We’ve just got to get back to work,” coach Matt LaFleur said Monday after watching film of the opener, “and we’ve got to stay resilient, and we’ve got to stay together. It’s one game, and that’s the beauty of the National Football League. Nobody is going to feel sorry for you, and you better not feel sorry for yourself. You’ve just got to get back to work, and try to hit that reset button, and focus on your upcoming opponent. I mean, you have to have a short memory in this league, both as a player and as a coach.”
At least the way forward is no mystery, and not simply because when it comes to what the Packers can improve from Sunday, the simplest answer is everything
RELAX impossible theres lots of splanning to do. the best way to do that is by treating the Lions like Kittens
I hate how everytime we get our teeth kicked in either Lafleur or Rodgers will be like "Well we just came out with low energy..". Like ya, you had all offseason to be low energy and get energized, lets stop being lazy on sundays please!!
I hate how everytime we get our teeth kicked in either Lafleur or Rodgers will be like "Well we just came out with low energy..". Like ya, you had all offseason to be low energy and get energized, lets stop being lazy on sundays please!!
I didn't hear that from Lafluer though, in fact he used words like embarrassing, poor effort, humiliating, Rodgers also was in a squat position with his tail between his legs, imho both new they came out poorly prepared and expected a cake walk.
we'll see what happens this Sunday, but I'am thinking this ass kicking will produce positive results, we need a chip on our shoulders, we usually play well against adversity, at least on offense, defense, as Leroy Butler said is a work in progress, but again we played like a team worried about making mistakes, when ya do that your doing to much thinking, and as a result you play slower, at least thats how it looked to me.
I will re-iterate one of the rare good takes made on FF's message board (paraphrased greatly): it is more productive to talk about players as having their given strengths and weaknesses than simply boil it down to them being good or just suck.
Ok, Kevin King's strengths are nothing, and his weaknesses are everything
Well, yeah. Let it not be said that there are not players who do, in fact, just "suck" and flat-out do not belong in the league. In that case, no problem with just saying "he sucks."
But that's the exception, not the rule. I was thinking of guys more like Tonyan who was a project UDFA, or a guy like Adams whose early struggles did not negate the fact that he was also legit talented.
Or even a guy like Allen Lazard who some folks here are not fond of due to his limitations as a player (e.g. can't seperate well), but this is a guy who does a few things really well (assignment-sure, physical, good blocker), a few of which kind of negate some of the issues with him (sure, he can't seperate like Adams/MVS/Cobb; that's not his game -- he's a big-bodied possession receiver who can be "open" when he's covered) and gives you that dirt-cheap -- there's value in those guys, too.
Re: Packers @ Saints GDT - 9/12/2021 3:25 CST
Posted: 16 Sep 2021 06:46
by Yoop
There’s a blueprint for stopping Aaron Rodgers, and the Packers should be concerned
You may find it unfathomable that a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer would be so betwixt and between with two-safety looks, but again, every quarterback has his Kryptonite. It also tells us that when teams are able to at least limit the damage Adams can do to coverage by bracketing him, Green Bay’s second- and third-level receivers aren’t quite up to the challenge. That’s been a burr in Rodgers’ side for a while now. Based on the numbers and tape, he might have a valid point.
look at the comparison to Mahomes and the Chiefs
Mahomes is absolutely lethal against two-high coverage -- last season, he completed 164 of 251 attempts for 2,057 yards, 1,273 air yards, a league-high 12 touchdowns, three interceptions, and a league-high passer rating of 131.6, the Chiefs can put Travis Kelce on one side of the field and Tyreek Hill on the other, and all you can do with split safeties at that point is to wish them bon voyage. Fourth, Mahomes' specific mobility outside the pocket breaks deep-third coverage in multiple ways. Rodgers, who isn't as mobile as Mahomes (though he's incredibly effective when rolling out of pressure), and doesn't have a Travis Kelce to pair with Davante Adams, needs to rely on a strong, consistent running game to keep teams out of two-high. That didn't happen against the Saints this time around because by the half, the Packers were already down 17-3
I brought this last part, because it wraps up our situation, we have to figure out how to over come this or it will be a long season.
The combination of more advanced two-deep coverage with mathematical run fits out of light boxes would seem to hit the Packers harder than most teams from a schematic and philosophical standpoint. That's not to say that the Packers and their all-time quarterback can't get past this, but the struggle is real, and it may be that way for a while. "We've got to go back to the drawing board a little bit and figure out, because this'll be -- I don't know if everybody's gonna do this, and coordinators like to run their stuff -- but this'll be the old blueprint starting the season on the Packers," Rodgers said after the game. Whether he said that with tongue in cheek or not, Rodgers is smart enough to know which way the wind blows, and LaFleur shouldn't need a weatherman for that.
theoretically, the answer to forcing a defense out of two high is a very simple one. Run the dang ball until they have to get out of it. If they never get out of it, just keep running. Dillon could have busted them out of it or punished them for being in it. He was already doing it until he got abandoned. Lafleur or Rodgers or both just needs patience.
theoretically, the answer to forcing a defense out of two high is a very simple one. Run the dang ball until they have to get out of it. If they never get out of it, just keep running. Dillon could have busted them out of it or punished them for being in it. He was already doing it until he got abandoned. Lafleur or Rodgers or both just needs patience.
actually the article explains why Fangios 50 front defense makes it harder to zone run, you should take the time to read the article when ya have a chance J
It looked like that would have worked Sunday, but we didn't do it so who knows, point is though that NO didn't use a lot of 50 front, they may have shifted to that had we attempted more running, and as the article says the 50 front is designed to weaken a zone blocking scheme, so it's something to consider.
the part that stands out to me and what I've gripped about for years, is the part about KC and Mahomes, when you have two WR's like Adams that can often beat a double coverage then it tends to eliminate the advantage of a two high safety scheme, and a defense then will have to drop a lber which opens up the short game more, easier to complete short passes because those zones are empty, we couldn't accomplish that Sunday, maybe running more would have done it, but we'll never know now.
Re: Packers @ Saints GDT - 9/12/2021 3:25 CST
Posted: 16 Sep 2021 08:07
by Pckfn23
the Chiefs can put Travis Kelce on one side of the field and Tyreek Hill on the other, and all you can do with split safeties at that point is to wish them bon voyage.
I think we could do it. Put MVS opposite Adams as well and we could have something. It takes the scheme and the "patience" to do it. Not trying to force the ball downfield. And of course, run the ball.
It's really the formula to beat any good QB. Play 2 high over man and get pressure.
theoretically, the answer to forcing a defense out of two high is a very simple one. Run the dang ball until they have to get out of it. If they never get out of it, just keep running. Dillon could have busted them out of it or punished them for being in it. He was already doing it until he got abandoned. Lafleur or Rodgers or both just needs patience.
Its on LaFleur and Rodgers that they abandoned the run for sure but Rodgers is the one on the field with the ability to "can" plays depending on what the defense gives him. I believe he took a look at how bad the defense was playing and tried to play hero ball and with this group of receivers its just not possible.
Re: Packers @ Saints GDT - 9/12/2021 3:25 CST
Posted: 16 Sep 2021 08:16
by go pak go
This forum is obsessed with having every guy on the team be able to "beat a double team" whether it is on offense or defense.
It especially is funny when people keep saying, "Clark was triple teamed even!" If that's the case, you are guaranteed to have a guy wide open to the QB because at that point it is 7 (3 taking on Clark + QB) offensive players vs 10 defensive players. Like we are gonna win that play if that happens.
The receiving group we have is fine. What isn't fine is the mentality that MLF and Rodgers have when they get tight and start to sense a shootout. They are terrible at it. They did a good job vs Detroit on MNF in 2019 but that too wasn't really a shootout as our defense kept the game close.
I have a hard time blaming MLF for not running the ball because I believe we only ran 12 offensive plays before our 1:07 drive left before half. So yes that is a bit more challenging to get the run going.
What I will blame is the routes were bad. The one play to MVS in particular where Lazard was like 5 yards away (and this was 20 yards down the field)....what the hell? You just allowed the defense to easily cover two guys because they are literally right by each other. Where is the spacing?
The other issue is Rodgers does not have patience when down. He panics and we see this all time. It's okay to go to your checkdown and it's even more important to go to your checkdown early when the spacing is there for YAC.
You don't need WRs who can break double coverage deep when playing 2 high safety. You just need to put the ball where the two high safety is not and also be able to pound the ball until you force a safety down which you then make them pay for it by going over top.
A classic game where Rodgers and MLF were super successful at beating the 2-high Safety look was vs LA Rams in last year's playoffs. We pounded the ball. We took the underneath stuff and played within the offense and then BAM. 3rd Quarter comes and Rodgers hits them over the top destroying the game.
Re: Packers @ Saints GDT - 9/12/2021 3:25 CST
Posted: 16 Sep 2021 08:22
by TheSkeptic
If anyone is interested in watching it again, the full game is on YouTube.
I only watched when Love was the QB.
Re: Packers @ Saints GDT - 9/12/2021 3:25 CST
Posted: 16 Sep 2021 08:30
by go pak go
Saying that Rodgers "sensed" the defense playing poorly and that's why he went into big play mood too is a poor excuse and honestly Rodgers needs to learn from. The Saints ultimately had like 150 yards passing. This game was always a possession away of being in it if the Packers wanted to.
IT was just really bad play by Rodgers, Tonyan and Aaron Jones. We can look at this game at a specific level again because in the first half, we had 3 drives (one of them being with 1:07 left in the half)
1st drive - Jones gets the ball twice and gets 0 yards. Robert Tonyan drops a ball. Packers have to punt after being forced into 3rd and 9. (7 total plays)
2nd drive - AJ Dillon gets the ball twice in a row and gets 6 yards each time. Rodgers gets a bootleg and panics with Davenport in his face and takes the most ridiculous 11 yard sack when all he needed to was throw it away and we are now in 2nd and 21 (5 total plays)
3rd drive - Gets the miracle ball to Adams
4th drive - Things are moving though Rodgers is still throwing a lot of incomplete. We get a few first downs aided by Saints penalties. 2nd down inside the 10 and Rodgers throws a pick.
By that point the game was over.
The mistake the Packers likely made was not running it twice in a row after it giving the ball to Jones on 1st down and him only picking up 3 or less yards. Maybe we should have run it more on 2nd down to set up a 3rd and 4 or less.
Re: Packers @ Saints GDT - 9/12/2021 3:25 CST
Posted: 16 Sep 2021 08:31
by go pak go
What I notice is when defenses play with 2 high safety and either the Dline or MLB's effectively take away Aaron Jones, this Packers offense is toast.
The Packers need to have an answer when both Rodgers and especially Jones are stunted. I believe we have that answer, but it will take time for the offense to get in the groove and figure that out. Hopefully they arrive at the answer in 2021.
But when you look at nearly every loss in the MLF era, it is because Aaron Jones had a bad game.
Just look at his rushing production in our losses in that time.
2019 -
Philly - 21 yards
LAC - 30 yards
SF - 38 yards
SF - 56 yards
2020 -
Tampa - 15 yards
MN - didn't play
IND - 41 yards
Tampa - 27 yards
What I will blame is the routes were bad. The one play to MVS in particular where Lazard was like 5 yards away (and this was 20 yards down the field)....what the hell? You just allowed the defense to easily cover two guys because they are literally right by each other. Where is the spacing?
I doubt that was the design, looked like the typical 9 go for MVS, and I think Lazard was suppose to break inside to freeze the safety, are you talking about the pick play over throw to Lazard???
OC's rarely use routes where receivers stay that close deep, we see a bunch of routes that start that way, but rarely finish like that, so imo thats a busted play
we don't have two receivers capable of beating doubles, hell we don't have enough receivers that beat single coverage consistently enough, that article showed what happened last year the 4 times teams used a variation of the Fangio/Staley scheme to shut down Rodgers and our offense and succeeded.
What I will blame is the routes were bad. The one play to MVS in particular where Lazard was like 5 yards away (and this was 20 yards down the field)....what the hell? You just allowed the defense to easily cover two guys because they are literally right by each other. Where is the spacing?
I doubt that was the design, looked like the typical 9 go for MVS, and I think Lazard was suppose to break inside to freeze the safety, are you talking about the pick play over throw to Lazard???
No it wasn't the pick play. It was a ball to the right sideline I believe on the first drive in the 2nd half. I too think it was likely a player mistake.
Re: Packers @ Saints GDT - 9/12/2021 3:25 CST
Posted: 16 Sep 2021 08:53
by Pckfn23
So first play. We go tight bunch trips to the right. This essentially brings the defense in too and we run into an 8 man box... Like WTF is that...
Go 11 personnel on play 2. Split Lewis out wide. They have a 6 man box. Hitch to Adams for 4. Lewis is lined up next to him and runs a go like he is going to run the outside corner off, but who would respect Lewis' long speed? Easy rally and tackle for the 2 corners... Like WTF is that...
3rd and 7, 11 personnel again, all split wide. Jones to the left wide. Runs a crosser at 1 yard. He gets the first if Rodgers hits him earlier. By the time he catches and turns up field he only has 3-4 yards to work with before running OB. Fine play design there, poor execution.
Story of the afternoon right there, 2 poorly designed plays, 1 poorly executed.
the Chiefs can put Travis Kelce on one side of the field and Tyreek Hill on the other, and all you can do with split safeties at that point is to wish them bon voyage.
I think we could do it. Put MVS opposite Adams as well and we could have something. It takes the scheme and the "patience" to do it. Not trying to force the ball downfield. And of course, run the ball.
It's really the formula to beat any good QB. Play 2 high over man and get pressure.
thing is MVS is not even close to the player that Kelce is though, not near as athletic, unless MVS gets the jump on a DB his route running doesn't get him separation, Kelce even though much slower is a great route runner and catchs almost everything thrown his way.
I think we have some short area receivers that with some mis direction can get yac yards enough to move the chains, add in some run success, and that also will force defenses to drop a safety, we didn't do hardly any of that Sunday.
I think both Rodgers and Lafluer seemed confused with the defense that NO used.
we don't have two receivers capable of beating doubles
And I don't understand why we need to. Beating double coverage (especially having 2 players do it) is a pretty ridiculous and unnecessary ask.
If you have 2 players being "doubled", that means 4 players in the 2ndary are being used on 2 wideouts. If the defense is rushing even just 4 players, that means only 3 more defensive guys are free to cover the remaining the Packers and one of them is likely a LB that is matched vs Aaron Jones or Tonyan and your final receiver is faced up single coverage.
I mean come on. Our offense should find a way to beat that as long as the QB is okay with throwing the ball in the middle of the field. And that is where our issues lie. Rodgers hates doing that. And his INT in the middle of the field week 1 may make him thing twice even more about doing that moving forward.
3rd and 7, 11 personnel again, all split wide. Jones to the left wide. Runs a crosser at 1 yard. He gets the first if Rodgers hits him earlier. By the time he catches and turns up field he only has 3-4 yards to work with before running OB. Fine play design there, poor execution.
OK blame Rodgers for that but we both know that he was looking for Adams to clear deeper and just waited a tad to long, but agree thats on Rodgers for not just taking what was available.
again we didn't do anything we know we are capable of, almost no PA, or mis direction, motion, we used a small play book, very vanilla.
McCarthy often did the same thing to start the seasons.
Re: Packers @ Saints GDT - 9/12/2021 3:25 CST
Posted: 16 Sep 2021 09:06
by Pckfn23
Just FYI those measurables I posted are Tonyan and Kelce.
MVS had a decent game on Sunday, by most accounts.
This is going to be controversial, but I will say it. The Packers 2021 offensive weapons (RB, WR, TE) are equal to the Chiefs offensive weapons.
impossible 
theres lots of splanning to do. 
the best way to do that is by treating the Lions like Kittens