Packers Huddle

Something I’ve been saying for a while about Quay. I hadn’t thought about the comparison to savage but it does track. Super athletic players but not very smart in the field and a total lack of physicality.

I don't think Quay is overrated. You usually have to do something first to get fans excited about to overrate you.

Quay hasn't done anything substantial to have him overrated beyond being a first round pick.

I normally like our draft philosophy, namely to go for guys with top athletic measurables, and while I did not like the Walker pick initially, I was happy we were finally taking the LB position seriously (if at a weird time).

But I have always felt LB is one of the few positions where you should relax athletic requirements and put more emphasis on IQ/instinct. If you don't get it by college, you probably never will. Same with RB, you either have vision or you don't; it's generally not a learned skill (and LBs are just the RBs of the D).

I was glad they finally gave LB premium pick attention; the problem is we approached it like we do every other position, because we are not used to developing good LBs, so we don't have the right approach to it. The approach the org favors works for a prospect like Gary, but not at LB.

I will say I did think Quay had looked quite a bit better this season before he got hurt than last, but last Sunday was rough.

I feel like Gute has done a good job overall in Round 1, but our 2022 first-rounders are not looking good.

Wyatt is actually playing good 'ball, it's just not (yet) good/impactful enough production for a first-rounder.

I didn't really do much homework on 2022 prospects, but if we wanted LB, wasn't Devin Lloyd the guy to get?

I refuse to pass judgment on any of these young defensive players until we get a real DC. You hire a DC who was bad in his 2 previous stints and you expect him to suddenly be a great DC? Walker has had some really good games this year and now he has a bad game along with about 10 other defenders and he sucks. The only common thread with Joe Barry players is that they remain inconsistent. One week they're world beaters and the next week they're constantly out of position.

I have said it before but that KC game 2 years ago with Jerry Gray calling the defense was a sample of what could be with a DC that has an aggressive mindset. To me that is the difference and why the players remain inconsistent.

Quay had 7 PD's last season, and looked better in run support then this season, and this year only has 3 PD's.

seems high razz scores dominates our draft boards, some just don't pan out, and some of it could be coaching.

packman114 wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 10:32

I refuse to pass judgment on any of these young defensive players until we get a real DC. You hire a DC who was bad in his 2 previous stints and you expect him to suddenly be a great DC? Walker has had some really good games this year and now he has a bad game along with about 10 other defenders and he sucks. The only common thread with Joe Barry players is that they remain inconsistent. One week they're world beaters and the next week they're constantly out of position.

I have said it before but that KC game 2 years ago with Jerry Gray calling the defense was a sample of what could be with a DC that has an aggressive mindset. To me that is the difference and why the players remain inconsistent.

I agree that there is no way to judge him yet. I don't believe he has been used to take the best advantage of his talents. Right now, his injuries are limiting him quite a bit. I think with his speed he needs to be covering TEs and he should be rushing the passer more often. I think if given time and better coaching he will be just fine.

Two years in Qiay lacks physicality. He doesn’t take on or she’d blocks well. He doesn’t seem to like rallying to the ball as a tackler either.

Those are effort issues. On top of him really not being a smart player either. We saw issues with him shoving trainers last year twice. We are seeing him this year not even recognizing offensive formations and where to be.

packman114 wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 10:32

I refuse to pass judgment on any of these young defensive players until we get a real DC. You hire a DC who was bad in his 2 previous stints and you expect him to suddenly be a great DC? Walker has had some really good games this year and now he has a bad game along with about 10 other defenders and he sucks. The only common thread with Joe Barry players is that they remain inconsistent. One week they're world beaters and the next week they're constantly out of position.

I have said it before but that KC game 2 years ago with Jerry Gray calling the defense was a sample of what could be with a DC that has an aggressive mindset. To me that is the difference and why the players remain inconsistent.

Yeah, agree.

I see Quay's biggest problem as not playing with confidence with the mental aspect of the game. Whether it's coaching or his lack of understanding is yet to be determined. He's thinking too much rather than just playing. That could be Quay or Barry at this point.

I do think he's better as the second ILB, not being asked to call plays and make the necessary defensive adjustments. He's struggling with his own reads and reactions and doesn't need that added responsibility, at least not yet.

I won't pass judgment on him at this point but will admit I expected more from him at this point in his career. Whether he's overrated depends on how enthusiastic you were about his growth coming into this season. It's fair to say he's underperforming but overrated? I don't know if he was rated that high to begin with.

packman114 wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 10:32

I refuse to pass judgment on any of these young defensive players until we get a real DC.

We've been saying the very same thing for a decade now.

Is it the chicken (overrated talent) or the egg (poor coaching/scheme)?

We all know the coaching/scheme under Barry sucks, but Savage, Stokes (maybe injury-related), Walker, and Wyatt have not exactly flashed 1st round talent very often either.

A complete, organizational overhaul has been needed on defense since at least 2016.

But I would bet we are going to just hire another "experienced" Coordinator and draft another CB in round 1 in four months, because that is what the Packers do.

APB wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 11:47

packman114 wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 10:32

I refuse to pass judgment on any of these young defensive players until we get a real DC. You hire a DC who was bad in his 2 previous stints and you expect him to suddenly be a great DC? Walker has had some really good games this year and now he has a bad game along with about 10 other defenders and he sucks. The only common thread with Joe Barry players is that they remain inconsistent. One week they're world beaters and the next week they're constantly out of position.

I have said it before but that KC game 2 years ago with Jerry Gray calling the defense was a sample of what could be with a DC that has an aggressive mindset. To me that is the difference and why the players remain inconsistent.

Yeah, agree.

I see Quay's biggest problem as not playing with confidence with the mental aspect of the game. Whether it's coaching or his lack of understanding is yet to be determined. He's thinking too much rather than just playing. That could be Quay or Barry at this point.

I do think he's better as the second ILB, not being asked to call plays and make the necessary defensive adjustments. He's struggling with his own reads and reactions and doesn't need that added responsibility, at least not yet.

I won't pass judgment on him at this point but will admit I expected more from him at this point in his career. Whether he's overrated depends on how enthusiastic you were about his growth coming into this season. It's fair to say he's underperforming but overrated? I don't know if he was rated that high to begin with.

name a player, just asking, ( other then late round or UDFA) that have improved during Barry's tenure, the only player I can think of is Rasul Douglas, and imho it had more to do with Jerry Gray then Joe Barry, Clark was already a established bull dog, Gary had no where to go but up, Slaton, OK, but even that has to do with his position coach, Savage threw a temper tantrum had to be reprimanded.

my point is we don't see improvement from year to next as we should from some of these high picks, again there picked high for two reasons, they've established that they have talent, and that talent is close to ready for this level of play, some positions are a easier transition then others, and they often start and played as rookies, CB, WR, RB, as long as the gray matter is intact, typically they can do fine, interior players specially spacers (ILB safety's NCB ) have a lot of mental stuff to grasp, those are the guys that screw up the most in zone play, a great example of that happened with Walker and Nixon Sunday.
just my opinions

LombardiTime wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 12:27

packman114 wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 10:32

I refuse to pass judgment on any of these young defensive players until we get a real DC.

We've been saying the very same thing for a decade now.

Is it the chicken (overrated talent) or the egg (poor coaching/scheme)?

We all know the coaching/scheme under Barry sucks, but Savage, Stokes (maybe injury-related), Walker, and Wyatt have not exactly flashed 1st round talent very often either.

A complete, organizational overhaul has been needed on defense since at least 2016.

But I would bet we are going to just hire another "experienced" Coordinator and draft another CB in round 1 in four months, because that is what the Packers do.

Thank you!

I have said over an over I do not like Barry and it was a &%$@ hire from the start. That being said this is Capers all over again. For whatever reason we had a large group of fans talking about how we have all these first round picks on defense… Datone Jones, Dumbarious, Nick Perry, blah blah $%@# blah… and how the defense should be performing better given the talent they had.

It doesn’t matter if they’re first round picks and playing like they should have been drafted in the 4th round. We’ve just gotta kill the first scapegoat which is Barry to get to the real problem, Gutenbumst. But Barry should have never been hired in the first place so I’m good with him still getting the boot.

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 13:01

LombardiTime wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 12:27

packman114 wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 10:32

I refuse to pass judgment on any of these young defensive players until we get a real DC.

We've been saying the very same thing for a decade now.

Is it the chicken (overrated talent) or the egg (poor coaching/scheme)?

We all know the coaching/scheme under Barry sucks, but Savage, Stokes (maybe injury-related), Walker, and Wyatt have not exactly flashed 1st round talent very often either.

A complete, organizational overhaul has been needed on defense since at least 2016.

But I would bet we are going to just hire another "experienced" Coordinator and draft another CB in round 1 in four months, because that is what the Packers do.

Thank you!

I have said over an over I do not like Barry and it was a &%$@ hire from the start. That being said this is Capers all over again. For whatever reason we had a large group of fans talking about how we have all these first round picks on defense… Datone Jones, Dumbarious, Nick Perry, blah blah $%@# blah… and how the defense should be performing better given the talent they had.

It doesn’t matter if they’re first round picks and playing like they should have been drafted in the 4th round. We’ve just gotta kill the first scapegoat which is Barry to get to the real problem, Gutenbumst. But Barry should have never been hired in the first place so I’m good with him still getting the boot.

ya know of course that Matt Lafleur comes here to find out what do after reading your comments, right? so where all holding you accountable for his decision to retain Barry

you make a great point why would Gute draft a guy for the job of setting up the defense each play that doesn't have the IQ for the job, slot 22 for that matter.

If in fact that is the case.

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 13:01

LombardiTime wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 12:27

packman114 wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 10:32

I refuse to pass judgment on any of these young defensive players until we get a real DC.

We've been saying the very same thing for a decade now.

Is it the chicken (overrated talent) or the egg (poor coaching/scheme)?

We all know the coaching/scheme under Barry sucks, but Savage, Stokes (maybe injury-related), Walker, and Wyatt have not exactly flashed 1st round talent very often either.

A complete, organizational overhaul has been needed on defense since at least 2016.

But I would bet we are going to just hire another "experienced" Coordinator and draft another CB in round 1 in four months, because that is what the Packers do.

Thank you!

I have said over an over I do not like Barry and it was a &%$@ hire from the start. That being said this is Capers all over again. For whatever reason we had a large group of fans talking about how we have all these first round picks on defense… Datone Jones, Dumbarious, Nick Perry, blah blah $%@# blah… and how the defense should be performing better given the talent they had.

It doesn’t matter if they’re first round picks and playing like they should have been drafted in the 4th round. We’ve just gotta kill the first scapegoat which is Barry to get to the real problem, Gutenbumst. But Barry should have never been hired in the first place so I’m good with him still getting the boot.

If you want to get real deep, the Packers defense has always sucked since like 1968 for the exception of when we had Reggie White and Charles Woodson. And even those eras ever really saw only like 2 years of great defense in a row.

Your Gutebumst blame isn't deep enough. We all know it's a problem. But you stating "change the GM" isn't any more fixing the root cause than change the DC.

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 13:01

I have said over an over I do not like Barry and it was a &%$@ hire from the start. That being said this is Capers all over again. For whatever reason we had a large group of fans talking about how we have all these first round picks on defense… Datone Jones, Dumbarious, Nick Perry, blah blah $%@# blah… and how the defense should be performing better given the talent they had.

It doesn’t matter if they’re first round picks and playing like they should have been drafted in the 4th round. We’ve just gotta kill the first scapegoat which is Barry to get to the real problem, Gutenbumst. But Barry should have never been hired in the first place so I’m good with him still getting the boot.

Yeah except every other team can beat Tommy Devito and Baker Mayfield and make them look way less impressive without 11 stud starters, and with lots of guys you would say should never be on the field at all taking starting or significant snaps.

Try again.

If defense wins championships, the Packers never got the memo, reality is that a defense with weak positions will be exploited, Capers schemes ( the Fangio cover 2 concepts) like any other schemes are not capable of over coming weak positional play, at least not with the consistency needed against strong passing teams, Capers lost the talent necessary to sustain the success of his first couple season.

a team only has so many resources available, and if you miss on picks, and wont use UFA to replace the misses, then the defense is bound to decline.

we just about rebuilt this offense in 2 drafts, we've been building this defense since we lost Collins, it's so easy to just blame the DC's.

Yoop wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 14:38

If defense wins championships, the Packers never got the memo, reality is that a defense with weak positions will be exploited, Capers schemes ( the Fangio cover 2 concepts) like any other schemes are not capable of over coming weak positional play, at least not with the consistency needed against strong passing teams, Capers lost the talent necessary to sustain the success of his first couple season.

a team only has so many resources available, and if you miss on picks, and wont use UFA to replace the misses, then the defense is bound to decline.

we just about rebuilt this offense in 2 drafts, we've been building this defense since we lost Collins, it's so easy to just blame the DC's.

We have had a lot of failures on our offensive drafts the past few years too.

Lot of WR fails. TE fails. OL fails since 2015.

2022 and 2023 were just really strong drafts.

go pak go wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 14:55

Yoop wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 14:38

If defense wins championships, the Packers never got the memo, reality is that a defense with weak positions will be exploited, Capers schemes ( the Fangio cover 2 concepts) like any other schemes are not capable of over coming weak positional play, at least not with the consistency needed against strong passing teams, Capers lost the talent necessary to sustain the success of his first couple season.

a team only has so many resources available, and if you miss on picks, and wont use UFA to replace the misses, then the defense is bound to decline.

we just about rebuilt this offense in 2 drafts, we've been building this defense since we lost Collins, it's so easy to just blame the DC's.

We have had a lot of failures on our offensive drafts the past few years too.

Lot of WR fails. TE fails. OL fails since 2015.

2022 and 2023 were just really strong drafts.

true, some mid rounders misses, and some from the last 2 drafts may not pan out as well, but we've had sooo many more misses on defense, and GPG I believe if ya look you'll find that to be true with other teams, imo defense is just a harder fit to pick then offense, jmo

Yoop wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 15:15

go pak go wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 14:55

Yoop wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2023 14:38

If defense wins championships, the Packers never got the memo, reality is that a defense with weak positions will be exploited, Capers schemes ( the Fangio cover 2 concepts) like any other schemes are not capable of over coming weak positional play, at least not with the consistency needed against strong passing teams, Capers lost the talent necessary to sustain the success of his first couple season.

a team only has so many resources available, and if you miss on picks, and wont use UFA to replace the misses, then the defense is bound to decline.

we just about rebuilt this offense in 2 drafts, we've been building this defense since we lost Collins, it's so easy to just blame the DC's.

We have had a lot of failures on our offensive drafts the past few years too.

Lot of WR fails. TE fails. OL fails since 2015.

2022 and 2023 were just really strong drafts.

true, some mid rounders misses, and some from the last 2 drafts may not pan out as well, but we've had sooo many more misses on defense, and GPG I believe if ya look you'll find that to be true with other teams, imo defense is just a harder fit to pick then offense, jmo

If you're a Bears fan, they will tell you defense is a lot easier to find than offense.

All depends on how the world has shaped your viewpoint.

I'm honestly beginning to think MLF just enjoys $%@# with the fanbase...