Packers Huddle

Drj820 wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 09:17

Rodgers is going down as All Time Great, of course....4 MVPs will put him there instantly. But to be on that Mt Rushmore, that top 4 that everyone will forever talk about...you usually dont see one ring guys in that convo. Fair or Foul, thats just how it goes. Many considered Dan Marino great...yet anytime an all time list comes up he isnt near the top and its basically all because there is no hardware on his finger.

Rodgers does have the one, so that instantly makes him eligible for the conversation. But I think the 2nd ring would really unlock the door to conversations about All Time Mount Rushmore, top 4 QBs ever, above all but maybe Brady just because 6 rings is hard to refute.

I hope he gets it. For his sake and for ours. I hope he gets it this year.

I don't know what lists you saw but Google top 10 QBs of all time and you will find Marino in almost every list.

Yeah I just don't like comparing QBs of different eras. They aren't comparable at all.

I think there are largely 3 eras of QBs to judge.

The 1950's to 1970's: Starr, Unitas, Tarkenton
The 1980's to mid 2000's: Favre, Elway, Marino, Montana (Young didn't make the list only because of lack of length in years)
The 2000's to 2020's: Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Brees

That's kind of how I view QBs. The game was just too different in each era to judge or compare against others.

Aw c'mon @go pack go! Stop letting those pesky facts get in the way of endless speculation.

Now, who was better, Bennie Friedman or Drew Brees? Go!

Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 12:47

Aw c'mon @go pack go! Stop letting those pesky facts get in the way of endless speculation.

Now, who was better, Bennie Friedman or Drew Brees? Go!

Considering I had to look up the name "Benny Freidman"

go pak go wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 09:45

Yeah I just don't like comparing QBs of different eras. They aren't comparable at all.

I think there are largely 3 eras of QBs to judge.

The 1950's to 1970's: Starr, Unitas, Tarkenton
The 1980's to mid 2000's: Favre, Elway, Marino, Montana (Young didn't make the list only because of lack of length in years)
The 2000's to 2020's: Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Brees

That's kind of how I view QBs. The game was just too different in each era to judge or compare against others.

I am 100% on board with this.

The next question is whether the generation and rules including Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, Joe Burrow? Lamar Jackson? Kyler Murray? will lump in with the one above it (Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers) or form its own, incomparable era of QB play. All of it is too premature to know who goes in that pantheon, but it will be interesting to watch--and also to see if rushing stats become more prominently displayed for QBs

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 13:06

go pak go wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 09:45

Yeah I just don't like comparing QBs of different eras. They aren't comparable at all.

I think there are largely 3 eras of QBs to judge.

The 1950's to 1970's: Starr, Unitas, Tarkenton
The 1980's to mid 2000's: Favre, Elway, Marino, Montana (Young didn't make the list only because of lack of length in years)
The 2000's to 2020's: Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Brees

That's kind of how I view QBs. The game was just too different in each era to judge or compare against others.

I am 100% on board with this.

The next question is whether the generation and rules including Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, Joe Burrow? Lamar Jackson? Kyler Murray? will lump in with the one above it (Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers) or form its own, incomparable era of QB play. All of it is too premature to know who goes in that pantheon, but it will be interesting to watch--and also to see if rushing stats become more prominently displayed for QBs

My current lean is the 2020's will be the same as 2010 and beyond. I think the rules are largely the same.

But yes I agree about rushing stats. Though we saw this too in the early/mid 2010's with Newton/Kaep/Wilson..."has the QB position changed?" and we ultimately saw that the pocket passers who were more consistent in accuracy outlasted the "pistol, wildcat, running QBs"

I suspect that trend will ultimately continue. Eventually systems, rhythm, timing, accuracy always outlast the speed boys with more inconsistent ball placement.

That's my theory at least.

And FWIW, I think the pure and consistent numbers that Peyton Manning and even Drew Brees put up in the early to mid 2000's is absolutely insane.

What you propose is rational. But there will always be a GOAT discussion that discusses the topic throughout the history of the league. Fair or Foul. Many debate this in terms of the "Mt Rushmore" of the position, meaning the top 4 of all time. Brady is a lock for a spot. I think a 2nd SB puts Rodgers as a lock for top 4 spot too.

I understand reason breaks the talk down into eras, but the talking heads will always have the age old fun discussion.

I think you can draw a line around 2008 or 2009. This is when the INT rate for QBs really started to fall. Before that, it would fairly steady between early 90s and 2008/2009.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/10/02/nfl-i ... te-decline

It would be interesting to see what QB rushing yardage trends are looking like.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 13:25

I think you can draw a line around 2008 or 2009. This is when the INT rate for QBs really started to fall. Before that, it would fairly steady between early 90s and 2008/2009.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/10/02/nfl-i ... te-decline

It would be interesting to see what QB rushing yardage trends are looking like.

Yup I think you are right by that.

2008 was the first year in the SB era where the NFL averaged more than 22 points per team per game. This dropped to around 21.5 in 2009 but then in 2010 was back above 22 points per game and never fell below this mark again for the exception of 1 season (2017) which was the year where basically all the good QBs got hurt.

So I think it's safe to say the rules adjustments in that 2008 - 2010 time frame was geared for more scoring and better production from the offense and passing game.

go pak go wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 13:34

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 13:25

I think you can draw a line around 2008 or 2009. This is when the INT rate for QBs really started to fall. Before that, it would fairly steady between early 90s and 2008/2009.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/10/02/nfl-i ... te-decline

It would be interesting to see what QB rushing yardage trends are looking like.

Yup I think you are right by that.

2008 was the first year in the SB era where the NFL averaged more than 22 points per team per game. This dropped to around 21.5 in 2009 but then in 2010 was back above 22 points per game and never fell below this mark again for the exception of 1 season (2017) which was the year where basically all the good QBs got hurt.

So I think it's safe to say the rules adjustments in that 2008 - 2010 time frame was geared for more scoring and better production from the offense and passing game.

I would love to see this updated with the past few seasons. I contend 2011 marked a new era with that CBA, but any of these reasons are obviously going to compound, so hard to say it's just one thing. I do think there might be another marked sharp decline that we are in the midst of right now.

some never where able to play in the SB or even PO games, yet where voted into HOF, like Dan Fouts who did very well in the Don Coryell air shows, the innovator of the spread vertical offensive schemes still very popular today

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/the- ... -chargers/

I loved watching Archie Manning play, great arm, great legs, never got the accolades because his team sucked, it's a shame that a QB has to play on a great team to get recognition.

In 1972 he led the league in pass attempts and completions and led the National Football Conference in passing yards, though the team's record was only 2–11–1.

https://americanfootball.fandom.com/wiki/Archie_Manning

NCF wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 13:40

go pak go wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 13:34

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 13:25

I think you can draw a line around 2008 or 2009. This is when the INT rate for QBs really started to fall. Before that, it would fairly steady between early 90s and 2008/2009.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/10/02/nfl-i ... te-decline

It would be interesting to see what QB rushing yardage trends are looking like.

Yup I think you are right by that.

2008 was the first year in the SB era where the NFL averaged more than 22 points per team per game. This dropped to around 21.5 in 2009 but then in 2010 was back above 22 points per game and never fell below this mark again for the exception of 1 season (2017) which was the year where basically all the good QBs got hurt.

So I think it's safe to say the rules adjustments in that 2008 - 2010 time frame was geared for more scoring and better production from the offense and passing game.

I would love to see this updated with the past few seasons. I contend 2011 marked a new era with that CBA, but any of these reasons are obviously going to compound, so hard to say it's just one thing. I do think there might be another marked sharp decline that we are in the midst of right now.

2020 was the highest scoring season in NFL history. 2021 is definitely lower than last year, but I don't know where it is currently tracking.

go pak go wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 09:45

Yeah I just don't like comparing QBs of different eras. They aren't comparable at all.

I think there are largely 3 eras of QBs to judge.

The 1950's to 1970's: Starr, Unitas, Tarkenton
The 1980's to mid 2000's: Favre, Elway, Marino, Montana (Young didn't make the list only because of lack of length in years)
The 2000's to 2020's: Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Brees

That's kind of how I view QBs. The game was just too different in each era to judge or compare against others.

I have a feeling Marino would have thrived if he was in his prime today.

Pugger wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 14:08

go pak go wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 09:45

Yeah I just don't like comparing QBs of different eras. They aren't comparable at all.

I think there are largely 3 eras of QBs to judge.

The 1950's to 1970's: Starr, Unitas, Tarkenton
The 1980's to mid 2000's: Favre, Elway, Marino, Montana (Young didn't make the list only because of lack of length in years)
The 2000's to 2020's: Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Brees

That's kind of how I view QBs. The game was just too different in each era to judge or compare against others.

I have a feeling Marino would have thrived if he was in his prime today.

He thrived in his prime then too.

What's really interesting to me is how successful Rodgers has been, on teams known for throwing more than running, and still has NEVER had the sort of pure volume stats that Brees and Manning always put up and that Brady is putting up in Tampa.

Like look at their careers sorted by attempts per season. Rodgers just isn't throwing it as much as them

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 14:27

What's really interesting to me is how successful Rodgers has been, on teams known for throwing more than running, and still has NEVER had the sort of pure volume stats that Brees and Manning always put up and that Brady is putting up in Tampa.

Like look at their careers sorted by attempts per season. Rodgers just isn't throwing it as much as them
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Wow, look at the bottom of Rodgers' list. 4 MVP's, a SB Title, and two injury shortened-seasons. Kind of an amazing find, there, YoHo.

If Rodgers wins another one, Brees easily becomes expendable if Mahomes balls out for an extended period or if another QB in this current era asserts himself.

go pak go wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 09:45

Yeah I just don't like comparing QBs of different eras. They aren't comparable at all.

I think there are largely 3 eras of QBs to judge.

The 1950's to 1970's: Starr, Unitas, Tarkenton
The 1980's to mid 2000's: Favre, Elway, Marino, Montana (Young didn't make the list only because of lack of length in years)
The 2000's to 2020's: Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Brees

That's kind of how I view QBs. The game was just too different in each era to judge or compare against others.

That's a great list. But as far as GOAT and the "Mt Rushmore" list, I have to say that perception goes into that as well.

Take Elway as an example. Nobody could really scrutinize his record. He had an amazing career. Yet the early years were filled with the Super Bowls that he did NOT win. Even with "the Drive" against the Browns and so many other escapades of greatness, the conversation about his always had the "yes, but..." part. He couldn't be the GOAT because he didn't have the hardware. All of that perception changed at the end of his career when the Broncos finally broke through, not once but twice. Now he's in the GOAT conversation but in a different way. "Yeah, Elway was amazing, just not amazing like Rodgers or Brady."

I'm not trying to persuade that Elway was the GOAT. That isn't my point. The point is that we can consider all the others and what makes them similar or different and still not have the same answer.

I personally think that Rodgers is probably the best passer of the football ever. And I think he knows how to read and anticipate a defense like nobody else not named Brady. But is he the GOAT? I'm not sure. Part of that picture is that Rodgers doesn't seem to inspire his teammates to greatness enough. (Brady certainly does.) That could still change in his last years. But it isn't yet. Show me Rodgers with more than one ring and I'll think about him as GOAT.

(BTW, here's something to think about. With the teams that he had, Donovan McNabb SHOULD have had more success. He had a great career too. But he couldn't push his team over the top. Maybe Marino is at the same spot too. Maybe others. But the GOAT needs to have a record of pushed his team to greater levels of play.)

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 14:40

If Rodgers wins another one, Brees easily becomes expendable if Mahomes balls out for an extended period or if another QB in this current era asserts himself.

Yeah and I just don't expect this to happen.

I am not a Mahommes guy. I don't see him being any better than a Russel Wilson (still very, very good mind you). Once his cap hit gets larger and larger and that division catches up, I see him becoming more and more "normal and irrelevant"

Watching him play reminds me of the 2014 - 2018 Aaron Rodgers. It's brilliant when there is talent around to make it work, but the lack of rhythm and timing will catch up.

go pak go wrote: ↑

05 Jan 2022 08:23

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2022 14:40

If Rodgers wins another one, Brees easily becomes expendable if Mahomes balls out for an extended period or if another QB in this current era asserts himself.

Yeah and I just don't expect this to happen.

I am not a Mahommes guy. I don't see him being any better than a Russel Wilson (still very, very good mind you). Once his cap hit gets larger and larger and that division catches up, I see him becoming more and more "normal and irrelevant"

Watching him play reminds me of the 2014 - 2018 Aaron Rodgers. It's brilliant when there is talent around to make it work, but the lack of rhythm and timing will catch up.

I do think he'll learn to evolve his game. Good head on his shoulders and I do think he'll be one of the all time greats when all is said and done. But....I do think he has a lot to clean up and has developed some bad habits over his first few years.