Kirksey was 2nd in the league in tackles heading into week 3.
Then I just really suck with my eyes.
This is why I like data yoop. The eye test has failed me.
ehhh, I/We like clarity unless it goes against our perception, data shows both to be pretty much run stuffers, course where only 3 games into this season, but we both know that Blake lacks reaction and instincts in pass coverage, the jury is still out on Kirksey, and both have played well this season as the3 data illustrates..
Re: Green Bay Packers @ New Orleans Saints GDT - 9/27 - 7:20 CST
Posted: 29 Sep 2020 08:07
by Pckfn23
both have played well this season as the data illustrates..
Unfortunately it does not illustrate that. It illustrates Kirksey doing NOTHING more than tackling in a defense that funnels to the ILB. Martinez is making plays behind the line of scrimmage.
Re: Green Bay Packers @ New Orleans Saints GDT - 9/27 - 7:20 CST
Posted: 29 Sep 2020 08:22
by YoHoChecko
I mean I understand the concern--I do.
But 2/3 of our evidence on the defense comes when we're down our literal best player on that side of the ball, behind which we KNOW we have massive depth issues.
Like, if someone said "imagine your defense without Kenny Clark," isn't this what even the optimists would have suspected it would look like?
If Clark were out for the year, or if Clark and now Kirksey were, I'd be a lot more concerned at how we're going to address several of these shortcomings. But it's a long season and we're going to get Clark back and Kamal Martin back and Kirksey back.
And yes, I'd still like to see better depth. Claim Timmy Jenrigan, trade for Steve McLendon, convince Marcel Dareus to get off the sideline and get in shape. I'd love to see that instead of Prevellion or Billy Winn.
But I'm also not going to try to diagnose issues when the prescription is to bring back Kenny Clark and then see how we feel.
Re: Green Bay Packers @ New Orleans Saints GDT - 9/27 - 7:20 CST
both have played well this season as the data illustrates..
Unfortunately it does not illustrate that. It illustrates Kirksey doing NOTHING more than tackling in a defense that funnels to the ILB. Martinez is making plays behind the line of scrimmage.
ya it actually does, with Clark, Kirksey was leading the league in tackles, minus Clark he was still right with the league leaders, and Pettine uses him different then the Giants use Blake.
neither is our answer as a complete ilb, Kirksey was the better value according to our FO
Re: Green Bay Packers @ New Orleans Saints GDT - 9/27 - 7:20 CST
both have played well this season as the data illustrates..
Unfortunately it does not illustrate that. It illustrates Kirksey doing NOTHING more than tackling in a defense that funnels to the ILB. Martinez is making plays behind the line of scrimmage.
ya it actually does, with Clark, Kirksey was leading the league in tackles,
And what a 1.5 quarters (3 drives) that was.
Re: Green Bay Packers @ New Orleans Saints GDT - 9/27 - 7:20 CST
Posted: 29 Sep 2020 08:53
by go pak go
Herman with the defensive grades.
Worst two grades - Will Redmond and Preston Smith.
Best grades - Didn't really get into it though he said Summers and Keke did well. Summers would have been really positive if not for missed tackles. Dline as a whole did decent he said.
I am thinking about joining the Packer Report. He is doing a good job and I want to support him. Great stuff he, Ross and the help of Ben Fennel are doing at the Packer Report.
Re: Green Bay Packers @ New Orleans Saints GDT - 9/27 - 7:20 CST
both have played well this season as the data illustrates..
Unfortunately it does not illustrate that. It illustrates Kirksey doing NOTHING more than tackling in a defense that funnels to the ILB. Martinez is making plays behind the line of scrimmage.
ya it actually does, with Clark, Kirksey was leading the league in tackles, minus Clark he was still right with the league leaders, and Pettine uses him different then the Giants use Blake.
neither is our answer as a complete ilb, Kirksey was the better value according to our FO
Tackles are great, but he does NOTHING else. A big goose egg in every other stat. Compared to Martinez with 2 sacks, 2 QB Hits, and 4 TFLs.
Marintez and Kirsey are being used similarly. Kirksey has been average at best this season while Martinez is once again a top 2nd level linebacker.
This was a pretty poor trade off. I guess we get what we pay for. Now we need to hope Summers can progress even more, Burks can finally find it, and Martin can come in and be the savior!
Re: Green Bay Packers @ New Orleans Saints GDT - 9/27 - 7:20 CST
But 2/3 of our evidence on the defense comes when we're down our literal best player on that side of the ball, behind which we KNOW we have massive depth issues.
Like, if someone said "imagine your defense without Kenny Clark," isn't this what even the optimists would have suspected it would look like?
If Clark were out for the year, or if Clark and now Kirksey were, I'd be a lot more concerned at how we're going to address several of these shortcomings. But it's a long season and we're going to get Clark back and Kamal Martin back and Kirksey back.
And yes, I'd still like to see better depth. Claim Timmy Jenrigan, trade for Steve McLendon, convince Marcel Dareus to get off the sideline and get in shape. I'd love to see that instead of Prevellion or Billy Winn.
But I'm also not going to try to diagnose issues when the prescription is to bring back Kenny Clark and then see how we feel.
More than 2/3's. Kenny Clark if I remember right went down in the mid 2nd quarter correct? So we hardly know a defense with Kenny Clark.
Re: Green Bay Packers @ New Orleans Saints GDT - 9/27 - 7:20 CST
Unfortunately it does not illustrate that. It illustrates Kirksey doing NOTHING more than tackling in a defense that funnels to the ILB. Martinez is making plays behind the line of scrimmage.
ya it actually does, with Clark, Kirksey was leading the league in tackles,
And what a 1.5 quarters (3 drives) that was.
That was a whole 15 snaps!
Just more yoop lies. Let's call them what they are. Budda Baker actually led the league in tackles the first week.
Re: Green Bay Packers @ New Orleans Saints GDT - 9/27 - 7:20 CST
Posted: 29 Sep 2020 09:07
by go pak go
The more I think about it the more I am mad at Mike Pettine.
The first Kamara run I put more on Z and Amos. So those aren't Pettine's fault.
But the other two Kamara plays...the 3rd and 15 conversion and then the Kamara screen pass TD.
Both of those plays were started because we relied on Will Redmond to make a tackle in space. First, why is it we are having our worst person in the secondary being fully matched on their more than double best player? I mean Kamara is their offense.
2nd, if we are going to put our worst defender on their best player...then why not at least give Redmond the courtesy and give the dude some help? These plays would have been prevented if a Chandon Sullivan, Darnell Savage, Adrian Amos even Ty Summers was there to help out. Give Kamara the completion, but ensure Redmond doesn't need to make an open field tackle on the best open field (Tyreek HIll could be here too) playmaker in the game.
Absolutely ridiculous and stupid.
We allowed 30 and honest to goodness we should have allowed 17. So much of this defense this year is once again just two or three mind boggling stupid plays giving us a bad taste in our mouth.
Re: Green Bay Packers @ New Orleans Saints GDT - 9/27 - 7:20 CST
ya it actually does, with Clark, Kirksey was leading the league in tackles,
And what a 1.5 quarters (3 drives) that was.
That was a whole 15 snaps!
Just more yoop lies. Let's call them what they are. Budda Baker actually led the league in tackles the first week.
I've had it with you calling me a lier you sorry SOB, I said he led the league because a MEMBER HERE SAID HE DID, CALL HIM THE LIER
and big deal 1 tackle in 3 games, and KIrksey was right up with the leaders through 2 games, neither has defended a pass and you have no idea how the Giants use Blake, have you watched them play all 3 games? obviously there using him to shoot gaps, where we use Kirksey in more contain.
Re: Green Bay Packers @ New Orleans Saints GDT - 9/27 - 7:20 CST
The more I think about it the more I am mad at Mike Pettine.
The first Kamara run I put more on Z and Amos. So those aren't Pettine's fault.
But the other two Kamara plays...the 3rd and 15 conversion and then the Kamara screen pass TD.
Both of those plays were started because we relied on Will Redmond to make a tackle in space. First, why is it we are having our worst person in the secondary being fully matched on their more than double best player? I mean Kamara is their offense.
2nd, if we are going to put our worst defender on their best player...then why not at least give Redmond the courtesy and give the dude some help? These plays would have been prevented if a Chandon Sullivan, Darnell Savage, Adrian Amos even Ty Summers was there to help out. Give Kamara the completion, but ensure Redmond doesn't need to make an open field tackle on the best open field (Tyreek HIll could be here too) playmaker in the game.
Absolutely ridiculous and stupid.
We allowed 30 and honest to goodness we should have allowed 17. So much of this defense this year is once again just two or three mind boggling stupid plays giving us a bad taste in our mouth.
could it be that Redmond looks the best in practice, but it doesn't transfer to the games?
we play a ton of zone because some of our positional players suck in man, both those plays where zone if memory serves, and we couldn't hide Redmond.
Re: Green Bay Packers @ New Orleans Saints GDT - 9/27 - 7:20 CST
could it be that Redmond looks the best in practice, but it doesn't transfer to the games?
we play a ton of zone because some of our positional players suck in man, both those plays where zone if memory serves, and we couldn't hide Redmond.
If so, I think we've seen enough now.
I'd cut the scrub, but he plays a ton of ST so I guess he can stick around.
I hated him on the field last year and I hate him on the field this year. Pure liability. Absolutely below replacement level play. You could pick up a free agent off the street and expect similar. No reason to keep the guy around. I only even had him earning a roster spot because some experience in the covid year seemed nicer than relying on Scott
Re: Green Bay Packers @ New Orleans Saints GDT - 9/27 - 7:20 CST
Posted: 29 Sep 2020 09:21
by BF004
You know, after thinking about this more, it was frustrating we weren't doing more to take Kamara out of the game.
But short of just some really bad tackling, it was actually pretty effective.
On the contrary, the Saints sold out on stopping Jones and played a lot of man and we carved them up.
If our tackling was even average on Kamara, which should be the expectation, we pretty much win this thing going away.
Say whatever you will about our coaching staff decisions, but it seems to be the right call just about every time. Even strangely going with Turner over Wagner at RT who has looked really good, but O doesn't skip a beat. I am somewhat convinced it doesn't really matter who we play where right now on the right side there, they are all good enough and the O is just hot. But I could be wrong, perhaps Wagner would have had his issues Sunday night for whatever reason.
Re: Green Bay Packers @ New Orleans Saints GDT - 9/27 - 7:20 CST
Just more yoop lies. Let's call them what they are. Budda Baker actually led the league in tackles the first week.
I've had it with you calling me a lier you sorry SOB, I said he led the league because a MEMBER HERE SAID HE DID, CALL HIM THE LIER
and big deal 1 tackle in 3 games, and KIrksey was right up with the leaders through 2 games, neither has defended a pass and you have no idea how the Giants use Blake, have you watched them play all 3 games? obviously there using him to shoot gaps, where we use Kirksey in more contain.
It is a lie. If you have had it, don't do it. Claiming that with Clark on the field Kirksey led the league in tackles is exactly that. Like always it is a fabrication to try and support a point that is false.
So you are claiming I wouldn't know because you believe I haven't watched all three Giants games, but you claim you know how the Giants are using Martinez...? Do you not see your own hypocrisy?
Martinez has had a superior season compared to Kirskey... Not debatable.
Re: Green Bay Packers @ New Orleans Saints GDT - 9/27 - 7:20 CST
You know, after thinking about this more, it was frustrating we weren't doing more to take Kamara out of the game.
But short of just some really bad tackling, it was actually pretty effective.
On the contrary, the Saints sold out on stopping Jones and played a lot of man and we carved them up.
If our tackling was even average on Kamara, which should be the expectation, we pretty much win this thing going away.
Say whatever you will about our coaching staff decisions, but it seems to be the right call just about every time. Even strangely going with Turner over Wagner at RT who has looked really good, but O doesn't skip a beat. I am somewhat convinced it doesn't really matter who we play where right now on the right side there, they are all good enough and the O is just hot. But I could be wrong, perhaps Wagner would have had his issues Sunday night for whatever reason.
I think this is definitely valid, but I think a bit of a scheme change would have helped as well. Playing man with a Safety or even Burks on Kamara may have not allowed him to get in space as much. He was catching it with a lot of room to work.
