Packers Huddle

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 09:06

Acrobat wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 08:39

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 08:35

I knew I shouldn't have asked the question, because your reply right now is what I expected, have a good day.

Well yeah of course my response was snarky. I've been a member of this community since the 2007 season.

why the name change, who where you prior, I have no idea who I'am talking to except a bran new member?

My username has been Acrobat the whole time.

Labrev wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 08:45

Acrobat wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 07:53

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 07:43

No one ever mentions Lazard ducking a ball he could have caught and scored on 2nd down though on a run pass option.

Way too much dissecting of one game in a much larger conversation.

Let me break it down:

- Rodgers is awesome, one of the best ever.
- But some feel that he hasn't always risen above when it matters most.
- Yes there are definitely factors in play other than Rodgers that have resulted in NFCCG losses.
- No, no one is saying that those losses are all Rodgers' fault.

Add:
- Nobody thinks the team does not owe its relative success to Rodgers's play at QB.
- That Rodgers's play at QB will be easily replaceable (willingness to accept the risk =/= inability to appreciate the risk).

I am just going to call this for what it is: Rodgers Defense Force cannot fathom people having a nuanced position on Rodgers, so they're convinced that people who are critical of him are as rigid/black-and-white in their thinking as Rodgers Defense Force themselves are in their adulation of him.

It's projection, plain and simple.

everyone has a right to cretic Rodgers play, but to blame him when the defense gives up 30 points a game, or he has to make due with basically one very good receivers and a bunch of others that don't get open till Rodgers has to scramble for 5 years is a bit much for me, bunch of hypocrites.

Maybe spend less time typing 'short area quickness' for the 1,000th time and read more, read the posts you are responding to more without guessing intent and pay attention to the authors of posts?

Quite insulting there Mike.

I criticize the heck out of Rodgers when he takes sacks on 3rd downs. I've been doing it for years. I am vocal about it. I bring it up every time. I vent about it in gameday threads when I decide to be online. I still HATE when it happens.

Aaron Rodgers, both on the field and off the field, is also one of my favorite things about being a Packers fan. I love rooting for him. I think he is an unrivaled talent.

I have wished for many years that Aaron Rodgers prioritized first downs and moving the ball efficiently more than he sometimes does. I complained about it a lot. I often phrased it as "I want Aaron Rodgers to be Tom Brady when he grows up." I also compared it to Brees who has an annoying knack for finding the dump off right before time runs out in the pocket, and since his dumpoffs are often Kamara, a near-sack becomes a 4-8 yard gain. I envy that in other players. Rodgers, in 2020, finally started taking checkdowns more often and throwing the ball in the middle of the field more often, and he won MVP. I was happy with that.

I'm not particularly sure why these sorts of things are difficult to grasp in their totality. Like [mention]Labrev[/mention] said, it's pure black-and-white thinking. When I criticize Rodgers, it's because I see ways that he could utilize his talent more successfully, not because he doesn't have talent. When I criticize Rodgers, it's usually for something specific, not a statement about his general ability.

So yeah, maybe I'm The Guy budfox won't name. Because I'm certainly not quiet about it when I am annoyed. But that only goes to show that even the most critical-of-Rodgers posters still love him. I/we still recognize his greatness. We just don't subscribe to the "Infallibility of the Great QB" model of praise. It's wild that I can criticize the front office for moves I don't particularly like and still be seen (accurately) as a huge fan of the team management, yet I can't point out things Rodgers does wrong and still be seen as a fan of Aaron Rodgers.

Acrobat wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 09:08

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 09:06

Acrobat wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 08:39

Well yeah of course my response was snarky. I've been a member of this community since the 2007 season.

why the name change, who where you prior, I have no idea who I'am talking to except a bran new member?

My username has been Acrobat the whole time.

That is just precious. This might be my favorite user exchange of all time.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 09:13

I criticize the heck out of Rodgers

As do I. The thing is I do not unilaterally blame Rodgers for anything. There is plenty of blame to go around. The team destroys a much better defense one week and then acts like an inferior (but still obviously damn talented) defense is their kryptonite the next. They didn't "need" anything to have performed better in the NFCCG. They could have done it. They just didn't.

NCF wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 09:20

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 09:13

I criticize the heck out of Rodgers

As do I. The thing is I do not unilaterally blame Rodgers for anything. There is plenty of blame to go around. The team destroys a much better defense one week and then acts like an inferior (but still obviously damn talented) defense is their kryptonite the next. They didn't "need" anything to have performed better in the NFCCG. They could have done it. They just didn't.

There is nothing wrong with criticizing AR when it is warranted. Unfortunately QBs get too much blame and too much credit in this, the ultimate team game.

I must say I was concerned when I opened this thread. I was sure it was bad news. All I can say is it is June 3rd and he hasn't yet been traded...

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 09:13

have wished for many years that Aaron Rodgers prioritized first downs and moving the ball efficiently more than he sometimes does. I complained about it a lot. I often phrased it as "I want Aaron Rodgers to be Tom Brady when he grows up." I also compared it to Brees who has an annoying knack for finding the dump off right before time runs out in the pocket, and since his dumpoffs are often Kamara, a near-sack becomes a 4-8 yard gain. I envy that in other players. Rodgers, in 2020, finally started taking checkdowns more often and throwing the ball in the middle of the field more often, and he won MVP. I was happy with that.

first of all I've criticized Rodgers play at times to, and also been upset with the FO, like you, I accept that no one is perfect, but your point of Rodgers not taking check downs or maxing out first downs is so much a part of what McCarthy's game plans have been, sure we can blame Rodgers for not making on field adjustments, but then look how often fans have complained when he does, it's a two way street.
also over the years we've seldom had a Kamara, actually never till A Jones was here, and this offense now is what Rodgers has wanted since 017, so him finally now doing smaller ball was really not available prior, put Rodgers in Brady's situation under Belechick the last decade and you would have seen the short coast stuff the whole time.

Still, I will always contend that if we would have replaced Jordy and Cobb with more then just Adams back in 014 McCarthy's schemes would have kept on clicking, instead we spent high pick after high pick on defense and when it came to playoff time the defense gave the games away, yet who got the majority of the blame, Rodgers.

none of my comments where in any way directed at You, I have no issue with posters that cretic fairly, I'am probably one of the loudest critics of the FO these last 5 years simply because of what I consider poor management, but that doesn't mean I havn't been pleased with aspects of there management.


been a lot of anger with Rodgers lately, lots of name calling, if I where in his place I think I'd do exactly as he has, ya wanna draft my replacement a off season after extending me, fine, now go sleep in the bed you made.

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 09:46

first of all I've criticized Rodgers play at times to, and also been upset with the FO, like you, I accept that no one is perfect, but your point of Rodgers not taking check downs or maxing out first downs is so much a part of what McCarthy's game plans have been, sure we can blame Rodgers for not making on field adjustments, but then look how often fans have complained when he does, it's a two way street.

oh, 100%

Mike McCarthy's coaching got worse when he tried getting into analytics and had some major misinterpretations of the data--mostly reversing the causal link between big plays and great offenses.

Earlier in his tenure, there was plenty of quick strike to his offense. I mean, he's a west coast offense guy--tons of slants and intermediates and an active screen game.

But once he got hooked on maximizing the number of big plays, and clearly coached Rodgers to do the same, things turned downhill. The efficient offense sets up the big plays and makes them successful at a higher rate. But MM was convinced that attempting more big plays led to achieving more big plays which then allowed the short, efficient game underneath. So here we are, heaving the ball downfield on low-percentage plays all the time.

Rodgers bought into that, and he took a year with MLF before he finally sold it off. But that flaw/error was definitely a coordinated effort of failure between coach and QB.

NCF wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 09:20

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 09:13

I criticize the heck out of Rodgers

As do I. The thing is I do not unilaterally blame Rodgers for anything. There is plenty of blame to go around. The team destroys a much better defense one week and then acts like an inferior (but still obviously damn talented) defense is their kryptonite the next. They didn't "need" anything to have performed better in the NFCCG. They could have done it. They just didn't.

they needed a DC that wouldn't isolate his injured CB on a athlete with superior speed, and since Adams ended up being the only impact player on offense other then Rodgers obviously a quality slot receiver could have picked up that slack, but I guess none of that in your opinion would have changed the outcome.

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 10:04

NCF wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 09:20

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 09:13

I criticize the heck out of Rodgers

As do I. The thing is I do not unilaterally blame Rodgers for anything. There is plenty of blame to go around. The team destroys a much better defense one week and then acts like an inferior (but still obviously damn talented) defense is their kryptonite the next. They didn't "need" anything to have performed better in the NFCCG. They could have done it. They just didn't.

they needed a DC that wouldn't isolate his injured CB on a athlete with superior speed, and since Adams ended up being the only impact player on offense other then Rodgers obviously a quality slot receiver could have picked up that slack, but I guess none of that in your opinion would have changed the outcome.

I mean this can be said literally about every position, every side of the ball and every team.

"If we could have had a better player at X, we would have been better". That's not a bold statement. I could say that for literally any position on the squad.

But when you had a team that proved it could be successful with the unit that was in place and there are multiple plays, not just one or two, but multiple plays and multiple chances missed primarily by the offensive stars (Rodgers, Adams and Jones)it brings support that if the stars would have played to their expected level on just one additional play out of the 4 to 6 plays that were missed, the Packers could have still won even with the significant liabilities of Kevin King, Will Redmond and our two tackles on that day.

There are a combination of things that led to us losing. Your position is more of a "we needed more capital investment at position X" when many of us here feel that the environment was there to be successful and the players themselves simply failed to operate effectively enough to win.

It's really hard to develop a perfect squad from a roster development standpoint because so many things need to go your way. Players need to perform to projections, players need to stay healthy and chemistry needs to work between teammates. It's why I don't get too snarky on looking back at one missing player being missed when that position was already addressed somewhat but was lacking during the time because one WR held out to Covid and the other was on IR.

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 10:04

I guess none of that in your opinion would have changed the outcome.

go pak go wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 10:35

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 10:04

NCF wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 09:20

As do I. The thing is I do not unilaterally blame Rodgers for anything. There is plenty of blame to go around. The team destroys a much better defense one week and then acts like an inferior (but still obviously damn talented) defense is their kryptonite the next. They didn't "need" anything to have performed better in the NFCCG. They could have done it. They just didn't.

they needed a DC that wouldn't isolate his injured CB on a athlete with superior speed, and since Adams ended up being the only impact player on offense other then Rodgers obviously a quality slot receiver could have picked up that slack, but I guess none of that in your opinion would have changed the outcome.

I mean this can be said literally about every position, every side of the ball and every team.

"If we could have had a better player at X, we would have been better". That's not a bold statement. I could say that for literally any position on the squad.

But when you had a team that proved it could be successful with the unit that was in place and there are multiple plays, not just one or two, but multiple plays and multiple chances missed primarily by the offensive stars (Rodgers, Adams and Jones)it brings support that if the stars would have played to their expected level on just one additional play out of the 4 to 6 plays that were missed, the Packers could have still won even with the significant liabilities of Kevin King, Will Redmond and our two tackles on that day.

There are a combination of things that led to us losing. Your position is more of a "we needed more capital investment at position X" when many of us here feel that the environment was there to be successful and the players themselves simply failed to operate effectively enough to win.

It's really hard to develop a perfect squad from a roster development standpoint because so many things need to go your way. Players need to perform to projections, players need to stay healthy and chemistry needs to work between teammates. It's why I don't get too snarky on looking back at one missing player being missed when that position was already addressed somewhat but was lacking during the time because one WR held out to Covid and the other was on IR.

Pettine needed to give King over the top support, not just once, but at least twice that we know of, sure you can probably think of situations in other games that compare, but two wrongs don't make it right, the firing of Pettine, or his not being resigned had plenty to do with those brain farts, your just doing what you always do now, muddying up context, when Capers screwed up you blamed Capers, but since you and others want to shade blame to our best players, well we can't blame Pettine, that would lesson the culpability to blame Rodgers, (disrupted almost constantly the whole game) Adams (double and triple covered constantly, 11 catches on 14 targets for 65 yards and almost zero yac) and Aaron Jones who fumbled twice, with the second one being a game ender, never mind that he never had a open lane to run through since the blocking was so putrid.

and why wouldn't my position be that we lacked offensive impact players on that last drive, we didn't have any, Adams was mauled, the other receivers couldn't get open prior to the pass rush forcing Rodgers to scramble, and your (and others) response has been he shoulda done something, run (when that lber was set and ready had he done so, or have had perifial vison to see boundary to boundary as that pass rush was closing in, your comments are beyond silly.

NCF wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 10:57

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 10:04

I guess none of that in your opinion would have changed the outcome.

fools rush in.

I think my looooong post yesterday trying to boil down the disagreement was good, but also, maybe it's much simpler than that.

For some people, when a star player makes a blunder, like Jones' fumble or Adams' drop or Rodgers' missed throws, that player has "earned" the right/ability to make a mistake through his high-level play at other times. The more important mistakes are those by the JAGs around him, proving that they need better players.

For others, when a star player makes a blunder, you're more disappointed because you expect more from your star players. Sure, EQ dropped a 2-pointer; he's our WR5 for a reason. But in big moments, stars need to perform.

And that's really it. For some people, mistakes by stars don't matter; it's the rest of the guys who need to step up. And for others, you can't fill a whole roster with stars, so when some JAGs don't make plays, there's no disappointment; but when stars fail to rise to the occasion, that's the focus.

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 11:07

fools rush in.

I don't think that means what you think it does.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 11:11

I think my looooong post yesterday trying to boil down the disagreement was good, but also, maybe it's much simpler than that.

For some people, when a star player makes a blunder, like Jones' fumble or Adams' drop or Rodgers' missed throws, that player has "earned" the right/ability to make a mistake through his high-level play at other times. The more important mistakes are those by the JAGs around him, proving that they need better players.

For others, when a star player makes a blunder, you're more disappointed because you expect more from your star players. Sure, EQ dropped a 2-pointer; he's our WR5 for a reason. But in big moments, stars need to perform.

And that's really it. For some people, mistakes by stars don't matter; it's the rest of the guys who need to step up. And for others, you can't fill a whole roster with stars, so when some JAGs don't make plays, there's no disappointment; but when stars fail to rise to the occasion, that's the focus.

well how about better jags then, also the star player mistakes stand out more, just because the Stars are watched more intently, Rodgers as good as he is isn't perfect, he can't see side line to sideline, just because a player is open at one instant he very likely was not a instint prior, and to blame Jones for the fumbles when our ol was a sieve, on both plays the defender hit the ball hard, and how can people possibly blame Adams? I just gave the stats, zero yac, he caught 11 and never got to make forward progress once, Tampa's defense out maned our offense mostly because we where all out of impact offensive players, anyone that doesn't think a Randal Cobb type player wouldn't have helped our effort simply refuses to play with a full deck here, and you wonder why I'am frustrated Yoho? sorry I will not change my viewpoint about this, if Guty had brought in a top slot guy last year as he did this year I wouldn't be complaining, Rodgers probably, well maybe, might not be all upset either, though I admit that is sorta a reach

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 11:06

Pettine needed to give King over the top support, not just once, but at least twice that we know of, sure you can probably think of situations in other games that compare, but two wrongs don't make it right, the firing of Pettine, or his not being resigned had plenty to do with those brain farts, your just doing what you always do now, muddying up context, when Capers screwed up you blamed Capers, but since you and others want to shade blame to our best players, well we can't blame Pettine, that would lesson the culpability to blame Rodgers, (disrupted almost constantly the whole game) Adams (double and triple covered constantly, 11 catches on 14 targets for 65 yards and almost zero yac) and Aaron Jones who fumbled twice, with the second one being a game ender, never mind that he never had a open lane to run through since the blocking was so putrid.

Seriously why do you do this? It's exactly what BF00 was talking about. I mean you can see below I flat out and blank out stated that Kevin King and our tackles were the largest liabilities in the game. Which is something however that you don't spend much time talking about. No instead you keep rehashing it was the GM's fault due to not bringing in a slot WR to help Rodgers out when inside the 8 yardline.

But I don't understand why you keep doing this. Nobody is disagreeing with you that Pettine not giving King help, especially with a known injury, was a significant reason for losing. MLF thought the same and Pettine has been demoted to Quality Control coach for the Bears as a result.

But you threaten me of muddying waters when this whole post is exactly that. We all know the reasons we lost. The difference between the "Group A" and "Group B" as YoHo stated is Group B has no problem assigning blame and rehashing all reasons we came up short.

Whereas Group A just for the life of them finds reason to defend the star players of a team.

go pak go wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 10:35

I mean this can be said literally about every position, every side of the ball and every team.

"If we could have had a better player at X, we would have been better". That's not a bold statement. I could say that for literally any position on the squad.

But when you had a team that proved it could be successful with the unit that was in place and there are multiple plays, not just one or two, but multiple plays and multiple chances missed primarily by the offensive stars (Rodgers, Adams and Jones)it brings support that if the stars would have played to their expected level on just one additional play out of the 4 to 6 plays that were missed, the Packers could have still won even with the significant liabilities of Kevin King, Will Redmond and our two tackles on that day.

and why wouldn't my position be that we lacked offensive impact players on that last drive, we didn't have any, Adams was mauled, the other receivers couldn't get open prior to the pass rush forcing Rodgers to scramble, and your (and others) response has been he shoulda done something, run (when that lber was set and ready had he done so, or have had perifial vison to see boundary to boundary as that pass rush was closing in, your comments are beyond silly.

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2021 11:25

well how about better jags then, also the star player mistakes stand out more, just because the Stars are watched more intently, Rodgers as good as he is isn't perfect, he can't see side line to sideline, just because a player is open at one instant he very likely was not a instint prior,

And our difference between you and me is I say, "but isn't that his job?" If he is being paid and lauded as the best there is...shouldn't he be able to make those plays?

There are really two ways of building a roster.

1. Have a few studs and rely on the studs to carry the team by elevating those below them to play above themselves while also producing at a high level individually when the team needs it most. (think 1996 Packers)

2. Have limited star power but have a team with no weakness. Everyone is solid but nobody is top 3 or higher.

The Packers are often Route #1 where we are top heavy in terms of talent and resource allocation. The Bucs were #2 this past year. Both paths show they can win it all because both paths have won it all.

I actually think the 2020 Packers was significantly better at having the JAGS elevate their play compared to 2019 which is why I think the 2020 roster was significantly better. The other significant change was the Smith Brothers dropped in 2020 but Rodgers ascended like crazy and I think a more effective QB is better than a more effective Pass rush.

The Packers are constructed like #1 but I feel like Group A wants the Packers to be constructed like #2 while still getting to keep the stars. And that's just not how life works when you have a limitation or theory of constraints capacity of available resources unless your GM has a stretch of abnormal hits on draft picks and UDFA pickups.