Packers Huddle

Yoop wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 18:00

Drj820 wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 17:37

Labrev wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 17:11

There's a reason nobody tripped over themselves to sign Juju, not even the team that was so smart for doing it. KC is giving him 3.7m per year, 2.5m guaranteed. They're actually paying MVS more.

KC simply doesn't have the mindset of seeing their WRs as 1, 2, 3, 4 etc. They seem them as a group of guys who all bring something different to the table but all with an important role to play on the offense, and rather than lament over how none of them can wholesale replace what they got from Hill, they replace Hill's production piecemeal between all of them.

We otoh stupidly throw a tantrum over Doubs not being able to make Davante plays as a rookie.

Nobody tripped over him but he still was just a few yards short of 1000. He would have been a heck of a better option for us than Sammy Watkins. Even you admit he was cheap. Not sure why we thought hammy Watkins would be adequate.

Shuster would have been our #1, and with Rodgers, on this team last year, could and probably would have seen more targeted throws, more catches and more yrds, the defense of Lazard, Tonyan, or anyone not named Watson, seems over blown.

course I lack some Ju Ju info, just how many drops did he have last year

Yeah the convo can’t really go far when we are expected to see Kelce and Tonyan as comparable weapons

Drj820 wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 18:05

Yoop wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 18:00

Drj820 wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 17:37

Nobody tripped over him but he still was just a few yards short of 1000. He would have been a heck of a better option for us than Sammy Watkins. Even you admit he was cheap. Not sure why we thought hammy Watkins would be adequate.

Shuster would have been our #1, and with Rodgers, on this team last year, could and probably would have seen more targeted throws, more catches and more yrds, the defense of Lazard, Tonyan, or anyone not named Watson, seems over blown.

course I lack some Ju Ju info, just how many drops did he have last year

Yeah the convo can’t really go far when we are expected to see Kelce and Tonyan as comparable weapons

and they call me a homer, I defend one of the greatest to ever play the game, they defend jags like Tonyan and Lazard

Drj820 wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 17:37

Nobody tripped over him but he still was just a few yards short of 1000. He would have been a heck of a better option for us than Sammy Watkins. Even you admit he was cheap. Not sure why we thought hammy Watkins would be adequate.

1000 yards over 17 games (which he didn't hit) isn't that impressive. It's 58.8 yards per game.

I looked it up. His average per game was 58.3, and he played all but one game. Lazard's was 52.5. He missed two games, and played banged up in a few.

Lazard is just a poor man's Juju. And we've paid accordingly.

I think what you folks are saying about MVS is way more true of Juju, i.e. that he's a guy who isn't gonna cut it as a starter, but that if you put him in the slot next to an elite WR/TE and a legit vertical threat both of whom command way more attention from opposing defenses, he can give you solid production.

But yeah Watkins was a lousy signing. I wanted Julio, though he only had 300 yards to Sammy's 200. At least he would have shown the young WRs how an all-pro approaches the game.

Tonyan isn't the guy to compare to Kelce. Kelce is their one elite weapon on O. Ours is Jones.

The TE position to us is what the RB position is to them. They're underwhelming there despite constant efforts to try to improve it.

Their top rusher this season only had 60 more yards than AJ Dillon, and fewer TDs.

Labrev wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 20:52

Drj820 wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 17:37

Nobody tripped over him but he still was just a few yards short of 1000. He would have been a heck of a better option for us than Sammy Watkins. Even you admit he was cheap. Not sure why we thought hammy Watkins would be adequate.

1000 yards over 17 games (which he didn't hit) isn't that impressive. It's 58.8 yards per game.

I looked it up. His average per game was 58.3, and he played all but one game. Lazard's was 52.5. He missed two games, and played banged up in a few.

Lazard is just a poor man's Juju. And we've paid accordingly.

I think what you folks are saying about MVS is way more true of Juju, i.e. that he's a guy who isn't gonna cut it as a starter, but that if you put him in the slot next to an elite WR/TE and a legit vertical threat both of whom command way more attention from opposing defenses, he can give you solid production.

But yeah Watkins was a lousy signing. I wanted Julio, though he only had 300 yards to Sammy's 200. At least he would have shown the young WRs how an all-pro approaches the game.

This is an insane argument. Lazard was a true WR1. We desperately needed more out of him. Juju was WR1 with an MVS, Toney, Hardeman, and KELCE hogging targets. Under those circumstances, for juju to still more get yards than Lazard is a huge indictment on Lazard. Further, Lazards best season is a season with 788 yards, juju has a season with over 1400 yards!

So beyond that…let’s pretend they were near equals..when the next best guy for most of the year is Cobb or Watkins, why not have two Lazards? Juju was cheap. Why do we always think if we have one guy capable of catching a pass, then we better not get anymore! Receiver is a position it would be great to have multiple threats. We seem to think it’s illegal to have more than one.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 21:06

Labrev wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 20:52

Drj820 wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 17:37

Nobody tripped over him but he still was just a few yards short of 1000. He would have been a heck of a better option for us than Sammy Watkins. Even you admit he was cheap. Not sure why we thought hammy Watkins would be adequate.

1000 yards over 17 games (which he didn't hit) isn't that impressive. It's 58.8 yards per game.

I looked it up. His average per game was 58.3, and he played all but one game. Lazard's was 52.5. He missed two games, and played banged up in a few.

Lazard is just a poor man's Juju. And we've paid accordingly.

I think what you folks are saying about MVS is way more true of Juju, i.e. that he's a guy who isn't gonna cut it as a starter, but that if you put him in the slot next to an elite WR/TE and a legit vertical threat both of whom command way more attention from opposing defenses, he can give you solid production.

But yeah Watkins was a lousy signing. I wanted Julio, though he only had 300 yards to Sammy's 200. At least he would have shown the young WRs how an all-pro approaches the game.

This is an insane argument. Lazard was a true WR1. We desperately needed more out of him. Juju was WR1 with an MVS, Toney, Hardeman, and KELCE hogging targets. Under those circumstances, for juju to still more get yards than Lazard is a huge indictment on Lazard. Further, Lazards best season is a season with 788 yards, juju has a season with over 1400 yards!

So beyond that…let’s pretend they were near equals..when the next best guy for most of the year is Cobb or Watkins, why not have two Lazards? Juju was cheap. Why do we always think if we have one guy capable of catching a pass, then we better not get anymore! Receiver is a position it would be great to have multiple threats. We seem to think it’s illegal to have more than one.

your wasting your time, your dealing with a Guty defender, the last 3 years Adams was here he was the #1 read on 80% of the pass plays, why, because the drop off to the next receiver was so steep, that wouldn't have happened with a better compliment to Adams, or even a better option at TE, Rodgers didn't just decide to throw to Adams more, he was forced to.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 21:06

1000 yards over 17 games (which he didn't hit) isn't that impressive. It's 58.8 yards per game.

I looked it up. His average per game was 58.3, and he played all but one game. Lazard's was 52.5. He missed two games, and played banged up in a few.

This is an insane argument. Lazard was a true WR1. We desperately needed more out of him.

Yeah, that was the whole problem.

Lazard was the top target until Watson broke out. Thus, he was the guy who drew the opposing defense's best cover corner and possibly had a safety shadowing him. As opposed to.....

Juju was WR1 with an MVS, Toney, Hardeman, and KELCE hogging targets. Under those circumstances, for juju to still more get yards than Lazard is a huge indictment on Lazard.

No it's not. It's a case of a middling player feeding off of better talent around him, and a QB who rather than forcing the ball to his top target (*cough* ERIN *cough*) actually throws it to the open guy. Lazard had no such benefit (see above).

If I'm not mistaken, Juju plays primarily out of the slot for KC. It's not hard to figure out why, most top boundary corners could cover him easily; at least you have to respect MVS's speed.


>> If you're an opposing defense, who would you rather make KC try to beat you with: the HOF-bound Kelce, the guy who runs 4.37, or Juju's slow ass?

As far as I'm concerned, Kelce is WR1 for them, listed position be damned. In truth, MVS is probably a bigger impact guy beyond what the stat sheet shows.

Further, Lazards best season is a season with 788 yards, juju has a season with over 1400 yards!

Yeah, like five years ago. At this point, that season is an outlier.

I haven't followed his career closely enough to know why he's never gotten close to the breakout year. Could be injuries taking athleticism away. Maybe he's coasting. Anyone's guess.

Yet there's a reason not 1 of 32 teams, even with their general penchant for overpaying FA's, have banked on him being that guy again, not even the ones that did sign him. And to date, they have been right.

He's a name at this point, hyped up by that one year.

So beyond that…let’s pretend they were near equals..when the next best guy for most of the year is Cobb or Watkins, why not have two Lazards? Juju was cheap. Why do we always think if we have one guy capable of catching a pass, then we better not get anymore! Receiver is a position it would be great to have multiple threats. We seem to think it’s illegal to have more than one.

This assumes we would have gotten the same production from him as KC did.

I argue no. KC is a situation where he can produce (defense focuses on two other guys). GB is not, for the same reason it's not for Lazard. Here, he would have just been another receiver that doesn't separate much.

On a more personal preference level, I don't see a point in doubling up on a skill-set that isn't very dynamic or play-making, unless it's a skill-set that really "pops" in the scheme your team runs.

Labrev wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 17:11

There's a reason nobody tripped over themselves to sign Juju, not even the team that was so smart for doing it. KC is giving him 3.7m per year, 2.5m guaranteed. They're actually paying MVS more.

So we really were dumb here. We should have paid just an extra $2 million for JuJu rather than Watkins?

Good grief. What was YoHo thinking?

Drj820 wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 21:06

This is an insane argument.

Shuster was a better WR then anyone we've drafted or had on this team since we took Adams in 2014, and it's not even close, 2500 yrds in his first 2 season, other then the two seasons where he lost games to injury Shuster was basically a 1000 yrd receiver, just mentioning Lazard or anyone we've had in the same sentence as Shuster is a insult to sanity.

people here will defend the &%$@ show at WR here and just blame Rodgers for not turning the likes of Lazard or the Alisons, Scantlings, the Browns into a player like Shuster forever, not to would mean they wont be able to just blame the QB, or do as well defending the GM

I'am starting to agree with Lupe, trade Rodgers, fire the whole FO, tank for 5 years, and eventually we can become the Cincinnati Bengals everyone will be happy as long as where dreaming that Shuster isn't a better receiver then the jags we've partner'd up with Adams the 8 years he was here, might as well go completely off the rails and dream big

Yoop wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 21:55

Drj820 wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 21:06

Labrev wrote: ↑

25 Jan 2023 20:52

1000 yards over 17 games (which he didn't hit) isn't that impressive. It's 58.8 yards per game.

I looked it up. His average per game was 58.3, and he played all but one game. Lazard's was 52.5. He missed two games, and played banged up in a few.

Lazard is just a poor man's Juju. And we've paid accordingly.

I think what you folks are saying about MVS is way more true of Juju, i.e. that he's a guy who isn't gonna cut it as a starter, but that if you put him in the slot next to an elite WR/TE and a legit vertical threat both of whom command way more attention from opposing defenses, he can give you solid production.

But yeah Watkins was a lousy signing. I wanted Julio, though he only had 300 yards to Sammy's 200. At least he would have shown the young WRs how an all-pro approaches the game.

This is an insane argument. Lazard was a true WR1. We desperately needed more out of him. Juju was WR1 with an MVS, Toney, Hardeman, and KELCE hogging targets. Under those circumstances, for juju to still more get yards than Lazard is a huge indictment on Lazard. Further, Lazards best season is a season with 788 yards, juju has a season with over 1400 yards!

So beyond that…let’s pretend they were near equals..when the next best guy for most of the year is Cobb or Watkins, why not have two Lazards? Juju was cheap. Why do we always think if we have one guy capable of catching a pass, then we better not get anymore! Receiver is a position it would be great to have multiple threats. We seem to think it’s illegal to have more than one.

your wasting your time, your dealing with a Guty defender, the last 3 years Adams was here he was the #1 read on 80% of the pass plays, why, because the drop off to the next receiver was so steep, that wouldn't have happened with a better compliment to Adams, or even a better option at TE, Rodgers didn't just decide to throw to Adams more, he was forced to.

I mean of course Adams should be the #1 read on the made up stat of 80% of plays. He should be more honestly. Why wouldn't you want to highlight the best WR in the game as the #1 read?

But just because you are the number 1 read, doesn't mean you have to throw to him. I expect a QB to the caliber of Rodgers to be able to scan the field and anticipate openings based on knowledge of his play vs what he sees on the opposing defense at a higher level than Brock Purdy.

This is about as honest and granular as I will get regarding Rodgers. In January (especially 2020 and 2021), when the opposing defense allocated significant resources to take away Adams, you have to be able, as field general, to find the weak spot elsewhere. And we have visual evidence of other WRs left wide open or balls missed to folks like Lazard, MVS, Tonyan, etc. on key plays. That's my honest only gripe about Aaron Rodgers from 2019 - 2021. It's a very small list but they were such key moments that it was a part in preventing the ultimate trophy.

As for moving forward, I don't see how trying to glue a broken vase together makes any sense. At some point you have to move on. And we are at that point.

go pak go wrote: ↑

26 Jan 2023 08:52

I mean of course Adams should be the #1 read on the made up stat of 80% of plays. He should be more honestly. Why wouldn't you want to highlight the best WR in the game as the #1 read?

Lafleur came right out and said it, nothing made up about Adams being #1 read on 80 plus % of pass plays, and NO Lafleur wouldn't have schemed it that way if he would have had better options, consequently Rodgers wouldn't have developed tunnel vision or so polarized and fixated on Adams, and we both know what I'am saying is true.

and he did scan the field and read through his progressions ( when he had time) the reason he didn't throw more to others has to do with there lack of ability to gain leverage on the DB when Rodgers read his progressions, this was never Rodgers not reading every receivers as they ran there routes, and he didn't always have time to relook at them later.

all I hear is a ton of made up &%$@ to defend less then even average WR's and blame the QB for not making them more talented.

your high lighting a few plays a game when someone other then Adams was open, as though that never happens to other QB's, again if the receiver isn't where he's suppose to be at the break points of his routes, the QB may never get another look at him.

also the reason defenses where able to double and at times triple cover Adams has to do with the lack of fear they had that others required that tight of coverage, it speaks volumes to how poor the rest of our WR's are

Yoop. That's how playoffs work. Two to three plays is literally the difference.

It worked for us in 2010. Against us all the other years.

Yoop wrote: ↑

26 Jan 2023 08:52

Shuster was a better WR then anyone we've drafted or had on this team since we took Adams in 2014, and it's not even close, 2500 yrds in his first 2 season, other then the two seasons where he lost games to injury Shuster was basically a 1000 yrd receiver, just mentioning Lazard or anyone we've had in the same sentence as Shuster is a insult to sanity.

A whole whopping six(!) yards per game better.

NOT EVEN CLOSE!!

go pak go wrote: ↑

26 Jan 2023 09:24

Yoop. That's how playoffs work. Two to three plays is literally the difference.

It worked for us in 2010. Against us all the other years.

It's a insult for you to ever think I would agree, go back to any PO game including 2010 and you will see QB's not throwing to open receivers, the QB has far to much to think about during a 2 to 3 second span to see 60 yards wide and all the traffic in between not to miss open receivers.

all 22 and overheads obviously can pick them out, but thats hardly the view a player on the field gets, and you can pick any QB apart in every game for not spotting a open receiver

Labrev wrote: ↑

26 Jan 2023 09:51

Yoop wrote: ↑

26 Jan 2023 08:52

Shuster was a better WR then anyone we've drafted or had on this team since we took Adams in 2014, and it's not even close, 2500 yrds in his first 2 season, other then the two seasons where he lost games to injury Shuster was basically a 1000 yrd receiver, just mentioning Lazard or anyone we've had in the same sentence as Shuster is a insult to sanity.

A whole whopping six(!) yards per game better.

NOT EVEN CLOSE!!

ive already explained its much different when Lazard is expected to be the best receiver by far on the team and we desperately need him to put up MORE yards, and he gives us less than 800....than when Juju is just short of 1000 yards and he shares the field with a reception monster like Kelce and MVS, Hardeman, and Toney...who are all better than sammy watkins and cobb

The idea that Smith-Shuster's statline suffers from having guys like Kelce and MVS around him is pure "fantasy football"-logic. It's the exact opposite.

Fantasy Football tells you to buy Randall Cobb in 2015 because with Jordy on IR, Cobb is WR1 now and will get most if not all of the targets.

Not only is that a bad policy in real-life football, because Cobb is not a guy with the talent to be WR1, it's not even good advice for fantasy because his actual production is better when you he's NOT WR1. In reality and in fantasy he's way more productive in 2014 when Jordy is on the field than when he's "WR1" in 2015.

Labrev wrote: ↑

26 Jan 2023 09:58

The idea that Smith-Shuster's statline suffers from having guys like Kelce and MVS around him is pure "fantasy football"-logic. It's the exact opposite.

Fantasy Football tells you to buy Randall Cobb in 2015 because with Jordy on IR, Cobb is WR1 now and will get most if not all of the targets.

Not only is that a bad policy in real-life football, because Cobb is not a guy with the talent to be WR1, it's not even good advice for fantasy because his actual production is better when you he's NOT WR1. In reality and in fantasy he's way more productive in 2014 when Jordy is on the field than when he's "WR1" in 2015.

Kelce was 6th in the entire league in targets...thats for everyone-Rbs, WRs, and TEs....there are only so many snaps in a game...the idea that Kelce getting such a large share of the percentage of targets doesnt hamper other pass catchers targets is insane lol.

To get just under 1000 yards and share the field with Kelce is actually incredible.

If while Adams was in GB, if we had another WR even sniff 900+ yards we would think that was amazing

Drj820 wrote: ↑

26 Jan 2023 10:17

Labrev wrote: ↑

26 Jan 2023 09:58

The idea that Smith-Shuster's statline suffers from having guys like Kelce and MVS around him is pure "fantasy football"-logic. It's the exact opposite.

Fantasy Football tells you to buy Randall Cobb in 2015 because with Jordy on IR, Cobb is WR1 now and will get most if not all of the targets.

Not only is that a bad policy in real-life football, because Cobb is not a guy with the talent to be WR1, it's not even good advice for fantasy because his actual production is better when you he's NOT WR1. In reality and in fantasy he's way more productive in 2014 when Jordy is on the field than when he's "WR1" in 2015.

Kelce was 6th in the entire league in targets...thats for everyone-Rbs, WRs, and TEs....there are only so many snaps in a game...the idea that Kelce getting such a large share of the percentage of targets doesnt hamper other pass catchers targets is insane lol.

To get just under 1000 yards and share the field with Kelce is actually incredible.

If while Adams was in GB, if we had another WR even sniff 900+ yards we would think that was amazing

or that we may have actually gotten a SB birth

people think I'am the goofy one, I'd be ashamed of trying to convince a 10 yr of the opinions others try and sell in this conversation, all in the defense of not bringing in better receivers this last decade.