Page 4 of 7
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 11:08
by lake shark
APB wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 11:01
go pak go wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 10:40
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 10:35
Just a refresher on the Adams money situation.
The year BEFORE his final year in GB, he was trying to negotiate a new deal. He wanted to be the highest paid WR (and he deserved to be, in general terms).
At The Time, D.Hop's contract in Arizona was an outlier in new money/new years because they gave him an extension with 2 years (maybe even 3) left on his deal. His new money/new years was something like $27M or $29M a year and the next highest in the league was around $24M/year. The Packers gave Adams an offer that was better than all the other contracts in the league over the life of the deal, but still had less new money/new years than Hopkins due to the structure of Hopkins' deal and the way they announced it.
Adams decided before that season that the inability to get what he wanted meant he would leave after the season. After the Packers tagged him, they DID offer more than the Raiders, allegedly. But by then the lack of that offer the prior year had made up his mind. Yes, family and Carr were big factors, but they were only factors once he decided to leave.
I love Adams, but I do think the demand to match Hopkins' numbers despite the different context of the deals was unreasonable. Since, the WR market has exploded even higher, and the case can be made that we would have been better off giving him what he wanted that offseason. But I understood both negotiating points at the time.
Yup. And frankly now Adams got his money. He got his endorsements but he's losing games. He may have a different thought process going into this new negotiation. I don't think a reunion is dead. I think there is a decent chance both sides could see a world for reunion.
Same.
I don’t necessarily think it’s likely but I wouldn’t categorize the that door as closed, either.
Unfortunately the FA cupboard for WR is pretty bare. You have Tee Higgins, and the a bunch of players who are inconsistent (Amari Cooper), too old (Hopkins), always injured (Hollywood Brown) or head cases (Diggs and D. Johnson) or a product of the system (Lazard) or more than one of these categories. So if Davante is cut you almost have to seriously consider it, put the price will be high in this market.
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 11:13
by Scott4Pack
Tae WANTS to return to GB, I think. But he also wants to be WANTED here. Maybe he considers a hometown discount?
Also, Tom Clements is headed to retirement. At least MLF mentioned that. So we need a new QB Whisperer. He's been more than great. Will be hard to replace.
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 11:21
by lake shark
go pak go wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 11:03
lake shark wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 10:54
Pugger wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 10:31
I was just addressing his notion of having veteran leadership not any player in particular. I mentioned X as an example. When we won our last 2 Super Bowls we had leaders like Reggie and Woodson.
Correct I was referring to veteran presence in general. Ideally they are also star players. Go Pack Go is advising signing veterans in 2025, which I’m all for. I also wasn’t speaking to the loss of talent in terms of Rasul or Preston. Clearly Preston was declining. That doesn’t mean you can’t keep him on the team and rotate Cox in more and have him help Cox get better. I just think that leadership is worth more than a 7th round pick.
I think the idea of veteran presense helps. But when we get specific, you can't deny that our pass rush got better after Smith left. Though a 7th round pick is small compensation, the immediate net result to GB on the field was a positive. So I just can't get on board with saying trading away players is a bad thing. High level it sounds good....specific situation it does not. We also saved half a season in Preston Smith Compensation.
Great point on the compensation, I had neglected to recall that. Still we shouldn’t focus everything on individual on-field production. I think there are leadership intangibles that have value in increasing the culture/morale/resiliency/moxie or whatever you want to call it of a team in aggregate.
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 11:28
by Labrev
LombardiTime wrote: ↑13 Jan 2025 19:45
That said, I am apparently also an outlier when it comes to how good the wide receivers are.
More specifically, I think Doubs is a physically limited possession receiver with little upside and now a track record of concussions. I also think his quitting on the team during the season is a huge red flag that the team ignores at its peril.
Watson is physically gifted, but after three seasons I have serious doubts about his durability. I also view his on the field play as being not much better than what MVS gave us. Coming off of an ACL, does anyone seriously expect Watson to contribute much in 2025 -- his contract year? I sure don't.
I asee Wicks as a 5th round pick with poor hands. He also lacks explosiveness.
The only current guy I have much faith in is Jayden Reed and that is purely as a slot receiver.
Comparing the Pack's WR room with those of the NFC teams still left in the playoffs shows GB's talent is not close to its competitors.
Washington (Terry McLaurin)
Detroit (Amon-Ra St. Brown & Jameson Williams)
Philly (AJ Brown & DeVonta Smith)
LA Rams (Puka Nacua & Cooper Kupp)
Minnesota (Justin Jefferson & Jordan Addison)
I expect that if the Packers give Jordan Love some better receivers to throw to his production will increase correspondingly.
Last year people jumped on the bandwagon of my WR opinion because it was working and was fashionable. This year it did not work great and the sheep are retreating from this.
My stance has not changed. Our present model is good, they just need to perform (also I think the WR coach probably should be canned).
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 11:41
by Backthepack4ever
Tee Higgins will want big bucks and missed as many games as Watson the last couple years. I also don't think he moves the needle much. I'm for Adams if he is over being the highest paid. Hope he is looking for a ring
I'm more concerned not using the Tes. Kraft proved all year he is a weapon. Use him. Musgrave needs looks also when healthy. ML needs to play to his strengths and get his QB to do the same.
Ol needs depth. Change at center and hopefully Morgan can slide in at guard. I like the tackles but more from the interior.
Alot to like on the d. Stars at safety and Cooper was playing like an all pro. Year 2 jump and he's unreal. We do need cb help. The guys we have are ok but can be upgraded. I think ja is gone and don't see a rookie fixing that in this window.
I'm a trenches guy. Draft dl and pass rushers early. Grant is my fav early. D Lawrence type inside. The window is now. I'm also calling for edge rushers on rebuilding teams. Get studs at all positions and make teams fear playing this d. That makes life for the o so much easier when the d is punishing.
Fix the mistakes. Undisciplined team falls on the coach. I really though ML crapped the bed this year. He needs to check himself and his staff.
The window is open and alot to be pumped about. Be aggressive this off-season
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 11:50
by go pak go
Labrev wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 11:28
LombardiTime wrote: ↑13 Jan 2025 19:45
That said, I am apparently also an outlier when it comes to how good the wide receivers are.
More specifically, I think Doubs is a physically limited possession receiver with little upside and now a track record of concussions. I also think his quitting on the team during the season is a huge red flag that the team ignores at its peril.
Watson is physically gifted, but after three seasons I have serious doubts about his durability. I also view his on the field play as being not much better than what MVS gave us. Coming off of an ACL, does anyone seriously expect Watson to contribute much in 2025 -- his contract year? I sure don't.
I asee Wicks as a 5th round pick with poor hands. He also lacks explosiveness.
The only current guy I have much faith in is Jayden Reed and that is purely as a slot receiver.
Comparing the Pack's WR room with those of the NFC teams still left in the playoffs shows GB's talent is not close to its competitors.
Washington (Terry McLaurin)
Detroit (Amon-Ra St. Brown & Jameson Williams)
Philly (AJ Brown & DeVonta Smith)
LA Rams (Puka Nacua & Cooper Kupp)
Minnesota (Justin Jefferson & Jordan Addison)
I expect that if the Packers give Jordan Love some better receivers to throw to his production will increase correspondingly.
Last year people jumped on the bandwagon of my WR opinion because it was working and was fashionable. This year it did not work great and the sheep are retreating from this.
My stance has not changed. Our present model is good, they just need to perform (also I think the WR coach probably should be canned).
Definitely don't think we need a #1 (I don't like the idea of going after Higgins). They are too expensive and there are better ways to allocate funds. But I do see merit in bringing in a veteran. Lots of stories from Nelson/Cobb/Jones/Jennings on how important and influential Donald Driver was for them.
I am in favor of a veteran presence to try and pull Reed and Wicks along.
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 12:05
by Pckfn23
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 11:06
To be clear I think the Preston trade was also a good trade. If we look at the total situation he should have neverbeen resigned in the first place. I was just adding it to the list because it is just one more veteran player on the team that has demanded to be traded. It could be for one reason or another but it does keep happening and the team should be looking into if there is a deeper reason why. Additionally, when they continuosly go into season after season with over $20M in dead cap.
In 2023 the Packers were 3rd highest in dead cap. In 2024 we were 6th highest. We are on track to be 9th this season and we havent even added Alexander to that yet (it would jump into the top 5). At some point this needs to be identified as a trend and it needs to stop. It is hindering the team.
It's "hindering" the team in this small sample size because we tried to go all in with Aaron Rodgers. If you go back to 2022, we were 16th in dead cap and in 2021 we were 29th. So no, we don't go into season after season with a bad dead cap situation. We are now at the tail end of kicking the can for Aaron Rodgers. It's not some trend, yet. See Saints for bad cap management trends.
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 12:20
by BF004
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 12:52
by Scott4Pack
Want to float an idea here.
There are two things that any team needs to do and they are not the same.
1. Maximize the talent and ability on the team.
2. Learn how to win.
All of the NFL teams have a lot of talent. Even the worst team can beat the best if they put it together for 60 minutes. But sometimes it seems like a team that has more measureable talent accomplishes more victories than most team, without learning how to win.
How does a team learn to win? It's about cohesion, planning, motivating each other (not just self). It's about playing to the situations and not just making plays. There are other considerations, but it's more about the dynamic, human, and team things that make a team stick together, work the plan, and increase their desire so that they can perform better than all of the other teams.
In 2024, I do think we had enough talent to overcome most other teams (obviously). But we didn't do nearly well enough to learn how to win. That's gonna be the biggest task in 2025, I think. Yeah, we want to increase our talent level at some positions. But that won't make us divisional champs with a real shot at the Super Bowl.
This is gonna fall much on MLF. He isn't alone. We have a very good organization. But make no mistake, it needs to improve.
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 12:58
by Pugger
lake shark wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 11:08
APB wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 11:01
go pak go wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 10:40
Yup. And frankly now Adams got his money. He got his endorsements but he's losing games. He may have a different thought process going into this new negotiation. I don't think a reunion is dead. I think there is a decent chance both sides could see a world for reunion.
Same.
I don’t necessarily think it’s likely but I wouldn’t categorize the that door as closed, either.
Unfortunately the FA cupboard for WR is pretty bare. You have Tee Higgins, and the a bunch of players who are inconsistent (Amari Cooper), too old (Hopkins), always injured (Hollywood Brown) or head cases (Diggs and D. Johnson) or a product of the system (Lazard) or more than one of these categories. So if Davante is cut you almost have to seriously consider it, put the price will be high in this market.
It
is a bare WR market but how willing will teams be to pay a receiver like Davante is being paid right now by NY on the wrong side of 30?
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 13:00
by Pugger
Labrev wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 11:28
LombardiTime wrote: ↑13 Jan 2025 19:45
That said, I am apparently also an outlier when it comes to how good the wide receivers are.
More specifically, I think Doubs is a physically limited possession receiver with little upside and now a track record of concussions. I also think his quitting on the team during the season is a huge red flag that the team ignores at its peril.
Watson is physically gifted, but after three seasons I have serious doubts about his durability. I also view his on the field play as being not much better than what MVS gave us. Coming off of an ACL, does anyone seriously expect Watson to contribute much in 2025 -- his contract year? I sure don't.
I asee Wicks as a 5th round pick with poor hands. He also lacks explosiveness.
The only current guy I have much faith in is Jayden Reed and that is purely as a slot receiver.
Comparing the Pack's WR room with those of the NFC teams still left in the playoffs shows GB's talent is not close to its competitors.
Washington (Terry McLaurin)
Detroit (Amon-Ra St. Brown & Jameson Williams)
Philly (AJ Brown & DeVonta Smith)
LA Rams (Puka Nacua & Cooper Kupp)
Minnesota (Justin Jefferson & Jordan Addison)
I expect that if the Packers give Jordan Love some better receivers to throw to his production will increase correspondingly.
Last year people jumped on the bandwagon of my WR opinion because it was working and was fashionable. This year it did not work great and the sheep are retreating from this.
My stance has not changed. Our present model is good, they just need to perform (also I think the WR coach probably should be canned).
Do you believe the current crop of WRs presently on our roster is good enough?
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 13:04
by Pugger
Scott4Pack wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 12:52
Want to float an idea here.
There are two things that any team needs to do and they are not the same.
1. Maximize the talent and ability on the team.
2. Learn how to win.
All of the NFL teams have a lot of talent. Even the worst team can beat the best if they put it together for 60 minutes. But sometimes it seems like a team that has more measureable talent accomplishes more victories than most team, without learning how to win.
How does a team learn to win? It's about cohesion, planning, motivating each other (not just self). It's about playing to the situations and not just making plays. There are other considerations, but it's more about the dynamic, human, and team things that make a team stick together, work the plan, and increase their desire so that they can perform better than all of the other teams.
In 2024, I do think we had enough talent to overcome most other teams (obviously). But we didn't do nearly well enough to learn how to win. That's gonna be the biggest task in 2025, I think. Yeah, we want to increase our talent level at some positions. But that won't make us divisional champs with a real shot at the Super Bowl.
This is gonna fall much on MLF. He isn't alone. We have a very good organization. But make no mistake, it needs to improve.
It is also learning not to screw up. Teams that lose commit too many penalties and turn the ball over. This killed us against the better teams this year.
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 16:00
by BF004
Pugger wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 13:00
Labrev wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 11:28
LombardiTime wrote: ↑13 Jan 2025 19:45
That said, I am apparently also an outlier when it comes to how good the wide receivers are.
More specifically, I think Doubs is a physically limited possession receiver with little upside and now a track record of concussions. I also think his quitting on the team during the season is a huge red flag that the team ignores at its peril.
Watson is physically gifted, but after three seasons I have serious doubts about his durability. I also view his on the field play as being not much better than what MVS gave us. Coming off of an ACL, does anyone seriously expect Watson to contribute much in 2025 -- his contract year? I sure don't.
I asee Wicks as a 5th round pick with poor hands. He also lacks explosiveness.
The only current guy I have much faith in is Jayden Reed and that is purely as a slot receiver.
Comparing the Pack's WR room with those of the NFC teams still left in the playoffs shows GB's talent is not close to its competitors.
Washington (Terry McLaurin)
Detroit (Amon-Ra St. Brown & Jameson Williams)
Philly (AJ Brown & DeVonta Smith)
LA Rams (Puka Nacua & Cooper Kupp)
Minnesota (Justin Jefferson & Jordan Addison)
I expect that if the Packers give Jordan Love some better receivers to throw to his production will increase correspondingly.
Last year people jumped on the bandwagon of my WR opinion because it was working and was fashionable. This year it did not work great and the sheep are retreating from this.
My stance has not changed. Our present model is good, they just need to perform (also I think the WR coach probably should be canned).
Do you believe the current crop of WRs presently on our roster is good enough?
When healthy, yah
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 17:00
by texas
Labrev wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 11:28
LombardiTime wrote: ↑13 Jan 2025 19:45
That said, I am apparently also an outlier when it comes to how good the wide receivers are.
More specifically, I think Doubs is a physically limited possession receiver with little upside and now a track record of concussions. I also think his quitting on the team during the season is a huge red flag that the team ignores at its peril.
Watson is physically gifted, but after three seasons I have serious doubts about his durability. I also view his on the field play as being not much better than what MVS gave us. Coming off of an ACL, does anyone seriously expect Watson to contribute much in 2025 -- his contract year? I sure don't.
I asee Wicks as a 5th round pick with poor hands. He also lacks explosiveness.
The only current guy I have much faith in is Jayden Reed and that is purely as a slot receiver.
Comparing the Pack's WR room with those of the NFC teams still left in the playoffs shows GB's talent is not close to its competitors.
Washington (Terry McLaurin)
Detroit (Amon-Ra St. Brown & Jameson Williams)
Philly (AJ Brown & DeVonta Smith)
LA Rams (Puka Nacua & Cooper Kupp)
Minnesota (Justin Jefferson & Jordan Addison)
I expect that if the Packers give Jordan Love some better receivers to throw to his production will increase correspondingly.
Last year people jumped on the bandwagon of my WR opinion because it was working and was fashionable. This year it did not work great and the sheep are retreating from this.
My stance has not changed. Our present model is good, they just need to perform (also I think the WR coach probably should be canned).
I agree fully. I like the 6 #2 WR model better. It's just so much better to have an offense that is scheme-dependent than matchup-dependent. It's better to have a QB who runs the offense and throws to the open guy than a QB who bails out of whatever was called in order to play hero ball.
The problem was that this year we had closer to 6 #3's than 6 #2's. And in reality the #5 and #6 played like #5 and #6 as opposed to last year when they also played like a #2.
Christian Watson brings a lot of stuff off the ball too just by being on the field. Doubs played well. Reed didn't get enough looks. Wicks sucked. Melton and Heath played like guys who will be replaced. We got majorly injured and the bottom guys did not step up.
I wouldn't be opposed to bringing in a FA WR, but I don't want a guy who will be anything more than just a piece in our existing rotation. I do want to draft some WRs though because that position group failed us when it mattered most so something needs to be tweaked.
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 17:17
by lupedafiasco
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 12:05
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 11:06
To be clear I think the Preston trade was also a good trade. If we look at the total situation he should have neverbeen resigned in the first place. I was just adding it to the list because it is just one more veteran player on the team that has demanded to be traded. It could be for one reason or another but it does keep happening and the team should be looking into if there is a deeper reason why. Additionally, when they continuosly go into season after season with over $20M in dead cap.
In 2023 the Packers were 3rd highest in dead cap. In 2024 we were 6th highest. We are on track to be 9th this season and we havent even added Alexander to that yet (it would jump into the top 5). At some point this needs to be identified as a trend and it needs to stop. It is hindering the team.
It's "hindering" the team in this small sample size because we tried to go all in with Aaron Rodgers. If you go back to 2022, we were 16th in dead cap and in 2021 we were 29th. So no, we don't go into season after season with a bad dead cap situation. We are now at the tail end of kicking the can for Aaron Rodgers. It's not some trend, yet. See Saints for bad cap management trends.
3 straight years in the top 10 in dead cap is absolutely a trend. We are also in the territory where we probably want off the Kenny Clark contract as well.
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 17:20
by Pckfn23
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 17:17
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 12:05
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 11:06
To be clear I think the Preston trade was also a good trade. If we look at the total situation he should have neverbeen resigned in the first place. I was just adding it to the list because it is just one more veteran player on the team that has demanded to be traded. It could be for one reason or another but it does keep happening and the team should be looking into if there is a deeper reason why. Additionally, when they continuosly go into season after season with over $20M in dead cap.
In 2023 the Packers were 3rd highest in dead cap. In 2024 we were 6th highest. We are on track to be 9th this season and we havent even added Alexander to that yet (it would jump into the top 5). At some point this needs to be identified as a trend and it needs to stop. It is hindering the team.
It's "hindering" the team in this small sample size because we tried to go all in with Aaron Rodgers. If you go back to 2022, we were 16th in dead cap and in 2021 we were 29th. So no, we don't go into season after season with a bad dead cap situation. We are now at the tail end of kicking the can for Aaron Rodgers. It's not some trend, yet. See Saints for bad cap management trends.
3 straight years in the top 10 in dead cap is absolutely a trend. We are also in the territory where we probably want off the Kenny Clark contract as well.
Explained by pushing the cap back to continue a run with Rodgers, not some neglect of the cap because of signing 3rd contracts.
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 17:25
by go pak go
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 17:17
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 12:05
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 11:06
To be clear I think the Preston trade was also a good trade. If we look at the total situation he should have neverbeen resigned in the first place. I was just adding it to the list because it is just one more veteran player on the team that has demanded to be traded. It could be for one reason or another but it does keep happening and the team should be looking into if there is a deeper reason why. Additionally, when they continuosly go into season after season with over $20M in dead cap.
In 2023 the Packers were 3rd highest in dead cap. In 2024 we were 6th highest. We are on track to be 9th this season and we havent even added Alexander to that yet (it would jump into the top 5). At some point this needs to be identified as a trend and it needs to stop. It is hindering the team.
It's "hindering" the team in this small sample size because we tried to go all in with Aaron Rodgers. If you go back to 2022, we were 16th in dead cap and in 2021 we were 29th. So no, we don't go into season after season with a bad dead cap situation. We are now at the tail end of kicking the can for Aaron Rodgers. It's not some trend, yet. See Saints for bad cap management trends.
3 straight years in the top 10 in dead cap is absolutely a trend. We are also in the territory where we probably want off the Kenny Clark contract as well.
lol.
First Gute failed by not going all in enough in during the 2019 - 2022 window and now he failed for not magically getting rid of the dead cap from going all in during the 2019 - 2022 window.
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 17:42
by lupedafiasco
Gute never went all in. In what world are you going all in when you took an entire draft class of players who were backups for the future?
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 17:46
by lupedafiasco
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 17:20
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 17:17
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 12:05
It's "hindering" the team in this small sample size because we tried to go all in with Aaron Rodgers. If you go back to 2022, we were 16th in dead cap and in 2021 we were 29th. So no, we don't go into season after season with a bad dead cap situation. We are now at the tail end of kicking the can for Aaron Rodgers. It's not some trend, yet. See Saints for bad cap management trends.
3 straight years in the top 10 in dead cap is absolutely a trend. We are also in the territory where we probably want off the Kenny Clark contract as well.
Explained by pushing the cap back to continue a run with Rodgers, not some neglect of the cap because of signing 3rd contracts.
Rodgers was already off the books on this years dead cap. Still top 10. He won’t be on the books next year either… still top 10. Are you dumb stupid or dumb?
Re: Changes to Make
Posted: 14 Jan 2025 18:35
by Pckfn23
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 17:46
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 17:20
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑14 Jan 2025 17:17
3 straight years in the top 10 in dead cap is absolutely a trend. We are also in the territory where we probably want off the Kenny Clark contract as well.
Explained by pushing the cap back to continue a run with Rodgers, not some neglect of the cap because of signing 3rd contracts.
Rodgers was already off the books on this years dead cap. Still top 10. He won’t be on the books next year either… still top 10. Are you dumb stupid or dumb?
Why can you never just have a conversation? Grow up.
There was much more than just Rodgers's contract that was push out to keep the championship window open. Our 4 highest dead cap amounts in 2024 absolutely point that out, Bakhtiari, Jones, Smith, and Campbell. All had money pushed back to accommodate the window. In 2025 it is Smith and Campbell who account for almost all of it. Even next year we are paying for pushing back money on those contracts to try to keep the window open.