Packers Huddle

Raptorman wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 11:31

The underlying fact is that type of thing was happening all game and they didn’t call it. To call it at the end of the game in an important situation only amplifies the refs influence on the game.

Did it happen all game without being called? I don't recall replays showing such throughout the game.

People say that calling the defensive holding there influenced the game. Sure it did. But the holding also influenced the game by influencing the play, making it so the WR couldn't get to the ball for a TD.

Yoop wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 11:27

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 10:51

Yoop wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 10:47

that view doesn't show it as well, the side view shows the DB's right hand pulling back on the shoulder, it spun Shuster back, then the DB right hand slide down and grabbed the jersey, the hit to the shoulder is classic DB 101, been taught since I was a kid, and rarely called, but is just as affective as a jersey grab, which usually is called, thats my opinion on this subject, we can agree to disagree.

Can you show us this supposed view?

it doesn't capture the hit and initial hold, mostly just a glancing blow and slide to the shirt grabbing.

the right hand hooked the shoulder of Shuster,

the DB near stopped Shuster cold in that process, easily impeding his momentum

A bit of an inconsistent description of the play... I haven't seen an angle that shows this hooking or grabbing of the shoulder that impedes Schuster's momentum.

Acrobat wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 11:42

Raptorman wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 11:31

Pugger wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 10:44

The thing I hate about these calls on the defense is the automatic first down. DBs league wide get hammered by this rule all the time all season long.

The underlying fact is that type of thing was happening all game and they didn’t call it. To call it at the end of the game in an important situation only amplifies the refs influence on the game.

I’ve seen this argument a lot. And I’m curious, are there videos or specific places where this kind of penalty definitely happened and it went uncalled?

Just watch the game. A lot of what went on in the secondary was uncalled. It always is. They let them play for 58 minutes and then get picky for the last two.

wallyuwl wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 11:56

Raptorman wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 11:31

The underlying fact is that type of thing was happening all game and they didn’t call it. To call it at the end of the game in an important situation only amplifies the refs influence on the game.

Did it happen all game without being called? I don't recall replays showing such throughout the game.

People say that calling the defensive holding there influenced the game. Sure it did. But the holding also influenced the game by influencing the play, making it so the WR couldn't get to the ball for a TD.

I have to go back and rewatch it it, but I’m pretty sure the ball was thrown away.

Raptorman wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 12:02

Acrobat wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 11:42

Raptorman wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 11:31

The underlying fact is that type of thing was happening all game and they didn’t call it. To call it at the end of the game in an important situation only amplifies the refs influence on the game.

I’ve seen this argument a lot. And I’m curious, are there videos or specific places where this kind of penalty definitely happened and it went uncalled?

Just watch the game. A lot of what went on in the secondary was uncalled. It always is. They let them play for 58 minutes and then get picky for the last two.

So you don't have any specific examples of when the same kind of play wasn't called during the game.

Raptorman wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 12:03

I have to go back and rewatch it it, but I’m pretty sure the ball was thrown away.

No, it was thrown in the back left corner of the end zone. It was an attempt to get the TD and it probably would have been if not for the grabbing of the DB.

wallyuwl wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 12:30

Raptorman wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 12:03

I have to go back and rewatch it it, but I’m pretty sure the ball was thrown away.

No, it was thrown in the back left corner of the end zone. It was an attempt to get the TD and it probably would have been if not for the grabbing of the DB.

Doubtful, it was a 5 yard "overthrow." The grab of the jersey did not hinder him enough to make up for those 5 yards.

Yoop wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 10:39

Scott4Pack wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 10:29

Yoop wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 07:46

up to that call I thought Philly got away with another non call by a official, Shuster was interfered with on a earlier play, plus the 2 play reviews that went the Eagles way, I thought the fumble that was ruled incomplete was actually a fumble.

other then those 4 or 5 plays I though the refs did a fair job, just a really hard fought game.

You are right on most of those points. But the non-fumble was truly a non-fumble, by definition of the rule.

I suppose, only because he didn't take a step, but he caught it, had control and made the turn, he just didn't take a step, I've seen it called a fumble in other games, discretion of the officials, it took plenty of time in a booth review to make that decision, again, I think most calls last night favored the Eagles.

Yup. They used to say that a “football move” was required. Now, we usually see that as taking a step. I suppose it’s the equivalent of surviving to the ground when a catch is made as a player is falling. They must survive the ground while keeping control.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 12:35

wallyuwl wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 12:30

Raptorman wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 12:03

I have to go back and rewatch it it, but I’m pretty sure the ball was thrown away.

No, it was thrown in the back left corner of the end zone. It was an attempt to get the TD and it probably would have been if not for the grabbing of the DB.

Doubtful, it was a 5 yard "overthrow." The grab of the jersey did not hinder him enough to make up for those 5 yards.

Disagree

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 12:35

wallyuwl wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 12:30

Raptorman wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 12:03

I have to go back and rewatch it it, but I’m pretty sure the ball was thrown away.

No, it was thrown in the back left corner of the end zone. It was an attempt to get the TD and it probably would have been if not for the grabbing of the DB.

Doubtful, it was a 5 yard "overthrow." The grab of the jersey did not hinder him enough to make up for those 5 yards.

come on, I know you know that is very debatable, your talking two strides, so slowing the get off and break of Shuster could easily amount to 5 yrds, cripes you act like you never played the game

That's why I said doubtful...

2 strides is a lot. A sprinter at full speed could make up those 5 yards in 2 strides. Schuster, not at full speed, would take a little more. Regardless, the pull on the jersey did not look as though it was significant enough to hinder him by 15 feet.

cripes you act like you never played the game

Why are you a constant grump toward others? This was a needless comment.

Let's take a look at that incompletion first called a fumble.
Point of catch: Shoulder turn: Point of ball loose: Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hW7VMOq5Pk

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 13:21

That's why I said doubtful...

2 strides is a lot. A sprinter at full speed could make up those 5 yards in 2 strides. Schuster, not at full speed, would take a little more. Regardless, the pull on the jersey did not look as though it was significant enough to hinder him by 15 feet.

cripes you act like you never played the game

Why are you a constant grump toward others? This was a needless comment.

simple, you continue to avoid the truth, the reason it took time to get to speed was created by the illegal jam and grab, you simply refuse to acknowledge that , and for what reason is confusing, since that was the only reason that matters and why the penalty was called, it becomes frustrating when you wont acknowledge simple truths, then come back with he couldn't have gotten to the pitch point on a clean release anyway type comment, and now your turning it into 15 ft to what? make it seem longer? you know damn well Brandon thats not even a blink of a eye time span when running., right no one can say he would have closed that gap, but without the interference it would have been a lot closer.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 13:49

Let's take a look at that incompletion first called a fumble.
Point of catch:
Screenshot 2023-02-13 1.45.29 PM.png
Shoulder turn:
image.png
Point of ball loose:
Screenshot 2023-02-13 1.45.56 PM.png

Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hW7VMOq5Pk

and you don't think that turn constituted a football move, he had control and obviously turned to run, I don't think the officials got that right, Philly got the compliment of the refs there buddy,

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 10:35

Yoop wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 10:24

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 10:15

I think you might want to do as you suggest as this description is not accurate. There was a pull on the jersey, but not grab on the shoulder that "stopped Schuster cold."

ya it is, here you are again telling me your version which is wrong, the right hand hooked the shoulder of Shuster, then slid down and grabbed the jersey, thats classic PI, I did it often when I played, it's a tech every DB learns, as the DB said, I did it and hoped I wouldn't get caught.

https://www.foxsports.com/watch/play-635d37b80000ccb

Nope, no shoulder hooked stopping him cold.

the DB near stopped Shuster cold in that process, easily impeding his momentum

This just didn't happen. Schuster was running a whip route, which is slant in then cut back outside on a wheel. Schuster's route redirected him, not the DB.

The jersey pull, while to the letter is a hold did not appreciably affect his route. It certainly did not affect it enough where he could have caught up to the 5 yard "overthrow."

It didn't stop him cold, but the replay linked here starts at the instant the hold is ending. The hold was not on the upfield run, but on the out-cut. James Bradberry said, himself, he tugged the jersey. Mike Pereirra in the booth said the jersey tug will consistently draw a foul and should be called. This penalty controversy is a total non-issue. The reliable rules interpreter and former head of officiating, the offending party, and the refs all agreed. It was a "before the throw" penalty, so the quality and placement throw doesn't matter in the least.

I hated that it was a ticky-tack call in a crucial moment; I hated that it's an automatic first down. But it wasn't egregious, wrong, bad, or rigged. It was a routine jersey tug on a route cut leading to a penalty.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 13:49

Let's take a look at that incompletion first called a fumble.
Point of catch:
Screenshot 2023-02-13 1.45.29 PM.png
Shoulder turn:
image.png
Point of ball loose:
Screenshot 2023-02-13 1.45.56 PM.png

Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hW7VMOq5Pk

Looked like a fumble real time. The “football move” thing is questionable but no clear and decisive evidence to change the original call. Interestingly and inconsistently this is would be a clear fumble if the player was catching a punt instead and established possession before getting blasted without another “football move”

Yoop wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 13:55

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 13:21

That's why I said doubtful...

2 strides is a lot. A sprinter at full speed could make up those 5 yards in 2 strides. Schuster, not at full speed, would take a little more. Regardless, the pull on the jersey did not look as though it was significant enough to hinder him by 15 feet.

cripes you act like you never played the game

Why are you a constant grump toward others? This was a needless comment.

simple, you continue to avoid the truth, the reason it took time to get to speed was created by the illegal jam and grab, you simply refuse to acknowledge that , and for what reason is confusing, since that was the only reason that matters and why the penalty was called, it becomes frustrating when you wont acknowledge simple truths, then come back with he couldn't have gotten to the pitch point on a clean release anyway type comment, and now your turning it into 15 ft to what? make it seem longer? you know damn well Brandon thats not even a blink of a eye time span when running., right no one can say he would have closed that gap, but without the interference it would have been a lot closer.

Why do I have to acknowledge something that isn't factual or true? What simply truth am I not acknowledging?

What illegal jam? All contact happens at the line of scrimmage. I have acknowledged by the letter of the rule it is a penalty for the grab of the jersey. Turning it into 15 feet? 15 feet is 5 yards: Blink of an eye when running? 15 feet is about 2 strides for a world class sprinter at top speed. THAT is actual fact. So sure, you could call that a blink of an eye, but that blink is still 15 feet. It absolutely would have been closer without the pull of the jersey, but I still doubt that Schuster is able to make it under that throw as the pull was not a significant detriment to his route.

Again, why the aggression? This is a simple conversation with 2 differing opinions. No need to get upset.

lake shark wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 14:06

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 13:49

Let's take a look at that incompletion first called a fumble.
Point of catch:
Screenshot 2023-02-13 1.45.29 PM.png
Shoulder turn:
image.png
Point of ball loose:
Screenshot 2023-02-13 1.45.56 PM.png

Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hW7VMOq5Pk

Looked like a fumble real time. The “football move” thing is questionable but no clear and decisive evidence to change the original call. Interestingly and inconsistently this is would be a clear fumble if the player was catching a punt instead and established possession before getting blasted without another “football move”

You can watch it in real time on the link provided. It was so bang bang that it was hard to pause a moment that was not the catch or hit. The right foot never moves from catch to hit and the left foot never gets past the right. I find it hard to say that is a football move.

A punt is live once it touches the receiving player on a punt. The player never has to gain possession of the ball on a punt for it to become live.

Yoop wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 13:59

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 13:49

Let's take a look at that incompletion first called a fumble.
Point of catch:
Screenshot 2023-02-13 1.45.29 PM.png
Shoulder turn:
image.png
Point of ball loose:
Screenshot 2023-02-13 1.45.56 PM.png

Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hW7VMOq5Pk

and you don't think that turn constituted a football move, he had control and obviously turned to run, I don't think the officials got that right, Philly got the compliment of the refs there buddy,

No, a turn is not a football move to me. He turns, but never gets a foot forward to run. He never even gets fully parallel to the line with his shoulders before he is hit.

No need for that last condescending comment.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 14:06

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 10:35

Yoop wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023 10:24

ya it is, here you are again telling me your version which is wrong, the right hand hooked the shoulder of Shuster, then slid down and grabbed the jersey, thats classic PI, I did it often when I played, it's a tech every DB learns, as the DB said, I did it and hoped I wouldn't get caught.

https://www.foxsports.com/watch/play-635d37b80000ccb

Nope, no shoulder hooked stopping him cold.

the DB near stopped Shuster cold in that process, easily impeding his momentum

This just didn't happen. Schuster was running a whip route, which is slant in then cut back outside on a wheel. Schuster's route redirected him, not the DB.

The jersey pull, while to the letter is a hold did not appreciably affect his route. It certainly did not affect it enough where he could have caught up to the 5 yard "overthrow."

It didn't stop him cold, but the replay linked here starts at the instant the hold is ending. The hold was not on the upfield run, but on the out-cut. James Bradberry said, himself, he tugged the jersey. Mike Pereirra in the booth said the jersey tug will consistently draw a foul and should be called. This penalty controversy is a total non-issue. The reliable rules interpreter and former head of officiating, the offending party, and the refs all agreed. It was a "before the throw" penalty, so the quality and placement throw doesn't matter in the least.

I hated that it was a ticky-tack call in a crucial moment; I hated that it's an automatic first down. But it wasn't egregious, wrong, bad, or rigged. It was a routine jersey tug on a route cut leading to a penalty.

The replay I linked starts at the snap of the ball. Did you look at the replay linked? https://www.foxsports.com/watch/play-635d37b80000ccb I have said consistently that there is a pull of the jersey that is, by rule, a penalty. Your last paragraph is where most of us are at. It's a penalty, but ticky-tack, one that is not called many times throughout the season and probably instances in that game where it was not called. As stated before the inconsistency is what bothers me and calling it then when not before. It made a very exciting game end with a bit of a flop.