2023 Packers Defense Expectations?

[Drj820]

Sorry, baffling that you thought we never tried that.

Tried it once. Guess we should never try it again right?

And again, imo Barry has a lot better tools than Pettine did. Pettine had one young quality corner, very poor ILB play, and one quality interior DLmen.

All of those issues have been addressed in last couple years.

And, final point…Pettine was brought in for McCarthy. Lafleur decided he wanted his own guy. In that next hire, I don’t think Barry has a history of being that guy for any of the HCs he’s served under.

Still baffled that I would want a top chef when year after year we buy top ingredients?

I feel like you are deliberately trying not to understand just to argue.

It is baffling to me that you wouldn’t consider both Petinne and Capers as extremely similar to the situation in Miami which you said you wanted us to do and said we never tried.

Enjoy your day.

Based on the lombardis I received for my post, others seemed to understand my point. Sorry that you missed it.

Capers did a good job when he had talent. Pettine did not have the same level of talent. Barry has the most talent we’ve ever had in terms of draft resources, and I don’t think his history shows he is the chef to cook up a top 5 defense.

Sorry this is confusing to you.

[lupedafiasco]

A strong defensive front can make up for anything so with another addition the the pass rush and run defense that should be able to carry the defense. Especially if we are a playoff team because the way coverage rules are relaxed more.

That said the secondary is very bad. I’ve been pretty vocal since day one about how bad I think Stokes is. Same for Savage. Douglas is alright but he only excels in zones. The entire safety room is questionable.

It is very important Quay makes a jump, Clark returns to form, and Wyatt ends up being something.

[Yoop]

Tried it once. Guess we should never try it again right?

And again, imo Barry has a lot better tools than Pettine did. Pettine had one young quality corner, very poor ILB play, and one quality interior DLmen.

All of those issues have been addressed in last couple years.

And, final point…Pettine was brought in for McCarthy. Lafleur decided he wanted his own guy. In that next hire, I don’t think Barry has a history of being that guy for any of the HCs he’s served under.

Still baffled that I would want a top chef when year after year we buy top ingredients?

I feel like you are deliberately trying not to understand just to argue.

It is baffling to me that you wouldn’t consider both Petinne and Capers as extremely similar to the situation in Miami which you said you wanted us to do and said we never tried.

Enjoy your day.

Based on the lombardis I received for my post, others seemed to understand my point. Sorry that you missed it.

Capers did a good job when he had talent. Pettine did not have the same level of talent. Barry has the most talent we’ve ever had in terms of draft resources, and I don’t think his history shows he is the chef to cook up a top 5 defense.

Sorry this is confusing to you.

I think 2019 we where top 5 in the league with pass rush, great pass rush covers for secondary weakness, and the lack of it makes the secondary look worse then it probably is, and to me that explains some of the coverage issues we saw.

again players don't throw tantrums as Savage did for nothing, and secondary coaches don't get fired for being successful, 2 and 2 actually does amount to four Lafleur, Guty decided that Jerry Gray was the bigger problem then Barry, and I tend to think they are right, we saw how well Savage again played in the slot, just as with the last half of 2020, Lafleur said he is a safety, so we'll see how that works out.

I think my comments blend with the direction of the draft, 3 of our high picks where dedicated to improving the pass rush, Barry needs to use more cover 2 zone and more man under, I think Alexander and Douglas convinced him of that.

[Labrev]

Regarding Joe Barry and 2023, anyone else getting Bob Sanders circa 2008 deja vu?

I have thought about it, but I feel like our defense has too much talent this year for it to get bad enough to fire Barry.

[YoHoChecko]

I don’t agree with [mention]lupedafiasco[/mention] that the secondary is bad.

I think the secondary is bad at what Joe Barry does. That’s why I’m frustrated with him as the coach. His style seems totally mismatched for our personnel. I think all of our corners are better for a more man-heavy scheme as long as you protect Rasul from deep speed.

If Barry can’t see what his players are good at and adjust—whether or not his adjustments agree with what I think his adjustments should be—then he needs to go.

We’ve seen adjustments that lead to improvements. They just come late and inconsistently. This is his third year with this core; he should have a great feel for what they can do and where they excel and how he can improve.

This is his shot to show it or go

[bud fox]

How do you get from my comment to your response?

Guess I was wondering if you agreed with my main point that Barry isnt the right chef for 8 first rounders, or if you were just picking something to be contrarian about?

You gave a specific example from around the league that was frankly baffling to me. Was maybe hoping youd elaborate on that instead of transitioning to an unrelated topic to what I quoted.

You don't understand ... if you have Wonton noodle soup and beef Wellington you also need soy sauce and a nice jus ... with salt and pepper.

[lupedafiasco]

I don’t agree with @lupedafiasco that the secondary is bad.

I think the secondary is bad at what Joe Barry does. That’s why I’m frustrated with him as the coach. His style seems totally mismatched for our personnel. I think all of our corners are better for a more man-heavy scheme as long as you protect Rasul from deep speed.

If Barry can’t see what his players are good at and adjust—whether or not his adjustments agree with what I think his adjustments should be—then he needs to go.

We’ve seen adjustments that lead to improvements. They just come late and inconsistently. This is his third year with this core; he should have a great feel for what they can do and where they excel and how he can improve.

This is his shot to show it or go

I dont know how you can disagree. Stokes has been bad. Savage has been bad. We don’t have any safeties to say they’re going to change the atrocity that was last season at the position.

Jaire is great. That’s it.

[Yoop]

I don’t agree with @lupedafiasco that the secondary is bad.

I think the secondary is bad at what Joe Barry does. That’s why I’m frustrated with him as the coach. His style seems totally mismatched for our personnel. I think all of our corners are better for a more man-heavy scheme as long as you protect Rasul from deep speed.

If Barry can’t see what his players are good at and adjust—whether or not his adjustments agree with what I think his adjustments should be—then he needs to go.

We’ve seen adjustments that lead to improvements. They just come late and inconsistently. This is his third year with this core; he should have a great feel for what they can do and where they excel and how he can improve.

This is his shot to show it or go

I dont know how you can disagree. Stokes has been bad. Savage has been bad. We don’t have any safeties to say they’re going to change the atrocity that was last season at the position.

Jaire is great. That’s it.

players fit one scheme better then they do others, our corners fit man coverage better then zone, your so quick to dismiss a player like Stokes based on just one season in the league, between Barry and Gray they screwed the pooch pretty good last year, and Gray is gone, I can just imagine that Alexander, Savage, Douglas, had plenty to say prior to that firing.

we all thought Barry was the reason the secondary sucked, more likely Gray's terminology didn't help either, and that confusion has been a issue long before Barry got here.

[Scott4Pack]

Expectations must always be high, especially at the conclusion of the draft.

This defense might resemble the one from the second half of last year more than the first half. But we can’t know yet. I’m worried it’ll take them time to gel and leave gaping holes for rush attacks, like last year. The pass rush could and should improve.

We could’ve improved our tools last year a bit, but we didn’t. Our confidence, for whatever reason, was misplaced. I’ll be happy in this rebuil…, uhm, I mean rebooting year to have the D be average. Looking for better next year, quite honestly.

I’m also not a fan of Barry at all. He should’ve been let go after December. He doesn’t use the D aggressively at all, as was first advertised. And I would’ve let him go once that became obvious.

[lupedafiasco]

I don’t agree with @lupedafiasco that the secondary is bad.

I think the secondary is bad at what Joe Barry does. That’s why I’m frustrated with him as the coach. His style seems totally mismatched for our personnel. I think all of our corners are better for a more man-heavy scheme as long as you protect Rasul from deep speed.

If Barry can’t see what his players are good at and adjust—whether or not his adjustments agree with what I think his adjustments should be—then he needs to go.

We’ve seen adjustments that lead to improvements. They just come late and inconsistently. This is his third year with this core; he should have a great feel for what they can do and where they excel and how he can improve.

This is his shot to show it or go

I dont know how you can disagree. Stokes has been bad. Savage has been bad. We don’t have any safeties to say they’re going to change the atrocity that was last season at the position.

Jaire is great. That’s it.

players fit one scheme better then they do others, our corners fit man coverage better then zone, your so quick to dismiss a player like Stokes based on just one season in the league, between Barry and Gray they screwed the pooch pretty good last year, and Gray is gone, I can just imagine that Alexander, Savage, Douglas, had plenty to say prior to that firing.

we all thought Barry was the reason the secondary sucked, more likely Gray's terminology didn't help either, and that confusion has been a issue long before Barry got here.

My evaluation of Stokes from day one is he’s not a very good player. From the time we drafted him I thought it was a bad pick. Very fast player with good size but his feet are just all over the place at the receivers breakpoint that he’s always out of position.

And I said after his rookie year it was a good year for a rookie but it wasn’t a good year for a CB in general. He was just ok and we really saw all the issues I said he was going to have in his sophomore season.

Stokes definitely has potential with his physical gift but he is so technically bad I don’t think it matters much. He’s got a long ways to go. It is year 3 so we will see if he improves his feet and balance in coverage.

[Pckfn23]

The main issue with Stokes in year 2 was not his feet or balance, it was his recognition. He was out of position a lot in his zone play.

It is yet another example of not playing to his players' strengths.

[YoHoChecko]

Joe Barry's presser today inspired no confidence in any changes to adapt to reality.

But also, the press didn't particularly ask great questions to push him.

[Drj820]

Joe Barry's presser today inspired no confidence in any changes to adapt to reality.

But also, the press didn't particularly ask great questions to push him.

in the ecosystem of local-ish media for Green Bay, "blogger" is a more respectable title than "beat-writer".

[YoHoChecko]

Joe Barry's presser today inspired no confidence in any changes to adapt to reality.

But also, the press didn't particularly ask great questions to push him.

I just want someone to say "our CBs are best when they attack opponents at the line of scrimmage. Why don't we do that more?


It's that simple. It really is.

[BSA]

Why don't we do that more?

Came across a couple of really interesting articles on defense and thought I'd share them here. Sheds some light on why/how the Barry-Packers play off coverage so often and why they drafted Colby Wooden and Karl Brooks on DL. 1st article talks about the TITE front, a defensive alignment specifically deployed to counter all the spread offense concepts we see in the NFL. 2nd article talks about the coverage behind that front

Taking a look at one of the most popular defensive alignments to combat the spread offense
https://www.bigblueview.com/2020/6/26/2 ... m-analysis

You could also be forgiven for looking at the 4i-0-4i Tite Front and thinking it’s just the old 2-gap 3-4 front. But while a Tite Front with three down linemen might look like a slight variation on a 3-4 front, there are two very big differences which make it such a headache for offenses.

The first is the alignment of the defensive ends. In a traditional 2-gap 3-4 front, the defensive ends play the 5-technique, lined up across from the offensive tackles’ outside shoulders. In the Tite Front, they are 4i-techniques, lined up across from the tackles’ inside shoulders. While moving a couple feet might not seem like a big deal, shade techniques (namely 4i and 2i) make for very uncomfortable blocks for offensive linemen. Traditional blocking schemes struggle to account for them cleanly — are they the tackle or guard’s responsibility? What about the linebackers and EDGE players? The blocks themselves are at an awkward distance and angle.

This is a really important point: This alignment makes it much harder on the OGs and OTs to hit their aiming points on the block and it also takes away the Center-OG combo block, a staple of ZBS run games. That helps us understand why the Packers drafted (2) undersized DLs in Brooks and Wooden. On draft day, some lamented that they'll get blown out on double teams. And they would. But by aligning them further outside, no way the Center can get to them. So I think we'll see more of the 4i - 0- 4i Tite front in 2023. ( TITE = Tackle Inside the TE)

The other reason to draft these "tweeners" on the DL is that with all of the sideways passing we see in the NFL- the DL have to have more lateral ability. Instead of dropping anchor and screwing themselves into the turf- they are on the move and getting outside to make a play

And the other area where this can be a plus is in chasing down all of the running QBs we see in the NFL ( Hurts, Jackson, Fields etc) These guys have more mobility and if you protect them with the 4i alignment, they aren't a liability in the run game, while still giving you pass rush from the DL. DCs prefer to play zone behind the TITE front and that leads to more off coverage from the CBs.

More on that in this article here, talking about COVER-4

https://www.bigblueview.com/2020/6/14/2 ... o-beat-it

Some great insight for your summer reading. No defense is perfect, but it seems like the TITE front is a better one for stopping the run - an area where GB has struggled under Barry and Pettine. And the Packers 2023 draft choices on the DL point in this direction.

[lupedafiasco]

Joe Barry's presser today inspired no confidence in any changes to adapt to reality.

But also, the press didn't particularly ask great questions to push him.

I just want someone to say "our CBs are best when they attack opponents at the line of scrimmage. Why don't we do that more?


It's that simple. It really is.

Asking questions the Packers don’t like will get their press pass taken away.

[Scott4Pack]

Why don't we do that more?

Came across a couple of really interesting articles on defense and thought I'd share them here. Sheds some light on why/how the Barry-Packers play off coverage so often and why they drafted Colby Wooden and Karl Brooks on DL. 1st article talks about the TITE front, a defensive alignment specifically deployed to counter all the spread offense concepts we see in the NFL. 2nd article talks about the coverage behind that front

Taking a look at one of the most popular defensive alignments to combat the spread offense
https://www.bigblueview.com/2020/6/26/2 ... m-analysis

You could also be forgiven for looking at the 4i-0-4i Tite Front and thinking it’s just the old 2-gap 3-4 front. But while a Tite Front with three down linemen might look like a slight variation on a 3-4 front, there are two very big differences which make it such a headache for offenses.

The first is the alignment of the defensive ends. In a traditional 2-gap 3-4 front, the defensive ends play the 5-technique, lined up across from the offensive tackles’ outside shoulders. In the Tite Front, they are 4i-techniques, lined up across from the tackles’ inside shoulders. While moving a couple feet might not seem like a big deal, shade techniques (namely 4i and 2i) make for very uncomfortable blocks for offensive linemen. Traditional blocking schemes struggle to account for them cleanly — are they the tackle or guard’s responsibility? What about the linebackers and EDGE players? The blocks themselves are at an awkward distance and angle.

This is a really important point: This alignment makes it much harder on the OGs and OTs to hit their aiming points on the block and it also takes away the Center-OG combo block, a staple of ZBS run games. That helps us understand why the Packers drafted (2) undersized DLs in Brooks and Wooden. On draft day, some lamented that they'll get blown out on double teams. And they would. But by aligning them further outside, no way the Center can get to them. So I think we'll see more of the 4i - 0- 4i Tite front in 2023. ( TITE = Tackle Inside the TE)

The other reason to draft these "tweeners" on the DL is that with all of the sideways passing we see in the NFL- the DL have to have more lateral ability. Instead of dropping anchor and screwing themselves into the turf- they are on the move and getting outside to make a play

And the other area where this can be a plus is in chasing down all of the running QBs we see in the NFL ( Hurts, Jackson, Fields etc) These guys have more mobility and if you protect them with the 4i alignment, they aren't a liability in the run game, while still giving you pass rush from the DL. DCs prefer to play zone behind the TITE front and that leads to more off coverage from the CBs.

More on that in this article here, talking about COVER-4

https://www.bigblueview.com/2020/6/14/2 ... o-beat-it

Some great insight for your summer reading. No defense is perfect, but it seems like the TITE front is a better one for stopping the run - an area where GB has struggled under Barry and Pettine. And the Packers 2023 draft choices on the DL point in this direction.

I’ve already read that first article. It is excellent! One quote that stands out to me, as it discusses the design of the D, is this:

Like the Bear Front which forms the foundation for the Tite Front, the Tite is an aggressive defense. It is designed to attack and disrupt offenses. One of the best ways for a defense to do that is to attack gaps.

I suppose one of the main points is that Joe Barry should not use this scheme in a passive way. He needs his LBs to anticipate and play well and he needs to use the suitable amount of aggressiveness and unpredictability. Green Bay fans have longed for this from our defenses for many years. Perhaps, we FINALLY have a roster that is good enough to play aggressively, create turnovers, and not get burned often.

[TheSkeptic]

Expectations should be on when Gary returns to 100%, whether Stokes earns his position back, whether Walker has a 2nd year improvement and whether LVN plays like a rookie or a starter. And of course the lack of new injuries.

If Stokes is competent, Douglas can fill the slot or a safety.

Either Gary needs to come back to 100% early or LVN needs to play like a veteran. Ideally both so there can be a rotation.

Walker need the 2nd year jump that every player hopes for.

It would not hurt if either TJ or Wyatt or Wooden develops into a good starter, not just a rotational player.

If all these things turn out well, who needs a great DC? Any halfway competent coach ought to be able to make this a top 5 D. or even quarter-way competent.

[BSA]

I suppose one of the main points is that Joe Barry should not use this scheme in a passive way. He needs to use the suitable amount of aggressiveness and unpredictability. Green Bay fans have longed for this from our defenses for many years. Perhaps, we FINALLY have a roster that is good enough to play aggressively, create turnovers, and not get burned often.

One of the things Gute talked about during the offseason was how hard it was for GB to manufacture consistent pressure after Gary went down.
It puts a huge strain on the DBs because they don't have the benefit of pressure forcing the QB to get the ball out. In those situations, many DCs will pull their horns in and tone down the aggression- because you can really get burned deep.

So its possible that some of passivity we think we see was the result of not enough pressure impacting the opposing QBs. Packers were in top half of league in pressures before Gary dropped out, after game 9 it was a huge struggle- and forced GB to get creative and conservative.
Lose slowly instead of the big play

The other comment I'd make is that when fans see the CBs playing off, they generally hate it. But in zone - playing off gives them vision to the QB and the proper angles to attack the ball, jump the route and watch the WR. Like anything- there's a time and place for it and playing off isn't the best answer on all down/distances. But it also isn't a "bad" defense every time we see it either

Mixing things up is huge, gotta keep the QBs guessing and I think that's an area where Joe Barry could use an assistant in his ear.
Maybe MLF is that ear-guy in 2023. GB also brought in Defensive Passing Game coordinator Greg Williams and hopefully he can offer some insight on play calls/deployment of the DBs as the season rolls along.

Adding Gary & LVN, plus a year of growth for Enagbare + improvements on DL seems like a recipe for pressure improvement in 2023 - and that's when you'd see more aggression from the DBs.

And I'll add one final note on DBs and takeaways. Despite the plethora of negative comments on Barry, the Safeties, the CBs...
The 2022 Packers were very good at generating INTs.

* Their opponent INT % was # 2 in the entire league- sandwiched between Pitt and SF - two teams with outstanding defenses.
* Their number of INTs/ game was # 5 in the entire league, that's noteworthy.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/interception-pct

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/interception-pct

[BSA]

from PFF

We all know Jaire is a stud...he's top dog according to this one:

"Jaire Alexander, undoubtedly one of the best cornerbacks in football, brings lockdown ability to the Packers' defense.
Alexander's 91.9 coverage grade since 2018 is tied with Stephon Gilmore for the best among all cornerbacks"

impressive