinemen 1. BJ Raji < Kenny Clark.
Dlinemen 2. Cullen Jenkins > Dean Lowry/Montravious Adams/Kingsley Keke
Dlinemen 3. Ryan Pickett > Tyler Lancaster
ILB 1. Desmond Bishop > Then what we have seen so far. Position is still molding
ILB 2. AJ Hawk > Then what we have seen so far. Position is still molding
OLB 1. Clay Matthews = Zadarius Smith
OLB 2. Brad Jones/Erik Walden/Frank Zombo < Preston Smith/Rashan Gary
CB1. Tramon Williams < Jaire Alexander
CB2. Charles Woodson > Kevin King (remmber Shields was still developing at this time)
Nickle Corner. Sam Shield = Chandon Sullivan (though this isn't as far off as I thought earlier this year)
FS. Nick Collins > Darnell Savage
SS. Charlie Peprah < Adrian Amos
We are not that far off.
2010 Edge:
Cullen Jenkins
Ryan Pickett
Desmond Bishop
AJ Hawk
Charles Woodson
Nick Collins
2020 Edge:
Kenny Clark
Jaire Alexander
Preston Smith/Rashan Gary
Adrian Amos
Wash:
Pass Rusher #1
Nickle Corner
We just need Clark to play better. Seriously. I think Clark has been a massive disappointment this year and let our ILB mold into itself. If we do that, we should be able to stop the run better and hopefully our edge guys can feel more free to do their thing. This can be a top 10 defense.
I wonder if Clark still isn't 100% but he at less that that is better than anything else we have?
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 09:31
by go pak go
Pugger wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 09:27
I wonder if Clark still isn't 100% but he at less that that is better than anything else we have?
I wouldn't call Kenny Clark our best defensive linemen as far as quality of play so far this year.
I think Kinglsey Keke and Montravious Adams are playing better then Clark and Tyler Lancaster is also probably playing better then Clark.
I don't think it gets talked enough of how poorly Clark has been playing. I don't know why is he sucking. If it is injury related. Then sit his a$$ on the sideline and let him heal because what he is putting out there is helping nobody.
Michael Robonsin's (won the SB with the 2013 Seahawks) quote of Kenny Clark:
"Kenny Clark, bro don't ever put that on film ever again. You're too good of a player. I hope you're watching this show right now. Very concerned about your performance last week against the Minnesota Vikings."
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 10:43
by Drj820
go pak go wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 09:31
Pugger wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 09:27
I wonder if Clark still isn't 100% but he at less that that is better than anything else we have?
I wouldn't call Kenny Clark our best defensive linemen as far as quality of play so far this year.
I think Kinglsey Keke and Montravious Adams are playing better then Clark and Tyler Lancaster is also probably playing better then Clark.
I don't think it gets talked enough of how poorly Clark has been playing. I don't know why is he sucking. If it is injury related. Then sit his a$$ on the sideline and let him heal because what he is putting out there is helping nobody.
Michael Robonsin's (won the SB with the 2013 Seahawks) quote of Kenny Clark:
"Kenny Clark, bro don't ever put that on film ever again. You're too good of a player. I hope you're watching this show right now. Very concerned about your performance last week against the Minnesota Vikings."
I would guess kenny sees way more double teams and gets way more attention than those guys you mentioned as playing better.
That said, everytime kenny doesn’t play well we ask if He’s injured. Every player at this point is fairly banged up, if he is only high quality when he is 100%...then the deal we gave him should be compared to the deal the cowboys gave Zeke in terms of awfulness.
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 11:14
by Yoop
the whole defense is playing sub norm, most team defenses are playing sub norm, so to me it's difficult to assess and assign grades to players, so much about defense depends on playing partners doing there job so that players don't also have to think about also supporting them, we as fans simply fail to account for just how important that is, yet we hear players mention stuff like this all the time.
DL play depends so much on energy, strength, and emotion, having to play with dingers and injury is normal of course, however it obviously means it's much harder to play well, or to play consistent, it becomes two brain thinking, for instance, one side of the brain thinks about how bad your balls hurt as a result of the groin pull, the other side is saying come on kick it up a notch and reach the edge, low IQ guys are totally confused and just stand there like a statue
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 12:23
by TheGreenMan
go pak go wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 09:15
2010 defense vs 2020 defense.
Dlinemen 1. BJ Raji < Kenny Clark.
Dlinemen 2. Cullen Jenkins > Dean Lowry/Montravious Adams/Kingsley Keke
Dlinemen 3. Ryan Pickett > Tyler Lancaster
ILB 1. Desmond Bishop > Then what we have seen so far. Position is still molding
ILB 2. AJ Hawk > Then what we have seen so far. Position is still molding
OLB 1. Clay Matthews = Zadarius Smith
OLB 2. Brad Jones/Erik Walden/Frank Zombo < Preston Smith/Rashan Gary
CB1. Tramon Williams < Jaire Alexander
CB2. Charles Woodson > Kevin King (remmber Shields was still developing at this time)
Nickle Corner. Sam Shield = Chandon Sullivan (though this isn't as far off as I thought earlier this year)
FS. Nick Collins > Darnell Savage
SS. Charlie Peprah < Adrian Amos
We are not that far off.
2010 Edge:
Cullen Jenkins
Ryan Pickett
Desmond Bishop
AJ Hawk
Charles Woodson
Nick Collins
2020 Edge:
Kenny Clark
Jaire Alexander
Preston Smith/Rashan Gary
Adrian Amos
Wash:
Pass Rusher #1
Nickle Corner
We just need Clark to play better. Seriously. I think Clark has been a massive disappointment this year and let our ILB mold into itself. If we do that, we should be able to stop the run better and hopefully our edge guys can feel more free to do their thing. This can be a top 10 defense.
Alexander better than 2010 Williams?
Man Matthews was an animal then. Clay definitely played the run better than Smith does, by a country mile.
That 2010 team was really special on D.
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 13:32
by BF004
Clay was really good, only in his 2nd year if I recall. Not better than Za’Darius was last year.
I think X facto Charles Woodson on the field, off the field, locker room, team leader >>>>>>>>> Anyone we have now by a mile.
Jaire is turning into a game altering player just getting the ability to erase a teams best player, but he also isn’t making the game changing plays the way someone like Nick Collins could do.
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 14:12
by go pak go
Clay 2010 was an animal.
But Zadarius Smith, when playing at his prime is more of an animal.
I truly think we got the horses to have a top 10 defense. Our players just have to play to their level. Kenny Clark cannot be our 2nd/3rd best defensive linemen.
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 14:14
by go pak go
TheGreenMan wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 12:23
Alexander better than 2010 Williams?
Man Matthews was an animal then. Clay definitely played the run better than Smith does, by a country mile.
That 2010 team was really special on D.
They were for stretches for sure. They also peaked at a really, really time.
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 14:29
by Drj820
We all know the packers love their measurables. We have lots of guys with decent measurables. Any killers tho? Any guys we worry about that we will hear on the news they murdered someone? Anybody an offense walks onto the field scared that they might get injured by?
It’s not a measurable or talent issue (outside of ILB), it’s a mentally and a desire to be physical issue. These guys tackle the way they do bc they look like they just wanna trip someone most of the time.
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 14:47
by go pak go
Drj820 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 14:29
We all know the packers love their measurables. We have lots of guys with decent measurables. Any killers tho? Any guys we worry about that we will hear on the news they murdered someone? Anybody an offense walks onto the field scared that they might get injured by?
It’s not a measurable or talent issue (outside of ILB), it’s a mentally and a desire to be physical issue. These guys tackle the way they do bc they look like they just wanna trip someone most of the time.
Jaire is a killer for his size. Jackson and King are very good tacklers for CBs.
Smiths and Gary should be good tacklers and are field tilters. Kenny Clark has a reputation of being a bad man.
Yes. We have the players to be killers. They just have to do it.
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 15:51
by Drj820
go pak go wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 14:47
Drj820 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 14:29
We all know the packers love their measurables. We have lots of guys with decent measurables. Any killers tho? Any guys we worry about that we will hear on the news they murdered someone? Anybody an offense walks onto the field scared that they might get injured by?
It’s not a measurable or talent issue (outside of ILB), it’s a mentally and a desire to be physical issue. These guys tackle the way they do bc they look like they just wanna trip someone most of the time.
Jaire is a killer for his size. Jackson and King are very good tacklers for CBs.
Smiths and Gary should be good tacklers and are field tilters. Kenny Clark has a reputation of being a bad man.
Yes. We have the players to be killers. They just have to do it.
You think offenses worry that Jaír, Preston, Kevin King, or even Kenny Clark is gonna take their head off when they step on the field? I don’t.
I would say the only two players on our defense that offensive coordinators even consider double teaming or game planning around would be Kenny or Z.
No receiver coming across the middle worries about getting decapitated by a safety, no running back worries about getting popped when they come into the hole from a middle linebacker.
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 16:27
by TheGreenMan
BF004 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 13:32
Clay was really good, only in his 2nd year if I recall. Not better than Za’Darius was last year.
I think X facto Charles Woodson on the field, off the field, locker room, team leader >>>>>>>>> Anyone we have now by a mile.
Jaire is turning into a game altering player just getting the ability to erase a teams best player, but he also isn’t making the game changing plays the way someone like Nick Collins could do.
Definitely.
Though a little bit of Nick Collins sure did help things. Man, I missed that guy in the secondary.
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 17:31
by Pckfn23
Not that it matters a whole lot, but Dexter Williams out with an MCL sprain.
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 17:35
by Yoop
BF004 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 13:32
Clay was really good, only in his 2nd year if I recall. Not better than Za’Darius was last year.
I think X facto Charles Woodson on the field, off the field, locker room, team leader >>>>>>>>> Anyone we have now by a mile.
Jaire is turning into a game altering player just getting the ability to erase a teams best player, but he also isn’t making the game changing plays the way someone like Nick Collins could do.
I tend to find these comparisons futile, ya have to compare opponents over the course of the season as well as ability of team mates, scheme tasks and responsibility's, just so many variables that play into this stuff, course I'am biased towards Mathews some, and Z has really only had one year, and now seems to be playing better so we'll see if he can change my mind.
I was so high on Mathews the year he was drafted, then for Ted to trade back up to get him just blew me away, my faith in Ted Thompson really spiked after that
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 17:35
by go pak go
Drj820 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 15:51
go pak go wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 14:47
Drj820 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 14:29
We all know the packers love their measurables. We have lots of guys with decent measurables. Any killers tho? Any guys we worry about that we will hear on the news they murdered someone? Anybody an offense walks onto the field scared that they might get injured by?
It’s not a measurable or talent issue (outside of ILB), it’s a mentally and a desire to be physical issue. These guys tackle the way they do bc they look like they just wanna trip someone most of the time.
Jaire is a killer for his size. Jackson and King are very good tacklers for CBs.
Smiths and Gary should be good tacklers and are field tilters. Kenny Clark has a reputation of being a bad man.
Yes. We have the players to be killers. They just have to do it.
You think offenses worry that Jaír, Preston, Kevin King, or even Kenny Clark is gonna take their head off when they step on the field? I don’t.
I would say the only two players on our defense that offensive coordinators even consider double teaming or game planning around would be Kenny or Z.
No receiver coming across the middle worries about getting decapitated by a safety, no running back worries about getting popped when they come into the hole from a middle linebacker.
I don't think there many players in the league that are like that anymore. The league has done a really good job of taking those players away.
Plus, those players we usually don't like because they play dumb. I feel like Atari Bigby was the last player for the Packers who had a real smack to his hit. But he was an idiot and couldn't last more then 2 years because all he could do was hit. Troy Paulumalu would be terrible in today's game.
I mean Khalil Mack and Anthony Barr are the two players in our division I think players don't want to get hit by.
But even their impact is significantly less than it was 2 or 3 years ago.
I think the one common thing we see from all of our "feared" defenses is a very good ILB. Now San Fran and Seattle got lucky. They just so happened to draft one late and it worked great. MN, PIT and CHI spent heavy resources on theirs. I'm still pissed we didn't get Kendricks or Watt. New Orleans got lucky with a FA signing that worked out. And TB had a guy there and supplemented him because they were so bad for so long.
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 18:36
by Drj820
go pak go wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 17:35
Drj820 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 15:51
go pak go wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 14:47
Jaire is a killer for his size. Jackson and King are very good tacklers for CBs.
Smiths and Gary should be good tacklers and are field tilters. Kenny Clark has a reputation of being a bad man.
Yes. We have the players to be killers. They just have to do it.
You think offenses worry that Jaír, Preston, Kevin King, or even Kenny Clark is gonna take their head off when they step on the field? I don’t.
I would say the only two players on our defense that offensive coordinators even consider double teaming or game planning around would be Kenny or Z.
No receiver coming across the middle worries about getting decapitated by a safety, no running back worries about getting popped when they come into the hole from a middle linebacker.
I don't think there many players in the league that are like that anymore. The league has done a really good job of taking those players away.
Plus, those players we usually don't like because they play dumb. I feel like Atari Bigby was the last player for the Packers who had a real smack to his hit. But he was an idiot and couldn't last more then 2 years because all he could do was hit. Troy Paulumalu would be terrible in today's game.
I mean Khalil Mack and Anthony Barr are the two players in our division I think players don't want to get hit by.
But even their impact is significantly less than it was 2 or 3 years ago.
I think the one common thing we see from all of our "feared" defenses is a very good ILB. Now San Fran and Seattle got lucky. They just so happened to draft one late and it worked great. MN, PIT and CHI spent heavy resources on theirs. I'm still pissed we didn't get Kendricks or Watt. New Orleans got lucky with a FA signing that worked out. And TB had a guy there and supplemented him because they were so bad for so long.
I agree those guys are around less than they used to be. But all of the good defenses still have them, and that’s what we want to be right?
Start with what you said about all of our feared defenses...they all had a great ILB, and even today the all the good defenses seem to have one. Yet we refuse to put resources in the position, and it shows...wonder why?
I like your list of guys in division to fear and would add Roquon Smith and potentially Eddie Jackson to the list. At this point I think a dummy that decleats people would be worth the attitude he brings, even if he cost us some penalty yardage.
Almost like a slugger in baseball that constantly strikes out...the strikeouts suck but pitchers are scared he’s gonna hit a dinger on em at any time.
I guess my larger point is we always wonder why we suck, i think it’s because we don’t strike fear in offenses...and beyond that bc most good defenses have a great inside linebacker, and our coaching staff and front office don’t seem to think putting resources into one is necessary. Then wonder why we can’t stop the run.
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 20:42
by go pak go
I completely agree Dr. J. I have no idea why the Packers have basically said ILB is a worthless position as a franchise when it seems that is the strongest correlation to having a good defense in this league.
What is so frustrating about our ILB woes is we have had the chance for both Erik Kendricks, Tremain Edmunds and Patrick Queen and passed up on both of them.
I don't get it either. Was the bad taste of AJ Hawk that repulsive to this franchise?
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 07 Nov 2020 21:38
by Drj820
go pak go wrote: ↑07 Nov 2020 20:42
I completely agree Dr. J. I have no idea why the Packers have basically said ILB is a worthless position as a franchise when it seems that is the strongest correlation to having a good defense in this league.
What is so frustrating about our ILB woes is we have had the chance for both Erik Kendricks, Tremain Edmunds and Patrick Queen and passed up on both of them.
I don't get it either. Was the bad taste of AJ Hawk that repulsive to this franchise?
thought we were debating in a friendly way, but now I see we are on the same side of this issue
I love the inside linebacker position, and I love watching great linebackers dominate games and impose their will. It hurts me we don’t think that it is a key component to stopping the run or a good d in general
I guess I just feel we name all the things we do have, and we do have some good pieces on defense! And a lot of resources on the d! But we never have good inside linebacker play, and I believe that is a key component to an elite defense. Obviously Pettine doesn’t tho!
Re: 49ers GDT
Posted: 08 Nov 2020 07:33
by go pak go
Yeah. I think the Packers approach was to look for smaller guys with athleticism at ILB surrounded by studs in the rest of the front 7. Oren Burks. Ty Summers. Blake Martinez. Joe Thomas (or whatever his name was). Even Kirksey and Martin are smaller and faster.
I think the hope was if we surround these ILBs with stud pass rushers and Dlinenmen, then we can make the ILB's job easier and we don't need a high end player to make things work.
And honestly, I think that could work this year, for the exception of two things.
1. Our supporting front 7 is playing like sh*t this year.
2. We need to invest in another game changing Dlinemen if we want to ensure the ILB can't get swept up.
