Packers Huddle

Seems the place to put this.

https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2023 ... tt-lafleur

JustiN was talking about this in today's podcast with Le Blogger.

Some people have warned that we do not want to let a bad situation lead us to cut ties with a good coach who has just been hamstrung by the stuff around him.

To me, it is a situation no different than with Mac. He seems to have gotten things figured out in Dallas and may not have been a bad coach, but that does not mean he was going to have the same success here as he is having now over there.

Even good coaches hit a wall sometimes, for which the solution may be for both parties to make a change.

MM was a great coach but he was a bad offensive playcaller and schemer IMO. The best thing he ever did here was give up playcalling but unfortunately that was the same year Nelson tore his ACL, Lacy got fat, and Adams sprained his ankle that somehow led to him finding a way to cure the common cold because lord knows he couldnt catch diddly-poo.

The problem MM had that led to him getting fired is A) his roster was absolute &%$@ at the end of his tenure which was no fault of his own, and B) Rodgers wanted him fired.

He was a good leader of men in my opinion and I thought he did get a lot out of us even when we were significantly at a disadvantage with the talent on the roster. I think hes proving to be a good coach considering hes winning without Rodgers and Lafleur cant.

Unless there is a turnaround like our own or Detroit's midseason resurgence last year, I think MLF is toast.

And losing to the Rams would have the makings of a midseason firing, not with it happening right after that game per-se, more likely amid the tougher opponents following the Rams game, with the last straw being an embarrassing beatdown at the hands of one of them.

Rich Bisaccia has been Interim HC before, did an admirable job with it as well. Then you can also get to see how the O looks with Steno calling the shots. There is not much reason for optimism there, given how bad the O has looked with him as O-Coord, but who knows? Maybe the guy actually has great ideas and is just unable to get through with MLF running things.

Doubtful, but it would be a more worthwhile experiment than seeing what LaFleur can do at 2-9 or 3-10.

paco wrote: ↑

31 Oct 2023 11:24

Seems the place to put this.

https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2023 ... tt-lafleur

Thanks for finding that. I read about it, but could not find it.

It's oddly specific of a criteria. For example, because it is Super Bowl Era, Tom Landry is out who had 5 wins in his 5th season. Andy Reid had 6 wins in his 7th season with Philly, but does not count since the win limit is 5 (along with SB win). Same thing with Don Shula in his 7th season with Miami (along with a SB win). Same with Mike Shanahan in his 5th season with Denver (along with SB win). John Harbaugh had a 5-11 season with Baltimore in his 8ths season, but doesn't make the cut because he had previous Super Bowl win. Bill Cowher had 6 wins in his 12th season with Pittsburgh and no SB win and didn't make the cut of 5 wins. That is among the top 25 coaches in winning percentage.

So if we are getting hyper specific, it should probably be good to look at record before 5 win season in 5th+ year.

Jason Garrett - 1 winning season
Dan Reeves - 7 winnings seasons, 3 SB appearances
Marvin Lewis - 1 winning season
Wayne Fontes - 1 winning season
Bart Starr - 1 winning season
John McKay - 1 winning season
Jack Del Rio - 2 winning seasons
Sam Rutigliano - 2 winning seasons
Dick Nolan - 4 winning seasons
Mike Smith - 5 winning seasons
Jack Patera - 2 winning seasons
Dave Wannstedt - 2 winning season
John Robinson - 6 winning seasons

It could mean something and then again it could mean nothing.

I’ll always be a fan of MM. Excellent coach and leader IMO.

I don’t quite see that in MLF, but he can still successful if he’s a good tactician and x and o guy. I’d like the HC to the leader but that can come from in many forms.

Regardless, I don’t quite cat so much about wins and losses, but I would like to see some development and g row th in this team. Right now there is none and it looks rather lost most of the time week after week.

If I’m MLF, I’m picking just a couple concepts on offense and doing them until we get them right. And then I’ll add some more the next week. Variables are going to be cut back until some proficiency is shown. Can’t keep having wrong routes, same routes, blocking schemes where 1,2,3? Guys sometimes aren’t blocking anybody etc. get something right and move on.

And I’m telling me defensive coach to let guys get up and play and not wait for plays.

One should not mention MM as an excellent leader and not his utter failings in leadership his last year+ in Green Bay. The biggest reason he didn't stay in Green Bay was due to that lack of leadership at the end.

As for LaFleur, I could see him struggling with leadership of a young team as he may not possess the authoritative presence a young team needs.

1 out of 13, and one In which I do t see many guys being successful leading. But yes, that quality wasn’t displayed that year. But this team hit many rough spots and I thought he did well guiding them for the most part.

I haven’t really seen anything from MLF in his 3+ to make me think he’s a leader of men.

IMO McCarthy's scheme where dependent on players he no longer had, that was the biggest fail, and had been for a couple seasons, his shortcoming was not using the RB's and failing to dial down the go verticals, like a lot of coaches he seemed stubborn about it, it took going to Dallas to yank him out of his schemes and adjust, good for him.

Lafleur brought that game here, used the run to more then just keep a defense honest, more up tempo, motion, play action, even Rodgers bought in, he wanted some changes, even said it, doubt he expected or even wanted that much though, but it sure brought this offense back to life, obviously having Rodgers helped, but Matt was the man with a plan, give a better situation then he has this season I see no reason why he can't do that again

Poll remains open until the next game, but I think the results are basically in now: a not-insignificant number of fans place blame primarily on Gute, but MLF still "wins" the blame game, and by a majority vote. A couple folks place no blame, that this is just what's to be expected.

Coming into the season, Barry was the fanbase's whipping boy. I was definitely one of those fans, and do not feel differently about him. But if you had been told that midseason, the team looks really bad, and the fans are *not* primarily blaming Barry and the D for the issues, and not looking primarily at Jordan Love's play at QB... that would have sounded crazy. Yet here we are.

CWIMM wrote: ↑

31 Oct 2023 05:59

Drj820 wrote: ↑

30 Oct 2023 09:56

The roster is not good enough to win a super bowl.
The roster is plenty good enough to compete for a 7 seed.

The fact that the team is competing for a top 5 draft pick, is a lafleur thing.

Good coaching and good use of the players we do have, and good scheme and game management could absolutely navigate this team to a season we all find acceptable.

Lafleur has contributed none of that.

The current roster isn't good enough to come anywhere close to cliniching a wild card spot.

Labrev wrote: ↑

30 Oct 2023 10:01

If anything, I almost regret that Gute has added as much talent as he has, to a point where Barry's defective defensive gameplans look passable because there are lots of solid-to-good players and simply are no real "holes" on that side ala MD Jennings, Brad Jones, etc.

I'm sorry, but it's absolutely hilarious to believe Gutekunst has added too much talent when in fact he hasn't done enough to improve the roster.

Acrobat wrote: ↑

30 Oct 2023 11:00

So we shouldn't have ever drafted Aaron Rodgers?

Rodgers was drafted in a completely different situation than Love though.

Wow - this post is yoop-level bad. What an atrocious take.

Labrev wrote: ↑

01 Nov 2023 10:18

Poll remains open until the next game, but I think the results are basically in now: a not-insignificant number of fans place blame primarily on Gute, but MLF still "wins" the blame game, and by a majority vote. A couple folks place no blame, that this is just what's to be expected.

Coming into the season, Barry was the fanbase's whipping boy. I was definitely one of those fans, and do not feel differently about him. But if you had been told that midseason, the team looks really bad, and the fans are *not* primarily blaming Barry and the D for the issues, and not looking primarily at Jordan Love's play at QB... that would have sounded crazy. Yet here we are.

thats because most fans always blame the HC, and over look lousy drafts and decisions of the GM, thats where most fans should be focused, and seriously, no offense to anyone, but fans tend to be loyal to the FO over coaches, players and anything else.

fans should be listening to comments from the departed Douglas and the jibs of Alexander, and if fans think that there comments are the end of this, shipping Douglas out, I have suspicions that this could be just the beginning of the fracture unless Barry is fired, hope to be wrong, our worst fears seem on the horizon though.

Yoop wrote: ↑

01 Nov 2023 10:43

thats because most fans always blame the HC, and over look lousy drafts and decisions of the GM, thats where most fans should be focused, and seriously, no offense to anyone, but fans tend to be loyal to the FO over coaches, players and anything else.

fans should be listening to comments from the departed Douglas and the jibs of Alexander, and if fans think that there comments are the end of this, shipping Douglas out, I have suspicions that this could be just the beginning of the fracture unless Barry is fired, hope to be wrong, our worst fears seem on the horizon though.

fans this, fans that, fans fans fans fans fans.

Not very smart to knock the intelligence of fans when the poll shows over a third of them agree with your take.

Gunzaan wrote: ↑

01 Nov 2023 10:39

CWIMM wrote: ↑

31 Oct 2023 05:59

Drj820 wrote: ↑

30 Oct 2023 09:56

The roster is not good enough to win a super bowl.
The roster is plenty good enough to compete for a 7 seed.

The fact that the team is competing for a top 5 draft pick, is a lafleur thing.

Good coaching and good use of the players we do have, and good scheme and game management could absolutely navigate this team to a season we all find acceptable.

Lafleur has contributed none of that.

The current roster isn't good enough to come anywhere close to cliniching a wild card spot.

Labrev wrote: ↑

30 Oct 2023 10:01

If anything, I almost regret that Gute has added as much talent as he has, to a point where Barry's defective defensive gameplans look passable because there are lots of solid-to-good players and simply are no real "holes" on that side ala MD Jennings, Brad Jones, etc.

I'm sorry, but it's absolutely hilarious to believe Gutekunst has added too much talent when in fact he hasn't done enough to improve the roster.

Acrobat wrote: ↑

30 Oct 2023 11:00

So we shouldn't have ever drafted Aaron Rodgers?

Rodgers was drafted in a completely different situation than Love though.

Wow - this post is yoop-level bad. What an atrocious take.

the truth is something Packer fans hate to hear, CWIMM has been spot on with practically every post he makes imo, although I tend to disagree concerning the talent on the team, I think thats there, but there play now doesn't represent it, and I think thats the point he's making.

nice to know our respect for one another is intact.

Labrev wrote: ↑

01 Nov 2023 10:48

Yoop wrote: ↑

01 Nov 2023 10:43

thats because most fans always blame the HC, and over look lousy drafts and decisions of the GM, thats where most fans should be focused, and seriously, no offense to anyone, but fans tend to be loyal to the FO over coaches, players and anything else.

fans should be listening to comments from the departed Douglas and the jibs of Alexander, and if fans think that there comments are the end of this, shipping Douglas out, I have suspicions that this could be just the beginning of the fracture unless Barry is fired, hope to be wrong, our worst fears seem on the horizon though.

fans this, fans that, fans fans fans fans fans.

Not very smart to knock the intelligence of fans when the poll shows over a third of them agree with your take.

I said MOST, and thats what this poll reflects, most are blaming Lafleur, I blame the head nut.

To see the poll I chose unavoidable, but I just blame everyone.

Yoop wrote: ↑

01 Nov 2023 10:59

although I tend to disagree concerning the talent on the team, I think thats there, but there play now doesn't represent it,

You think the talent is there but play does not represent it, yet you blame the guy who brought that talent, not the guy who is tasked with getting them to play well... make it make sense.

Labrev wrote: ↑

01 Nov 2023 11:22

Yoop wrote: ↑

01 Nov 2023 10:59

although I tend to disagree concerning the talent on the team, I think thats there, but there play now doesn't represent it,

You think the talent is there but play does not represent it, yet you blame the guy who brought that talent, not the guy who is tasked with getting them to play well... make it make sense.

I f you don't think injuries are boot strapping Lafleur, your in good company, most of this forum agrees with you

Had to think this one through a few days, but definitely LaFleur right now.

His reliance on the bend, bend, bend and often break D just keeps killing our TOP, no aggression. Barry will change if the HC tells him to.

But all these all-22, deeper play analysis. Just so many weak mental mistakes, wrong routes, wrong communication, missed blocking assignments.

We knew we were stepping back in talent, but it’s not like we are just getting out muscled and out ran. So much beating ourselves, not prepared.

I think perhaps LaFleur underestimated how hard it is to coach up such a young team, keep the focus on the simple communication and fundamentals. Or got used to how easy it was when we had such a veteran team in the past. He’s the type of coach we could actually use on D. Someone who can turn great talent into something special, but can’t bring inexperienced talent.

It’s not even about too many negative plays, it’s about way too many plays where we don’t actually run a functioning play that 11 people are on the same page.

Yoop wrote: ↑

01 Nov 2023 11:46

Labrev wrote: ↑

01 Nov 2023 11:22

Yoop wrote: ↑

01 Nov 2023 10:59

although I tend to disagree concerning the talent on the team, I think thats there, but there play now doesn't represent it,

You think the talent is there but play does not represent it, yet you blame the guy who brought that talent, not the guy who is tasked with getting them to play well... make it make sense.

I f you don't think injuries are boot strapping Lafleur, your in good company, most of this forum agrees with you

No I mean, if you think the talent is there but the team is not playing up to it, why are you pointing the finger at Gute (the guy who got the talent) and not MLF (the guy who needs to get them to play well) -?