Page 36 of 42
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 10:48
by packman114
Yoop wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 10:18
Lafleur commits to the run plenty when he has RB's and OL blocking that warrants that commitment.
how hard can you push run plays with the loss of Jones, a injured Dillon? how do you develop Love if all ya do is attempt to run.
your confusing tough, with inadequate, this line grades mid 20's run blocking, Dillon is not a feature RB, you saw how a hobbling Jones is so much better, but since he's been injure how many touches should he get.
this ragging on Lafleur for not firing Barry has gotten blown way out of proportion imho, sure to sav e face he probably should fire him now, but that sends a terrible message to prospects to replace him, sometimes all ya can do is tread water
Then how come after almost every game MLF says he got away from the run too soon? If I'm reading the play sheet correctly Jones was in on 29 plays and ran the ball 13x. Taylor was in on 26 plays and ran the ball 1x! Yeah Taylor didn't go out of bounds against the Giants when he should have but geez he has looked pretty good running the ball in his limited carries. No excuse not to run the ball more. If for no other reason it keeps the clock moving and our &%$@ defense off the field.
How many games do you see Derrick Henry averaging 2ypc in the first half only to break out in the 2nd half of games. Running the ball is a mindset. Even the freaking Bills who pass more than us, ran the ball down the Cowboys throats. If you don't have a great back than run by committee. We won a Super Bowl with Starks as our #1 back in the playoffs!
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 11:09
by Drj820
Yoop wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 10:47
Drj820 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 10:39
Yoop wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 10:33
no I didn't say that, re read what I said
and no, OL don't commit to run blocking, there not born to be run blockers, gesus it is a learned skill, if they have those skills when they get to the nfl it's because there college team did a ton of running the ball, take a look at how college offenses operate, many rarely even run the ball, football has been a passing sport for 40 years Buddy
Tough teams develop run blockers first. Tough teams slam the ball down your throat, then throw it over the top when you move guys into the box to stop the run. Tough teams run it even if its not working in order to stay balanced, establish their will, and bruise the other team.
defenses hate playing tough teams because they know they are gonna get popped in the mouth for 60 minutes come sunday.
only in the fantasy land you live in
, again, a healthy Jones and Dillon produced over 2K the 2 seasons prior to this one, Lafluer does run the ball to start games when he has the RB's to do it and the blocking can support it.
Run blocking is harder then pass pro, very few college OL are good at both.
why do you think zone blocking was developed, it's easier then gap blocking or man o man blocking when it comes to run blocking,
Are you sure run blocking is known to be harder than pass pro?
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 11:16
by Yoop
packman114 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 10:48
Yoop wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 10:18
Lafleur commits to the run plenty when he has RB's and OL blocking that warrants that commitment.
how hard can you push run plays with the loss of Jones, a injured Dillon? how do you develop Love if all ya do is attempt to run.
your confusing tough, with inadequate, this line grades mid 20's run blocking, Dillon is not a feature RB, you saw how a hobbling Jones is so much better, but since he's been injure how many touches should he get.
this ragging on Lafleur for not firing Barry has gotten blown way out of proportion imho, sure to sav e face he probably should fire him now, but that sends a terrible message to prospects to replace him, sometimes all ya can do is tread water
Then how come after almost every game MLF says he got away from the run too soon? If I'm reading the play sheet correctly Jones was in on 29 plays and ran the ball 13x. Taylor was in on 26 plays and ran the ball 1x! Yeah Taylor didn't go out of bounds against the Giants when he should have but geez he has looked pretty good running the ball in his limited carries. No excuse not to run the ball more. If for no other reason it keeps the clock moving and our &%$@ defense off the field.
How many games do you see Derrick Henry averaging 2ypc in the first half only to break out in the 2nd half of games. Running the ball is a mindset. Even the freaking Bills who pass more than us, ran the ball down the Cowboys throats. If you don't have a great back than run by committee. We won a Super Bowl with Starks as our #1 back in the playoffs!
coaches say comments like that often simply to get a sports writer off there back, and your right sometimes it seems coaches abandon the run at times, and some times the blocking isn't consistent such as ours, how many times do ya need to see short yardage run fails?
It comes down to what in the coaches mind offers the best avenue to success, and Love and these receivers win that hands down over the run ability right now, I was hoping for more touches for Jones, but it was obvious except for several well blocked runs he was doing most of it on his own, same with Dillon and Taylor, our run blocking imo is a lot worse then people think. jmo.
seriously if not for play action, and the surprise that we ran taking defenses off guard, our run game would really nose dive
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 11:17
by Yoop
Drj820 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 11:09
Yoop wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 10:47
Drj820 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 10:39
Tough teams develop run blockers first. Tough teams slam the ball down your throat, then throw it over the top when you move guys into the box to stop the run. Tough teams run it even if its not working in order to stay balanced, establish their will, and bruise the other team.
defenses hate playing tough teams because they know they are gonna get popped in the mouth for 60 minutes come sunday.
only in the fantasy land you live in
, again, a healthy Jones and Dillon produced over 2K the 2 seasons prior to this one, Lafluer does run the ball to start games when he has the RB's to do it and the blocking can support it.
Run blocking is harder then pass pro, very few college OL are good at both.
why do you think zone blocking was developed, it's easier then gap blocking or man o man blocking when it comes to run blocking,
Are you sure run blocking is known to be harder than pass pro?
absolutely positive.
don't take my word for it though, just investigate it
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 11:20
by Pugger
APB wrote: ↑19 Dec 2023 17:41
Getting back to potential DC candidates, one name I hadn't considered but, now that I hear it, am intrigued is Dave Aranda.
I remember he did a nice job when he was the DC in Madison.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 11:24
by Pugger
Drj820 wrote: ↑19 Dec 2023 21:43
If Barry was openly disobeying the direction Lafleur has instructed him to take the defense…he would be fired
Lafleur has either given Barry NO leadership or direction on the defense (because Lafleur is a HC that only knows one phase of the game)
Or Barry is calling a style that Lafleur wants him to run.
This is why Lafleur hasn’t canned the guy. If Barry was defiant, he’d be gone.
Blame lacoach
OR LaFleur is letting Barry run the D as he sees fit. I just have this gut feeling Barry isn't going anywhere, even this offseason. This blindness/stubbornness by our HC might be his undoing.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 11:34
by Pckfn23
Preemptive anger, is just a bad way to live. Just because LaFleur has yet to fire Barry does not mean he will not by this off-season. Should he not, then anger and pitchforks for LaFleur. Cross that bridge when we come to it instead of creating reasons to be angry now.
Do I want Barry fired? Yes. Now? Sure. Do I see reason why we wouldn't? Yes. 3 reasons actually, Lions, Chargers, Chiefs. It can be done for the remaining 3 games. Will we? Don't know. Does Barry put his players in position enough to succeed? No
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 11:47
by Pckfn23
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 11:51
by Pugger
musclestang wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 05:48
and this passive, let things happen attitude is pervasive throughout this defense and team. It's as evident on the field as it is in the coaching decisions. I've never been one to have knee jerk reactions and be a fire this guy, fire that guy, cut him, get someone else here person. I have years of evidence on another board, I realize I haven't been here that long for you guys to know it yet, but saying we should be rid of Barry is not a current revelation.
It's the same stuff. Week after week year after year. The fact he noted a problem in the beginning of the year and there is still no attempt to fix it as this point in the year and we have Linebackers chasing excellent receivers is a joke. Once is a lot. 4 times a game is a pencil whipping clinic on an inept DC.
Opposing teams score or sometimes we get a turnover. We dominate 2 downs, but 3rd and whatever never matters because the other side can Beat Barry like a freaking drum all game long. They know exactly where the giants voids are going to be and 95% of the time we make it look so easy for them.
But I guess there is nothing we can do... best to just stick with it. I get the sentiment. Trust me, There is value to just putting your nose down and working. Figure it out. Stuff gets tuff, deal with it. Succeed despite the environment around you. I'm all for that, i wish the players would adopt that. Trust me, I'm sending every player that is quitting out of here along with Barry at season's end.
BUT, Barry has had opportunity after opportunity after opportunity to get this right and it's the same dang stuff. Sooner or later the parent tells the child it's enough.
You hit the nail on the head. For some reason Barry (and/or MLF) cannot fix this. It is almost of the end of December. They've had
weeks to figure it out. Unless the opposition turns it over we cannot stop them from marching down the field and scoring. Even when they screw up with a penalty they can overcome it by converting 3rd downs at an alarming rate. If Barry is back in 2024 we all have to question MLF's judgement here. We will never be better than this as long as this defense is schemed like this. I hope for change.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 11:58
by Pugger
I see the league has changed the rule regarding blocking assistants from interviewing for another club's job. Does this include lateral moves?
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 12:00
by Pugger
Yoop wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 08:18
Drj820 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 07:46
BF004 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 07:17
There is certainly evidence Matt isn’t content with some of the play calling. Source: Matt’s mouth.
He clearly isn’t happy with the communication, which I would imagine is a lot to do with the coaching staff preparing these guys and getting them ready. Not sure how much or little Matt is involved there.
It is ultimately all a failure on Matt’s shoulders. But it’s also not like he’s calling plays on D and Barry is just a man in the middle.
I think not letting Barry pick his own defensive staff has direct correlation to communication issues.
I think Barry's defense was better with AR as the QB, but I admit it may have just seemed that way
I don't think this defense is any different this year than it has been in the past. Last year when AR wasn't playing at an MVP level the team struggled just like it is now.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 12:05
by Pugger
Drj820 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 10:05
sounds like what ive always thought.
A sign of this is when we would go to the line on offense with two available plays and check into one of them
based on what the defense showed or made most available to us
I always hated that. That should be reserved for extreme audibles like when you have a run play called and you see the defense has 8 in the box. Or come to the line with two pass plays and check into the one that looks most available.
I always hated letting the defense decide whether we were going to run or pass based on what they were aligned to stop.
A tough team that is committed to run the ball says "we are going to slam this rock down your throat and you will not stop it". A tough team establishes the run and mows back defenders no matter if they are lined up to stop it or not.
This passive mentality is endemic throughout the team
And this waiting to see what the defense is doing could be a reason why when we are on offense the play clock is always almost at zero every time we snap the ball. I'm with you -
we should be dictating the action, forcing our opponent to stop us.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 12:09
by Pugger
Yoop wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 10:18
Drj820 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 10:05
sounds like what ive always thought.
A sign of this is when we would go to the line on offense with two available plays and check into one of them
based on what the defense showed or made most available to us
I always hated that. That should be reserved for extreme audibles like when you have a run play called and you see the defense has 8 in the box. Or come to the line with two pass plays and check into the one that looks most available.
I always hated letting the defense decide whether we were going to run or pass based on what they were aligned to stop.
A tough team that is committed to run the ball says "we are going to slam this rock down your throat and you will not stop it". A tough team establishes the run and mows back defenders no matter if they are lined up to stop it or not.
This passive mentality is endemic throughout the team
Lafleur commits to the run plenty when he has RB's and OL blocking that warrants that commitment.
how hard can you push run plays with the loss of Jones, a injured Dillon? how do you develop Love if all ya do is attempt to run.
your confusing tough, with inadequate, this line grades mid 20's run blocking, Dillon is not a feature RB, you saw how a hobbling Jones is so much better, but since he's been injure how many touches should he get.
this ragging on Lafleur for not firing Barry has gotten blown way out of proportion imho, sure to sav e face he probably should fire him now, but that sends a terrible message to prospects to replace him, sometimes all ya can do is tread water
MLF talks about running the ball but he usually abandons it if it isn't working right away. He shows he is enamored with the tricky stuff instead. I still shake my head when I think about him calling for a end-around when we went for 2 last week.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 12:10
by Yoop
Pugger wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 11:58
I see the league has changed the rule regarding blocking assistants from interviewing for another club's job. Does this include lateral moves?
Sorry Pugger, I'am so behind on the stuff the league allows or forbids these days, but I think your discussing PO game times, personally I don't think coaches on teams in PO contention should be allowed to interview, I hated it when Mike Holmgren did it during that run up to the SB we lost, if you can remember Ron Wolf didn't like it either.
I think when ya still have a job to do , all focus should be directed there, saying that though, how can ya stop it, these guys all have cell phones and know how to use them, and the phone numbers to go with it.
personally I'am hoping Lafleur has made a ton of those type phone calls already.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 12:18
by Pugger
Yoop wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 12:10
Pugger wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 11:58
I see the league has changed the rule regarding blocking assistants from interviewing for another club's job. Does this include lateral moves?
Sorry Pugger, I'am so behind on the stuff the league allows or forbids these days, but I think your discussing PO game times, personally I don't think coaches on teams in PO contention should be allowed to interview, I hated it when Mike Holmgren did it during that run up to the SB we lost, if you can remember Ron Wolf didn't like it either.
I think when ya still have a job to do , all focus should be directed there, saying that though, how can ya stop it, these guys all have cell phones and know how to use them, and the phone numbers to go with it.
personally I'am hoping Lafleur has made a ton of those type phone calls already.
I just Googled it. At one time unless the next job was a promotion (an assistant to a coordinator) a team could block/deny another team from interviewing one of their coaches. What I read online just now isn't clear about if a team could block one of their coordinators from interviewing for another DC/OC job elsewhere.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 12:19
by Yoop
Pugger wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 12:09
Yoop wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 10:18
Drj820 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 10:05
sounds like what ive always thought.
A sign of this is when we would go to the line on offense with two available plays and check into one of them
based on what the defense showed or made most available to us
I always hated that. That should be reserved for extreme audibles like when you have a run play called and you see the defense has 8 in the box. Or come to the line with two pass plays and check into the one that looks most available.
I always hated letting the defense decide whether we were going to run or pass based on what they were aligned to stop.
A tough team that is committed to run the ball says "we are going to slam this rock down your throat and you will not stop it". A tough team establishes the run and mows back defenders no matter if they are lined up to stop it or not.
This passive mentality is endemic throughout the team
Lafleur commits to the run plenty when he has RB's and OL blocking that warrants that commitment.
how hard can you push run plays with the loss of Jones, a injured Dillon? how do you develop Love if all ya do is attempt to run.
your confusing tough, with inadequate, this line grades mid 20's run blocking, Dillon is not a feature RB, you saw how a hobbling Jones is so much better, but since he's been injure how many touches should he get.
this ragging on Lafleur for not firing Barry has gotten blown way out of proportion imho, sure to sav e face he probably should fire him now, but that sends a terrible message to prospects to replace him, sometimes all ya can do is tread water
MLF talks about running the ball but he usually abandons it if it isn't working right away. He shows he is enamored with the tricky stuff instead. I still shake my head when I think about him calling for a end-around when we went for 2 last week.
it's hard to do the stuff you'd like to do when doing so has inconsistent results, again people act as though we have very good or even average run blocking, we don't, and far from it, we rank around 25th in the league run blocking, plus we are very limited concerning RB's, Jones has struggled all season to stay health, if ya want to play him some in every game going forward then ya have to decrease his touches, Dillon also has had health issues most of the season, Taylor has gray matter running out his ears, why would any coach trust him, he's proven to be unreliable.
also a coach has to lean to what on his offense has worked best, if smash mouth isn't working then deception is the fall back plan, and whether people agree or not, deception has worked the best, just can't do the same thing to much.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 12:21
by Pugger
Yoop wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 12:19
Pugger wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 12:09
Yoop wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 10:18
Lafleur commits to the run plenty when he has RB's and OL blocking that warrants that commitment.
how hard can you push run plays with the loss of Jones, a injured Dillon? how do you develop Love if all ya do is attempt to run.
your confusing tough, with inadequate, this line grades mid 20's run blocking, Dillon is not a feature RB, you saw how a hobbling Jones is so much better, but since he's been injure how many touches should he get.
this ragging on Lafleur for not firing Barry has gotten blown way out of proportion imho, sure to sav e face he probably should fire him now, but that sends a terrible message to prospects to replace him, sometimes all ya can do is tread water
MLF talks about running the ball but he usually abandons it if it isn't working right away. He shows he is enamored with the tricky stuff instead. I still shake my head when I think about him calling for a end-around when we went for 2 last week.
it's hard to do the stuff you'd like to do when doing so has inconsistent results, again people act as though we have very good or even average run blocking, we don't, and far from it, we rank around 25th in the league run blocking, plus we are very limited concerning RB's, Jones has struggled all season to stay health, if ya want to play him some in every game going forward then ya have to decrease his touches, Dillon also has had health issues most of the season, Taylor has gray matter running out his ears, why would any coach trust him, he's proven to be unreliable.
also a coach has to lean to what on his offense has worked best, if smash mouth isn't working then deception is the fall back plan, and whether people agree or not, deception has worked the best, just can't do the same thing to much.
Yes, MLF can try a trick play once but don't keep doing it again and again.
As far as rushing - most teams will keep trying to run hoping to break one after a while, unless the score tells them to abandon the run because you are behind and it is late in the half/game.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 12:25
by Yoop
Pugger wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 12:18
Yoop wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 12:10
Pugger wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 11:58
I see the league has changed the rule regarding blocking assistants from interviewing for another club's job. Does this include lateral moves?
Sorry Pugger, I'am so behind on the stuff the league allows or forbids these days, but I think your discussing PO game times, personally I don't think coaches on teams in PO contention should be allowed to interview, I hated it when Mike Holmgren did it during that run up to the SB we lost, if you can remember Ron Wolf didn't like it either.
I think when ya still have a job to do , all focus should be directed there, saying that though, how can ya stop it, these guys all have cell phones and know how to use them, and the phone numbers to go with it.
personally I'am hoping Lafleur has made a ton of those type phone calls already.
I just Googled it. At one time unless the next job was a promotion (an assistant to a coordinator) a team could block/deny another team from interviewing one of their coaches. What I read online just now isn't clear about if a team could block one of their coordinators from interviewing for another DC/OC job elsewhere.
thats I think how I remember too, no lateral move unless approved by the teams, and since you couldn't find a revision to that, I expect that rule is still in place.
either way, as I said I think hires and fires are decided before the season ends in many cases, which is to say Lafleur could already be in touch under the table with friends he has around the league, they simply keep that to themselves till there allowed to openly interview prospects.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 12:28
by NCF
Yoop wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 12:25
Pugger wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 12:18
Yoop wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 12:10
Sorry Pugger, I'am so behind on the stuff the league allows or forbids these days, but I think your discussing PO game times, personally I don't think coaches on teams in PO contention should be allowed to interview, I hated it when Mike Holmgren did it during that run up to the SB we lost, if you can remember Ron Wolf didn't like it either.
I think when ya still have a job to do , all focus should be directed there, saying that though, how can ya stop it, these guys all have cell phones and know how to use them, and the phone numbers to go with it.
personally I'am hoping Lafleur has made a ton of those type phone calls already.
I just Googled it. At one time unless the next job was a promotion (an assistant to a coordinator) a team could block/deny another team from interviewing one of their coaches. What I read online just now isn't clear about if a team could block one of their coordinators from interviewing for another DC/OC job elsewhere.
thats I think how I remember too, no lateral move unless approved by the teams, and since you couldn't find a revision to that, I expect that rule is still in place.
either way, as I said I think hires and fires are decided before the season ends in many cases, which is to say Lafleur could already be in touch under the table with friends he has around the league, they simply keep that to themselves till there allowed to openly interview prospects.
That is the rule. The rule, previously, was that you could not leave for a new job, even if it was for a promotion, unless that promotion was to Head Coach.
Re: 2023 Packers Defense Expectations?
Posted: 20 Dec 2023 13:26
by Yoop
NCF wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 12:28
Yoop wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 12:25
Pugger wrote: ↑20 Dec 2023 12:18
I just Googled it. At one time unless the next job was a promotion (an assistant to a coordinator) a team could block/deny another team from interviewing one of their coaches. What I read online just now isn't clear about if a team could block one of their coordinators from interviewing for another DC/OC job elsewhere.
thats I think how I remember too, no lateral move unless approved by the teams, and since you couldn't find a revision to that, I expect that rule is still in place.
either way, as I said I think hires and fires are decided before the season ends in many cases, which is to say Lafleur could already be in touch under the table with friends he has around the league, they simply keep that to themselves till there allowed to openly interview prospects.
That is the rule. The rule, previously, was that you could not leave for a new job, even if it was for a promotion, unless that promotion was to Head Coach.
was that it? again I think if your employed and your team is in playoff contention then your responsibility is to stay focused on that till your season is over, I really lost respect for Mike Holmgren when he petitioned the Seahawks for that HCing gig the week of that PO game.